Am I too stupid to memorize?

[celticqt]

At the risk of beating a dead horse . . .

Today I am so frustrated that I just sat at the piano and cried.  I am trying to memorize three things - two little Haydn sonatas and a Chopin nocturne.  I have worked on these extensively and applied some of your suggestions (analyzing the score, working on small bits).  I can SEE the music in my head.  But some days I can play it, and some days I can't.  I get stuck in dumb places, places that I knew two days ago.  I can't seem to concentrate for the 15-20 minutes it takes to play through a whole sonata.  What is my problem??

Yes, I have read about 20 of the memorization threads, before you guys start giving me links.   Maybe I just haven't found the one with this answer.

BTW, this forum has been an encouragement to me.  I don't really have anyone to talk to about music except my teacher, so learning from all of your posts has helped.

Thanks for any replies.

[torchygirl]

S'treih lhiam!  Sorry you're feeling low CQ.  I am no one to talk to about memorizing things...I consider myself a "figurer-outer" more than a rote memorizer.  I certainly don't think it has anything to do with stupidity!

Now, I happened to be looking at another post where you asked Bernhard about memorizing...I will remind you what he said

Memorising is far more tiring than practice (physical) at the piano, so 20 minutes is probably far too much. Memorising requires complete concentration and focus. This is not something people are usually trained to do, specially in our modern society that encourages (eg action movies, TV) fast changes, and where everybody gets "bored" in a couple of minutes.

Proper memory traning is similar to bringing an unfit personto marathon level. They cannot go from couch potatoes to 26 miles in under 4 hours in a week. Likewise, start memory training in very small periods of time (2 - 3 minutes) and increase 1 minute per week (or even per month). What is reallyimportant is consistency, that is doing it everyday.

Now, let's see, that was, what, 3 days ago?   I do believe that both of us will strengthen our musical memory with time.  But, for gosh sakes girl, give yourself a break!  And even if you find that you're never a good memorizer, why not just keep it at that?  Not, "I'm stupid" but "I'm not so great at memorizing!"  Maybe it is something you'll always have to work harder at, so be it.  Or, maybe not...so be that too.

Good luck CQ.

Karen

PS  I think I saw some comments here about famous musicians who used their sheet music at concerts.  And I KNOW there are some very good actors who really struggle with memorizing lines (leaving notes all over the set to remind themselves).  Don't feel like you're too alone in this.

[celticqt]

Sorry - I got kind of emotional there - I know I'm not really stupid, I just feel that way sometimes, especially when I know there are lots of people who this comes more naturally to.  And when my teacher is expecting all this to be done on Thursday.

[whynot]

Well, hang in there!   You CAN memorize, you ARE memorizing.  You just sound a little panicked at the time crunch.  That does make it a lot harder (not the time limit but the panic).  What if you play your pieces into a tape recorder and then play along with them?  Well, just listening to them too, but really I think playing along might be the thing.  Because if a friend were sitting next to you at another piano playing your pieces with you, think how comforting that would be, how everything might flow more and stay together better in your imagination.  So you can be the friend to yourself and keep yourself company while you play.  This is not to replace the excellent memorizing techniques you've been reading about, but rather something to do afterwards when it's time to switch gears.  Don't panic! just keep playing.  Everybody feels this way sometimes. 

[celticqt]

That sounds like a good idea, whynot.  That wouldn't be the same as listening to recordings of your pieces, would it?  I'm not supposed to do that.  But I do think that all the thoughts of "oh no, I messed this up before, I've got to get it right this time" don't help.  Gotta work on that positive self-talk thing too.

[Chrysalis]

i have less trouble memorizing then sightreading..

anyway...

play bar by bar...
completed a bar then go to the next... repeat everything everytime...
t helps for me.. it eats time but it helps...

[nomis]

That sounds like a good idea, whynot.  That wouldn't be the same as listening to recordings of your pieces, would it?  I'm not supposed to do that.  But I do think that all the thoughts of "oh no, I messed this up before, I've got to get it right this time" don't help.  Gotta work on that positive self-talk thing too.

