Difference between Appetite and Passion

[m1469]

I had a teacher with whom I used to have occasional long-distance phone-piano/music lessons with.  These were always sessions of tremendous outpouring from him to me.  As he gushed with ideas I would write down notes as fast as my hand would allow me.  I recently ran across a paper containing some of these notes and I read a part that I did not understand before, but these words are striking me now.  In speaking about teaching, he said :

"There is one primary duty (of the teacher), to instill in every child an understanding and appreciation for excellence."  He went on to say that "given the opportunity, and within the pool to pursue excellence, they learn the difference between appetite and passion."

What is the difference between appetite and passion to you?


m1469

[i_m_robot]

an appetite can be satisfied

[pianonut]

i like the previous post, but i sort of see them as going together - myself.  when you are passionate about something, you have a huge appetite for it.  you constantly want it.  and, with more and more practice, you refine the way you digest it.  itsead of gulping it down, you take smaller bites and just enjoy each as it comes.  having a large repertoire might not be everything (i totally agree) but it helps enormously.  you can learn so much from each piece and whatever is lacking in sightreading, rhythm understanding, fingering, interpretation (nuances), dynamic control --is sure to be covered the more you increase your repertoire. 

[Torp]

I know you weren't looking for dictionary definitions, but I often find the etymology of words says a lot about how they came into current usage and the underlying thoughts associated with those words.

ap•pe•tite
Etymology: Middle English apetit, from Middle French, from Latin appetitus, from appetere to strive after
Any of the instinctive desires necessary to keep up organic life; especially: the desire to eat.
An inherent craving.

This strikes me as being more autonomic, like the organs of our body, such as the heart, stomach and intestines, which are regulated by a part of the nervous system called the autonomic nervous system. In most situations, we are unaware of the workings of the ANS because it functions in an involuntary, reflexive manner.  This is what I think of when I think of appetite; it just happens, there's no emotional involvement.

pas•sion
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin passion-, passio suffering, being acted upon, from Latin pati to suffer
The emotions as distinguished from reason.
Intense, driving, or overmastering feeling or conviction.
Ardent affection.
A strong liking or desire for or devotion to some activity, object, or concept.

This speaks of emotional involvement; consciousness is involved.  Since the concept of suffering seems ingrained in the idea of passion, to me, when you are passionate about something you will strive for it, regardless of the pain involved.

Just some thoughts.....

Jef

[pianonut]

yes.  that kind of goes along with the 'starving musician' idea.  i've never seen a really fat classical pianist.  of course, if you don't take the dictionary as the last word, you could say that a musical appetite is likely to be had even by starving musicians.  they might spend their last dime on music (instead of food), thus starving to feed another appetite.

[pianonut]

seriously, i think you can take semantics and criticism too far.  what if one said to a student, "you have appetite but no passion."  it might be true, but would it help them learn it.  no.  it might discourage them.  so, the more music they learn, the more passion they will have (from hearing and playing).  so what if one person is more passionate than another.  it is sometimes not just the passion, but the heart of the performer.  if they are doing their best, then that is good.  if they can work harder - they have to be shown exact techniques to display more passion.  it seems like it should be something 'innate' but for many people it is working up speed, control of dynamics, nuances, etc. (specific things)

in music, as well as other disciplines, the people who are simply working hard but don't get places as fast as others are thought to be superfilous (should do something else).  but, in actuality, pianists need each other.  the not-as-passionate ones - to make the passionate ones look better  and the automatons to show the passionate ones a little humility (as they learn to bend their heads sideways - to avoid seeing the audience out of the corner of their eye - and pretend they are worried about memory lapses -when they can actually play for several hours straight).

[Torp]

i think you can take semantics and criticism too far. 

Never truer words were spoken...er, written in this case.

Jef

[lostinidlewonder]

"There is one primary duty (of the teacher), to instill in every child an understanding and appreciation for excellence."  He went on to say that "given the opportunity, and within the pool to pursue excellence, they learn the difference between appetite and passion."

I would have to disagree with this statement. I feel the primary duty of a teacher is to encourge and support. To define excellence to a student is one thing, but if that is the primary message to the student who cannot achieve this excellence, they will always think playing piano is HARD, a negative outlook. If a teacher encourages, supports and motivates their student a lot more can be acheived. Of course those students who want to take music as a career or very serious past time would have to have this defintion of excellence well known and used as an indicator, measuring their musical production.

Passion and appetite. I think when you are passionate about something you can't help yourself listening to it, you are so compelled by the music that you must learn it, you have to get the sheet and start playing it, it pops into your head when you least expect it and you happily hum parts of the piece.

Appetite is music you like to listen to but just not enough to want to take it now and learn. For instance i have a big appetite for Jazz music, Honky tonk and Rag, but i wouldn't go through the process of memorising them. Not because they are beyond my ability, rather they are music which feed my musical hunger now and then, but do not feed my soul. Feeding the soul something that your special music (music you are passionate about) can only do and which are pieces one must learn if they are to develop emotionally at the keyboard.

