Critique this performance

[tonym]

My son recently got his first performance opportunity at his 2nd grade talent show. He is 8 yrs old and has been taking lessons for about 16 months now.

Other than the obvious mistakes, I would like to hear your thoughts regarding the performance. Do you see any bad habits forming? I am not a pianist myself but do notice that he really speeds up after his mistakes. I welcome any suggestions that might help him going forward.

BTW, the school piano had not been tuned in a long time and had some sticky keys so that might have caused at least one of his miscues.

Click on the following link for the performance:
https://www.crysco.com/video/Josh_Kuhlau_Op55_050405.wmv

Thanks,
Tony

[i_m_robot]

 
that kid is hard

he plays the sonatina better than self does

[TR]

I want a son like that.

[i_m_robot]

Self wanna be that son

[thierry13]

He is very talented. Push him to continue, same if he has a moment at 12-13-14 years old where he want to leave because of high school. He won't regret it later on. The only "thing" that is not a "obvious" mistake, is that at about 1:20 to 1:30, when he plays his accents, I think he's banging too much on the keys, wich is a bad habit to take. Else of that, very good performance.

[lagin]

Wow, 16 months only?  Did he read music before that with another instrument or something?  What grade is that approx.?  I'm officially impressed!

[tonym]

thierry13 - Thanks for the comments!  I showed my wife (who also plays) the part at 1:20 --> 1:30 and she agreed with you.  She said his teacher has been trying to correct this but obviously has some more work to do.

lagin - Thanks for the reply.  It is actually getting close to 17 months of playing as he started banging on our old digital piano in mid December 2003.  He never read music prior, although he heard plenty of classical music from his mother.  I have no idea what grade level the piece is because his teacher does not belong to a professional organization like the MTAC (Music Teacher's Association of California).  Does anyone else have any idea?  In April of 2004, we ditched the digital piano and purchased a full grand and he progressed at a much faster rate after he started playing on the grand.  I think he does have a lot of potential if he sticks with it, which we hope he will.  BTW, he is currently working on Beethoven's Sonatina Op. 49 No. 2.  I know this is Beethoven's easiest Sonata, but does anyone know what grade level this would be?
BTW, I found it interesting that he chose the Beethoven Sonatina over Mozart's K545 when given a choice of which one to work on next.  He would normally pick Mozart's upbeat "happy go lucky" pieces over any others.

Thanks again for the responses thus far.

Tony

[bernhard]

Both pieces are around grade5 (ABRSM).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[tonym]

Folks, this is a very nice/informative response I received from Bernhard this morning.

Thanks again Bernhard for taking the time to respond!

Hi, Tonym

I am sending you below some comments on your son’s video. I am sending you through private message rather than the forum because I don;t think it is very nice to offer criticism in public. On the other hand, you may benefit from other’s opinions on my opinions, so feel free to post this message in the thread (or relevant parts of it) if you would like for people to discuss it. In any case I thought it would be better to give you a chance to read it in private before sharing it with others (it you decide to).

First, let me congratulate you on your son’s progress. It is very impressive that he achieved so much at his age (Cool and in so little time (16 months). He clearly has a talent, but mos importantly, he has an interest and you and your wife have done averygood job of fostering it. Well done. Cheesy

I have watched the video a number of times and I would like to point out some concerns – they are not really criticisms, rather pointers to things he is doing at the piano that – if  corrected will avoid many problems in the future. Also keep in mind that he may have done some of the things I discuss below during his performance out of nervousness, and normally he would not do them.

1.   Posture. He was sitting far too far from the piano. Note how his arms are outstretched to reach the keys. The elbows should be a fist away from the body, no more no less (if they are too close to the body the torso gets in the way of arm movement, if they are too far, the back must support the full weight of the arm, and you get a sharp pain right in the middle of the back. Ask him if he has such a pain).

He is also sitting too far back on the bench. He should be more towards the front, sitting on the sitting bones (he appears to be doing that). I could not see if his feet reached the floor or if they were dangling in the air – they should be firmly in the floor, calves perpendicular to the floor.

His back seemed to have quite a lot of tension on the lower back – perhaps from trying to sit straight – he does look very straight, but this may have been accomplished at the expense of lower back tension.

His neck is very good, though. Cheesy

His elbows were too low. This may just be at the recital. The bench should be adjusted a little higher so that his elbows are at the same level of the keyboard (you do not want elbows too high either). Again, this may have been only at that particular performance.

2.   Playing technique. He is using too much finger work. This will generate a lot of fatigue, and the few mistakes he made have been caused almost surely by this fatigue.

More worrying, is his habit of sticking fingers in the air as he press the keys down with the other fingers. If, as you press one finger down the others shoot up, you are working  against yourself: the classical case of muscle co-contraction, and the major cause of injuries amongst pianists. Is his teacher an advocate of Hanon and similar exercises that prescribe that one lifts the fingers high? This is a very bad habit, that always produces muscle fatigue and labored playing.