Why aren't you suppposed to listen to recordings of your pieces? Surely you won't die after one listen, no?

As for your memory slips, here is a method that I find that works for me. After I have learned the piece i.e. all the notes, I play through the whole thing just to check I have all the notes. I will probably come across a section that will be slightly hazy and then I will work on it hands separately, then together (it takes a relatively short time as I have learnt some of that section already). Once I have the notes of that section ingrained, I continue where I left off and work through the piece until there are no hazy spots left. The next day, I will play work on the hazy sections again, then I will play through the whole piece. If there are still hazy sections, I do the same. I then proceed to work on the piece everyday until I can play it with my eyes closed.

That is a method that works with me. However, apart from hand memory (which is probably my strongest), you have to work on aural and visual memory too. If you listen to a recording and know it throughly, frequently the aural memory will help you out of tight spots. Visual memory isn't only just the memory of the score (I find that it is not very helpful for me) but visual memory of what you are playing. For example, I play a passage in the right hand F-A-C-E and I always look to the next note after the previous note, then next time I play it, I will look again and so I rely on the visual information to memorise the section.

[TR]

Sight reading is also much more hell than memorizing for me, particularly because, lacking the ability to sight-read quick, I have to slowly learn the piece bar-by-bar, note-by-note, and unconsciously, I begin to memorize.

I'm not sure how you tackle pieces, but, I find that practicing a part of a piece hands separated (and then joining them when I have somehow mastered that part) is the best way to memorize that part (and eventually, the whole thing). Memorization of most of all the pieces in my repertoire were done using this method.

[celticqt]

You people are great to talk to and bounce ideas off.  Thanks!

TR: I learn pieces a measure (or two) at a time.  Sightreading is not a problem for me at all.  So I really have to concentrate to get the notes down.  Bernhard's suggestion about analyzing the music helped; now I can say, "Here comes an ascending melodic minor scale, followed by a descending harmonic minor."

nomis:  All I know is that I told my teacher one time that I had listened to a recording of a piece as I was trying to learn it and he said, "Never listen to a recording!  Find your own interpretation!"

The thing is, the notes are not hazy in my mind.  I can see them on the page.  They just don't always make it out my fingers.  If I can't play it through perfectly at my house, how am I supposed to do it at my lesson?

I did try playing with my eyes closed, but I found that opening them messed me up.  Now I try to keep them open as I memorize.

[bernhard]

All I know is that I told my teacher one time that I had listened to a recording of a piece as I was trying to learn it and he said, "Never listen to a recording!  Find your own interpretation!"

Does your teacher lives with you? Does s/he keep your CD player locked in a safe? I am starting to get really fed up with certain cretin ideas. So there you have it: anyone who says:

"Never listen to a recording!  Find your own interpretation!"

Is a certified cretin.

Instead:

"Always listen to hundreds of recordings! Then find your own interpretation!"

So you cannot listen to CDs, but what about concerts? can you go to concerts? Or does this teacher forbids it too?

And if you are an aspiring writer, what about this advice: “Never read any books: write your own”

For crying out loud!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

PS: Have a look here for a more detailed discussion on this issue:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2255.msg19129.html#msg19129
(practising long pieces – Good discussion if one should or should not listen to CDs - Slow motion practice, comparison with walking/running)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4971.msg47287.html#msg47287
( interpretation compared to pronunciation and Ancient Egyptian – Problem with Baroque music interpretation – why listening to CDs is important)

[celticqt]

I read your threads, Bernhard, and you make a very convincing argument for listening to CDs of my pieces. 

Should I do it, and just not tell my teacher? Or will he be able to tell that I'm listening?

[xvimbi]

I read your threads, Bernhard, and you make a very convincing argument for listening to CDs of my pieces. 

Should I do it, and just not tell my teacher? Or will he be able to tell that I'm listening?