[i_m_robot]

why for you all make complex what can be simple?

[lostinidlewonder]

why for you all make complex what can be simple?

Because music is never simplicity, not when you peel the exterior and try to see what is inside it. You can appreciate it with the greatest of simplicity, but try to understand it? It is as hard as trying to understand Love.

[i_m_robot]

Music!?

thought she was talking about food

[i_m_robot]

Because music is never simplicity, not when you peel the exterior and try to see what is inside it. You can appreciate it with the greatest of simplicity, but try to understand it? It is as hard as trying to understand Love.

 

But differences can be simply explained

[lostinidlewonder]

But differences can be simply explained

OK explain how in this case.

[m1469]

Torp wrote :

Since the concept of suffering seems ingrained in the idea of passion, to me, when you are passionate about something you will strive for it, regardless of the pain involved.

I think this is quite important as it involves inspiration.



I have been thinking a little.  First, I will say that when my teacher told this to me as well as when I re-read it, I thought that it was the sense of appetite that was to be desired over simply passion.  Otherwise, why make the distinction?  I think people easily presume passion to be an element of art and it never crosses the mind about appetite.  I am not sure though.    In thinking on this, however, I suppose that one could be considered inspired (passion) whereas one may not be (appetite).  One is coming from a place of fullness-- passion, while the other--appetite, from a place of emptiness when regarded as hunger itself.

I suppose when it comes to piano playing, I would rather have both;  the hunger to seek and the passion to fulfill.  And as robot has pointed out, semantics can be taken too far, but this man as my teacher is well respected in my mind so I wish to understand what is behind his words.

The other thought that crosses my mind in regards to appetite, is that of developing a taste for.  Perhaps this is what is meant (as pianonut may have been alluding to).  One must develop an appetite (long term) for committment and hard work, vs relying on sometimes fleeting and ofttimes unreliable passion (perhaps more of a heat of the moment quality).  Also, appetite can indeed be satiated, but not long term.  One must return over and over to the plate at the table for the sake of survival, we havn't got a choice (well, not much anyway) because we have a long term appetite to be nourished with food and water (especially when life is tailored with high levels of activity). 

I will admit, I think I would rather feel this way about my piano playing and perhaps in a sense I already do, but inspiration/passion is necessary to make progress.  I have been struggling for a while with the inspiration part and as a result I feel my triumphs and level of courage have been noticeably smaller (at least outwardly). 

So I have concluded, he he, there can be a difference between inspiration and motivation.  Whaaaa?

m1469

[tds]

sex and love. the latter doesn't just happen, it grows and endures. tds

[bernhard]

Music!?

thought she was talking about food

Me too.

Anyway, I think the metaphors are mixed.

Perhaps it would have been clearer to have said:

"given the opportunity, and within the pool to pursue excellence, they learn the difference between appetite and hunger."

Or:

"given the opportunity, and within the pool to pursue excellence, they learn the difference between an inclination and passion."

Then again, we could mix up the metaphors in a different way:

"given the opportunity, and within the pool to pursue excellence, they learn the difference between an inclination and hunger."

Opposite of appetite: aversion
Opposite of passion: indifference, apathy.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[m1469]

Music!?

thought she was talking about food

Yeah, I did too... wait 

Actually I really don't have any idea why a person would think this considering I clearly wrote :

I had a teacher with whom I used to have occasional long-distance phone-piano/music lessons with.

and

In speaking about teaching, he said :

So maybe it is a joke that I don't get and find myself becoming strangely enraged about.


m1469
M

[m1469]

Oopsies.. sorry.  I can understand the mix up after all (a friend told me it was his first thought as well).   I guess I was just crabby, sorry 

Thanks for the replies 

m1469

[ted]

I can't help you on this one, m1469. Passion was always a damned nuisance for me at the best of times when I was young so I stopped it at around thirty. Appetite is beginning to flag now too, come to think of it. I know what you mean but it's too much of an effort recalling a distant and rather unpleasant memory. I could choose to have them again if I wanted to, the relinquishing of them is voluntary, but they are both destructive to my purpose at the moment.

[JamesS]

Passion arises from an appetite that can never be satisfied.

J

[m1469]

Opposite of appetite: aversion
Opposite of passion: indifference, apathy.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

This is helpful to consider.  Thanks.

I can't help you on this one, m1469. Passion was always a damned nuisance for me at the best of times when I was young so I stopped it at around thirty. Appetite is beginning to flag now too, come to think of it. I know what you mean but it's too much of an effort recalling a distant and rather unpleasant memory. I could choose to have them again if I wanted to, the relinquishing of them is voluntary, but they are both destructive to my purpose at the moment.

Well, actually this is helpful for me.  Mine is often getting me into trouble for sure    So I appreciate the reflection.

Passion arises from an appetite that can never be satisfied.

J

Actually, this is quite great !

m1469