Next, notice his habit of dropping the wrists – again a very bad habit and the most likely cause of carpal tunnel syndrome amongst pianists. As the wrists drop, joint alignment is destroyed, and the fingers go up (rather than down into the keys), and must be “muscled” back down, which again is working against oneself. Does he have fatigue/discomfort/soreness/pain in the forearms after playing/practising? Correct technique never feels uncomfortable and one should be able to go playing for hours without any fatigue whatsoever. The sports mentality of “no pain, no gain” is completely inappropriate in piano playing.

At several instances, however, your son displayed very good body usage, with joints aligned and so on (e.g., at 0:49, 1:46 and 2:20 where he played the chords with arm weight, aligned joints and impeccable technique), so he already can do the right thing, but he must observe that he is constantly and consistently doing it.

In a few instances he twisted his hands to place the thumb or little finger (which are shorter) in the keys. This is also a very bad habit, since there are nerve centres on the outside of the wrist that can be damaged if this becomes a habitual pattern. Instead of twisting his hand,  he should bring the arm back and forwards to negotiate the placement of the shorter fingers in the keys.

I feel that right now (due to these inappropriate movements) his playing is laboured and effort laden. At this point one may well say to me: “What do you expect: It is a difficult piece, and he is only eight!” Yet, it is exactly this “expectation” that makes it laboured. If one aims at “ease of playing”, one keeps investigating new movements until one achieves it. If one expects the piece to be difficult to play, one accepts the fatigue/discomfort/pain as necessary evils that must be endured. I doubt he will get injuries at this stage, since he is very young and probably does not practise that much. However as these movements become usual, and he grows up, if he continues on a musical path, he may well be in a few years time practising daily 6- 7 hours a day with these movements, and at that stage he may well face serious, debilitating injuries. In any case, even if he never has any injuries, his playing will be limited by these inappropriate movements.

If you would like to discuss any of these matters in more detail, please feel free to do so.

Also have a look at the threads below, since they discuss some of these issues in greater detail.

Good luck. Smiley

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2916.msg25572.html#msg25572
(Bad habits when playing/practising)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/board,4/topic,4880.3.html#msg46319
(how to acquire technique and what technique actually is)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2998.msg26268.html#msg26268
(Scales HT, why? – Bernhard on top form explaining why and when to practise scales HS and HT – Pragmatical  x logical way of teaching – analogy with aikido – list of piano techniques – DVORAK – realistic x sports martial arts – technique and how to acquire it by solving technical problems – Hanon and why it should be avoided - Lemmings)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2079.msg17335.html#msg17335
(Hand tension – not using fingers to play)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2502.msg21594.html#msg21594
(Independence of the 3rd and 4thfinger – it is impossible: one should work towards the illusion of independence: it is all arm work)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2507.msg21688.html#msg21688
(Round fingers – the role of fingers)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4385.msg41226.html#msg41226
(Technique – definition of technique – technique is personal and relative to the piece – Fosberry flop – the best books on technique)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4734.msg44770.html#msg44770
(how to acquire virtuoso technique – aiming at 100 pieces in five years)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4880.msg46339.html#msg46339
(definition of technique: quote from Fink, Sandor and Pires – Example of the A-E-A arpeggio)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7887.msg79326.html#msg79326
(why the lifting of the 4th finger is a non-problem)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg84684.html#msg84684
(circular movements to avoid co-contraction)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8322.msg84686.html#msg84686
(speed and muscle tension – 3 important components of speed playing)

(just the tip of the iceberg) Tongue

[tonym]

Bernhard,

Thanks so much for your message; this is EXACTLY what I was looking for.  I have been lurking on the forums for some time and realize you are a well respected authority and appreciate you taking the time to help us out.  I will post your message and my follow-up in the forums because it is valuable information and certainly not taken as criticism.

Perhaps I can offer a little more information, which might help when assessing his performance.

It wasn't a real recital per se.  Luckily, he is enrolled in GATE (Gifted & Talented Education) and his 2nd grade class has opportunities to do more since they finish the normal second grade curriculum several months prior to the end of school year.  This talent show was something the teacher put together for the kids and he was one of five in his class, who chose a piano performance.

1.  Posture - I agree on all points and his teacher tries to drive this home during lessons.  I don't know if it is an age thing or stubbornness that prevents him from listening and doing as said.

He is too short to reach the floor with his feet while sitting on the bench.  We should have brought a cushion or something to raise him to the proper height.

2.  Using too much finger work - I don't really follow.  Could you elaborate?  I do very much agree about his slouching wrists and fingers pointing up in the air.  His teacher tries to correct this (without total success) each week during his lessons.  His current teacher is his third.  The first was a schoolmates friend, who lived down the street and she started him on the Alfred prep course.  After a few months, she moved and recommended another friend (with no real teaching experience).  She worked with him ~ 3 months until I found his current teacher.  I am so glad I found her because he might still be playing that AWFUL Alfred stuff otherwise.  Do you think his teacher is having problems correcting his posture and some technique's due to the first 5-6 months with the other teachers?