I think it would be worthwhile to find out why teachers do this sometimes. The idea to dicourage students from listening to other people's performances is to avoid that they simply copy how others play. And indeed, students often enough simply copy other people's style because of laziness, or because of lack of imagination. But not all students are like that, and for those who aren't, these artifical restrictions are neither necessary nor warranted.

Now, if you can convince your teacher that you are not lazy and you don't lack imagination, there should be no problem. Perhaps you could try the following with one of the pieces you are working on: collect a number of recordings, then analyze them carefully. Write down what you like and what you don't like, present cogent reasons for your thoughts. Then discuss this with your teacher. Show him that you are able to critically think for yourself. Show him how you decided to play the piece. That will teach him that you are a mature, responsible student who is capable of independent analysis, and who can synthesize a tremendous amount of information into something that has a unique and individual character.

It's a pity that something like this is necessary, but, you know, sometimes, teachers just have to be educated

[bernhard]

I read your threads, Bernhard, and you make a very convincing argument for listening to CDs of my pieces. 

Should I do it, and just not tell my teacher? Or will he be able to tell that I'm listening?

Let us conisder this from another point of view altogether.

I don't know about you, but I derive intense pleasure from listening to music. Indeed such strong is this pleasure, that I want to be part of it. I want to play myself, I want to play with others and I want to teach others to play. I want my life to revolve around music.

What possible reason can there possibly be for someone to suggest that I should give up such pleasure?

Transfer this reasoning to haute cuisine.  So if I want to be a chef I should never eat at anyone else's restaurant, watch any cooking program on TV, try any new dish prepared by someone else, just in case this stops me from developping my own culinary style? Even though eating well may be one of the greatest pleasures in my life, that brought me to cooking in the first place? I am only allowed to read recipe books and then from the recipes do the dish and then eat it? Do you really think (ask your teacher) this is the way to learn how to cook?

A few years ago, they had a comic program on TV "Chef" with Lenny Henry as a bad tempered foul tempered cooking genius. In one of the programs, his father, who was Jamaican and from whom he was estranged for many years, come to visit him at his posh French Restaurant. To cut the story short, Lenny decides to impress his father by cooking a Jamaican meal. He gets the books and follow the recipes, and soon he is completely frustrated. He tells his wife in frustration as they try a sample meal (she thinks it is tasty):

"The problem is, I have never eaten this stuff: I don't know what it is supposed to taste like!"

And there you have it in a nutshell. The chef cannot start to change the recipes until he knows what it tastes like in the first place.

If I was a chef, you can bet I would be eaten in all restaurants in town at the very least to see what the competition is doing. And if it is good, you can also bet I would be imitating it and including in my menu!

In fact any profession I can think about that requires "interpretation" or "originality" (cooking, writing, acting, movie directing etc., etc.) studying the way other people - especially the genius - do it, is a required part of the syllabus. Anyone who has attended a writing course will have at some point as an assignment to imitate the style of a famous (or several) writer; in composition courses you are asked as an exercise to compose fugues in the style of Bach or sonatas in the style of Mozart. Imitiation is a great learning tool. Being able to emulate the playing style of Gould, Richter or Tureck when playing Bach will teach you a lot about Bach, about Gould, Richter and Tureck and about the expressive capacities of the piano.

Go for it. 

As for telling your teacher, it is up to you. If s/he is a tyrannical unapproachable person, why bother, do you really think anyone can find out from your playing to which CD you have been listening to? Now pull my other leg!

If s/he is nice and open to discussion then go ahead an make your case.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[celticqt]

xvimbi: The one piece I did listen to (and got scolded for) was a Chopin nocturne; I actually didn't like the way the performer interpreted it.  It sounded rushed and unemotional.  The recording gave me an idea of what not to do.  Now, I may not have much imagination, but I am certainly not lazy, and I think my teacher knows that after five months of lessons.  I'm a bit nervous about mentioning this to him; he is an emotional Italian and I've heard that he has quite a temper, although he has always been very kind to me. 

Bernhard: Thank you for your thoughts.  I haven't been around here long, but I get the feeling that your opinion is gospel (much disputed gospel, but gospel nonetheless).

If my teacher were tyrannical, I probably wouldn't have lasted a month with him.  At times I am a Big Chicken.

I don't know about you, but I derive intense pleasure from listening to music. Indeed such strong is this pleasure, that I want to be part of it. I want to play myself, I want to play with others and I want to teach others to play. I want my life to revolve around music.

 
I feel this way also.  Hearing something in my head and attempting to reproduce it out my fingers is a frustrating but rewarding task.  I didn't realize that my memorization skills were so rusty, and getting back to where I was in college is more of a challenge than I anticipated.

[CC]

As others have pointed out, learning to memorize is like learning to run a marathon; good memorizers make memorizing seem so easy just as marathon runners make running seem so effortless.  So where is the "effort" that memorizers exercise?  Their minds are always memorizing (automatically), ours are not.  Non memorizers have minds that basically are blank for long periods of time, and the "effort" that non memorizers must exert is in training our minds to memorize all the time.  Therefore, you must learn to play the music in your mind away from the piano, and even when playing, you must turn the music over in your head even while the fingers are busy.  Memorizing must be an all day, all the time affair -- this is why good memorizers are good.  They "effortlessly" process memorizing all the time, without forcing their minds to do so.  For the rest of us, we must force our minds to do those chores all the time, at least in the beginning, until it starts to be a habit.  Therefore, you cannot become a good memorizer overnight, just as you can't run a marathon without long hard work.

Another factor that is bad for bad memorizers is the fear of forgetting.  This makes memorizing uninteresting and frustrating instead of rewarding and exciting.  This happens because you are expecting to do what you cannot yet do.  So make sure that your expectation is below what you can achieve -- which is a very good rule to follow in anything you do in life. How to achieve this in memory?  Simply lowering your expectations isn't going to work or make it exciting.  What you need to do is to use reverse psychology and use the "forget 3 times" rule, which says that, unless you completely forget something and re-memorize it 3 times, you have not really memorized it.  Therefore, the way to memorize is to try to forget it!  Now, you may find it very frustrating when you discover that it is not easy to completely forget!  Now you are making progress!  you can't forget! But the most important effect you will achieve in trying to forget is that you will not be frustrated any more when you DO forget, because that's what you wanted in the first place -- now you have your chance to re-memorize.

It takes 5 -  10 minutes for memory to be placed into permanent memory from temporary memory.  Therefore, don't practice one thing for too long.  Memorize many things at once, but wait at least 5 minutes, then come back and re-memorize each thing.  This will greatly increase your memory efficiency by taking your brain memory process into account. Now this is a complex area, because there are many types of memory: short, medium, long, etc., etc., so you need to know these in detail to know exactly what to do, but this is another very open field of possibilities you can explore.  For example, memory depends on your emotional response, how well you "understand" your subject, etc.

One way to force yourself to analyze a piece in detail is to first memorize each hand in small segments, then start with the last segment and see if you can start playing from that segment, and work yourself backwards from end to beginning. You can do this by starting with the LH and letting the RH join in, or vice versa.  You might discover that you don't know the piece as well as you thought!

[ted]

celticqt:

I shall just add my weight to what Bernhard and xvimbi have said.  What the teacher says about listening is too stupid for words. He should be encouraging you to listen to everything under the sun. Nervous about mentioning things to him ! For heaven's sake, a teacher should be a respected mentor and, as time goes on, a friend.  You should have no qualms about discussing anything to do with music with him. The days of teachers being feared martinets are gone now and good riddance to them. If you're that afraid of him you can't say what's on your mind I think it's time to get another teacher - preferably one with a few brains.