Additionally, a part of his daily practice schedule is Hanon and Czerny.  I read a lot of mixed opinions regarding the usefulness (or lack thereof) of these methods. 

Thanks again for this very informative response!

Tony

[sznitzeln]

Make sure he has a good teacher ... the first teacher is the most important.
(I am not trying to imply his current teacher isnt good, I dont know a single thing about him or her )
Check if the teacher is emphasizing touch and phrasing.
Btw, I also think your son is talented. Make sure he has the best teacher that you can find. Its a common mistake to believe that any teacher can learn children "the basics".
I hope I am not being offensive... dont take this personal... I am just writing about a general case... I havent even read this thread.

Good luck to your son

[bernhard]

Bernhard,

Thanks so much for your message; this is EXACTLY what I was looking for. 

You are welcome.

1.  Posture - I agree on all points and his teacher tries to drive this home during lessons.  I don't know if it is an age thing or stubbornness that prevents him from listening and doing as said.

He is too short to reach the floor with his feet while sitting on the bench.  We should have brought a cushion or something to raise him to the proper height.

Yes, this kind of stuborness is very common. Basically it stems from being able to get results even if the posture/way of doing things is not the best while when he tries to do things as directed by the teacher (or someone else) his results are actually inferior to the results he gets when doing it "wrong". The best example I can give (I am always mentioning it) is jumping backwards over a bar. Now everyone does it, because it is very efficient. But until the 1968 Olympics, everyone jumped forwards over the bar. Now a pre 1968 jumper will get excellent results jumping forward, but not as good as a seasoned backwards jumper. However if he tries to jump backwards, his results will be far inferior to jumping forwards. He needs to train as intensively jumping backwards as he did with jumping forwards, and if he does, his results jumping backwards will be far better than his present results jumping forwards. But because right now he is hopeless at jumping backwards, this becomes an unsurmountable block: he alwasy ends up jumping forward. In short, he is in the grip of a bad habit (by the way this is not the fault of the teacher in any way - I should know!).

Ultimately he will eventually have to change his ways, when his ways cannot give him results anymore (just like allforward jumpers eventually had to retrain to jump backwards). He will not change while he is satisfied.

2.  Using too much finger work - I don't really follow.  Could you elaborate?

Briefly, he is relying too much on fingers. But the fingers are the very last link in a very long chain. Think of a punch. The uninitiated think one punches with the fist. But as any boxer/karateka/taekowindoka will tell (and show) you, you actually punch with your hips. The punch starts at the feet, gets its power and energy form twisting the hips and the fist is just the point of contact. Likewise, the fingers are just the point of contact with the keys. The movement must involve everything: sholder girdle, upper arm, forearm, etc. As Richter once said, "I played that note with my toe". Although you can play the piano to a certain extent with the fingers only and trying to keep everything else from contributing (apparently the aim of much of 18th an 19th century piano pedagogy), such palyingis very limited and limiting and often results in injuries. There is plenty more detail in the threads I posted above. Have a look at them.

  I do very much agree about his slouching wrists and fingers pointing up in the air.  His teacher tries to correct this (without total success) each week during his lessons.  His current teacher is his third.  The first was a schoolmates friend, who lived down the street and she started him on the Alfred prep course.  After a few months, she moved and recommended another friend (with no real teaching experience).  She worked with him ~ 3 months until I found his current teacher.  I am so glad I found her because he might still be playing that AWFUL Alfred stuff otherwise.  Do you think his teacher is having problems correcting his posture and some technique's due to the first 5-6 months with the other teachers?

I would not blame teachers. (Unless they have actually taught him to play this way and insisted that he used such movements). My guess is that - as it is the case with most children - he did what came naturally to him (and happened not to be the best technique), and as it became more habitual and comfortable, he simply did not pay heed to anything anyonesaid (I have students like that). And for the moment, he is getting away with it because the pieces he is playing are not yet at a level of difficulty that will stop him in his tracks. Eventually he will realise that the movements he isdoing are limiting. Until this happens - that is until he becomes dissatisfied with his present technique - he will not wnat to change, and therefore won't.

Additionally, a part of his daily practice schedule is Hanon and Czerny.  I read a lot of mixed opinions regarding the usefulness (or lack thereof) of these methods. 

Yes, I personally do not care for them. However, doing them in the way Hanon (and Czerny) himself prescribed is a definite no-no. Again, the threads above have a fuller discussion (with differing viewpoints from mine) on this issue.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[canardroti]

hey hey! it's very nice,  i noticed that alot of new pianist( at least in my state) begin with this piece as well! it must be very usefull to develop technique.
Anyway. very talented, building strong fingers already, NICE.