[aajjmb]

I used to be really bad at memorizing because i just went lazy fr a year and didn't do anything from memory... unfortunately this took 2 years to fix!!  However i know just how you feel!  Try to memorize say three bars of a piece... work on tem for 5 minutes until you can get it like 1/2 tries and then stop.  Come back later or even the next day!  The next day your memory of those bars may not be perfect but push on and do three more (practise the first three too!) !
As far as NOT LISTENING TO CDS.... go get a new teacher that isn't such a retard lol (sry if you like your teacher:P  i don't actually mean that) but listening to say pollini / kimmermann really helps!  Anyways good luck on the memorization.... oh yea doon't tell yourself that you bad at memory because then you WILL forget your piece during a concert!  When you're playing try to think about the expression or phrazing and don't even think about memory!!!!!

good luck

[celticqt]

CC: I appreciate your marathon comparison. Now, you guys are going to think my teacher is horrible when I say this; but I want to explain what's been going through my head.  I think one of the reasons why he makes me nervous is that I've heard stories from former students about how they came to several lessons in a row unprepared, and he threw them out.  I don't want him to think that I'm coming unprepared on purpose.

My music does go around in my head at times; the other night I was trying to go to sleep, and I was reviewing the third movement, and I think I kept dozing off and waking up because I was skipping sections. . . . it was wierd.

For example, memory depends on your emotional response, how well you "understand" your subject, etc.

By emotional response, do you mean how much you like the piece?

[adagiom]

My music does go around in my head at times; the other night I was trying to go to sleep, and I was reviewing the third movement, and I think I kept dozing off and waking up because I was skipping sections. . . . it was wierd.

Me, too! I'm working on memorizing a piece, and I kept waking up in the middle of the night last night, working on the left hand in my head. Obviously, your brain keeps working on it even when you're not at the piano...

Cheers, Michele

[sznitzeln]

Since you have read so many threads I will try to limit myself to a few lines:

1) Bad sight-readers are in my experience good memorizers, just as blind people are good at finding their way in the darkness. You memorize when it is essential... so do as the bad sight-readers... read slowly. That means read one bar... play it until it gets into your ears and hands, and god forbid, not your mind Just kidding.
Use the sheet-music as little as possible, but not less

2) Josef Lhevinne says that if you dont memorise readily, just keep doing it EVERY DAY. And you WILL get better.

3) Get a little book and write how many bars you memorized each day (or started memorizing, or finished memorizing). Then set a minimum of bars you will memorize every day in an amount of time you are willing to spend. You'll notice the increase.

[MattL]

I completely agree sznitzeln

Bad sight readers make great memorizers, as i am.

But you guys make it sound as if it is painstakingly slow it all depends on who you are and how well you absorb material for me personally memorization comes with readeing the music once or twice and i got it. Then i play it and polish it all up. I am making a conscious effort to learn how to sight read though.

oh  well....

[celticqt]

Well, it's been about five weeks and I can pretty much get through those two sonatas without stopping.  I still make stupid mistakes, just not as frequently.  The marathon runner comparison helped put it into perspective for me - I can't expect to be immediately good at something that I haven't done for five years.

[quantum]

CC made some excellent comments.

I myself have always been a good memorizer and a so-so sight reader, and have recently taken much interest in the subject of memorization. 

First of all, it is ok to forget.  Do not fear stumbling on a passage in the middle of a piece.  This act in itself is a great memorization tool.  Forgetting a passage is like highlighting an important sentence in a book.  It brings to your attention any items that need more work. 

Realize that your memory is more active than you think it is.  It is also possibe that you can memorize your sight reading.  The actual act of having music infront of you and looking up at the music can become an integral part of the piece you are playing.  This is why I find it is most important to memorize a piece as early as possible in the learning stage. 

Referring back to CC's post.  Memory will become much easier if you include it in every day life.  For example an excercise I created for myself:  every day I go to university I must take 2 publilc transit vehicles to school and 2 back home.  Each bus has a 4 digit vehicle number.  I memorize the 4 digit number of every bus I take.  At the end of the day I should be able to recall the 4, 4 digit numbers of busses I took that day.  This has the added benefit for if I loose something on the bus, it may be easier to track the item down later on. 

Practice taking away the score even though you don't think you are ready yet.  You probably have memorized more than you think.  Remember it is OK to forget.  At your first stumble spot, don't take out the music right away, logicaly try to figure out what you think the passage is.  Use phrase, harmony, counterpoint, etc. as a guide.  Then pull out the music to check your hypothesis.  Now move on and repeat at your next stumble spot, and so on. 


Don't try to memorize in one whole big chunk of time.  Memorizing is also connected with the task of recalling from memory.  When you put a whole big chunck of new stuff into memory you probably find that the imediate repetitions tell you that you have memorized a lot, but a day later you realized you don't remember much.  You need to practice recalling from long term memory: that is recalling something after a break of doing something else.  Memory from imediate repetitions may still be coming from short term memory. 

Work in short managable sections.  An example: memorize for 5 mins, play something else for 5 mins, recall previous material for 5 mins; memorize new material for 5 min, play something else for 5 min; recall combined material for 10 min, etc. 

Structure is also very important in memorizing.  Make a roadmap of the particular piece.  Divide it into distinct sections.  Your roadmap is the instructions for putting all the sections together.  Now practice sections in random order.  Don't always practice from beginning to end, because in the event of a stumble you may have to alter the path you take.  Practicing in random order emphasizes the structure of your piece. 

Practice backwards by section from last bar to first!  This emphasizes forward thinking rather than pondering on the past.  In practicing backwards you are familirizing yourself with what objects come AFTER other objects.  In a performance if you stumble you should think ahead instead of thinking back.  This will help you refocus your mind and should help stop you from freezing in the middle of your piece. 

[celticqt]

Thank you for your comments, quantum.

First of all, it is ok to forget. Do not fear stumbling on a passage in the middle of a piece. This act in itself is a great memorization tool. Forgetting a passage is like highlighting an important sentence in a book. It brings to your attention any items that need more work.

Hmmm.  I realized recently that I really beat myself up mentally when I draw a blank. (i. e., What is wrong with you? You just played that correctly two minutes ago!!)  This is probably very counter-productive.

Don't try to memorize in one whole big chunk of time. Memorizing is also connected with the task of recalling from memory.  You need to practice recalling from long term memory: that is recalling something after a break of doing something else.

This may be my problem.  I can play all the little bits and pieces, out of order, or stopping in between.  When I try to put it all together, I can't keep my mind focused long enough to get through the whole thing.  Perhaps my long-term recall is messed up?

I also noticed that when I do play it better (or more accurately, without dumb mistakes), I'm not thinking about what note/chord I'm playing; I'm focusing on the next thing that's coming up.  Like my brain is one step ahead of my fingers.  Is that right?

[markj]

I think the most important thing you can do when learning a piece is to learn it by musical phrase. Music is communication. Compositions are often very much like dialogue. I literally remember pieces by what they communicate and how they communicate. I hear one phrase asking a question, I hear the next phrase answering it. I hear one phrase laughing, I hear the next one crying.

Always ask yourself what the composer was attemting to communicate. You'll find that phrases are often (most frequently) characterized by minor and major themes suggesting sadness or happiness.

These pieces weren't written by robots. They were written by humans with a very depp range of emotions. I think classical musical is VERY emotional. I try to get in the composer's head and dissect his communication.

Think in phrases. Think in moods. Personify the pieces you work on. The notes will become secondary after a while. Once I learn a piece, my fingers move automatically, I don't even need to think about it. The ONLY thing I ever WORK at remembering is fingering when it is foreign to me.

Don't just THINK when you learn. FEEL.  Don't forget to FEEL.

mj
www.jforce.org

[Jacey1973]

Awww don't worry about it - i know i've cried loads at not being able to grasp something or not being good enough etc, but i think (well for me) its a good thing because it inspires me just to work even harder.

If you're having memory lapses - then go back to the music. I mean go for a few days in a row with using the music and test your memory perhaps just once a day after a couple hours practice - or however long you practice for.

Also if i'm having a memory lapse at a particular passage, i play the passage slowly looking at every note on the music and alternate that (say about 10 times) with looking at my hands when i'm playing it i.e testing my memory in short sections.