about Kawai 'Millennium' action

[gosch]

Hi,

Has anyone some experience about Kawai's 'ABS' actions ?
..especially the newest incarnation"Millennium" ?
I'm making a trip next week just to compare some RX-1 and RX-2 models,
but after being adviced against any 'plastic' parts in actions, I am a little
concerned about Kawai...

Any advice/opinions are greatly appreciated!

Best
gosch

[Brian Lawson, RPT]

Kawai's have been using ABS for many years, any problems would have become apparent by now.

The Millennium per observation from tuning and inspection is an advance in use and design.

Who warned you? a salesman selling something other than Kawai?


The ONLY probelm piano with plastic parts from the 60's I am familiar was the Lindner, made in Ireland - say no more.


For secific answers by head of Kawai technical see here
https://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/7742.html#000007

[gosch]

Thanks for that link!

After thinking more about it, it really seems unreasonable to me that Kawai would use these new material "just to cut costs".
And it seems only logical that all kinds of new "space-age" materials should eventually make it into pianos.

But I will explore this action very carefully before I make any decision.
It's really an interesting issue overall.
Why would Steinway, Boesendorfer etc. not use it ?
Too conservative or too intelligent ?

[Axtremus]

Piano people are a conservative bunch...

Most acoustic piano advertisement you see, every one likes to claim some sort of history going back to 18xx, every one likes to claim "old world craftsmanship," every one likes to claim "we're doing it the way it has always been done in the last xxx years," every one likes to throw in the word "hand-made."

NO ONE wants to claim "we use the latest and greatest design innovations," "we use the latest and greatest manufacturing technique."

Kawai took a huge risk going the way of ABS (and now, carbon composite with their Millenium III action). Every once in a while, some one would come onto the Internet asking about this ABS (and now, carbon composite) issue, and they would very frequently describe how they have been told all sorts of "bad things" related to "plastic parts" in pianos. And people like Brian Lawson and KawaiDon would have to jump through the hoops to assure these nervouse shoppers that indeed the ABS/carbon stuff is really a "good thing," or at least there is "nothing bad about it."

Being in the deeply conservative and deeply traditional piano industry, this is the kind of market reality that Kawai has to face, this is the kind of risk that Kawai has to take to introduce something dramatically new and different from all other major manufacturers of pianos.

Looking at it from another angle, what reasons are there to continue to use wood as moving parts except for the fact that that's the way it has always been? Some one made this comment before: The piano is about the only industry left that uses wood to make lots of tiny moving parts, no one else. Why?

I do wonder if Kawai's upper management ever second guess their decision to have gone ABS every few months.

From personal experience though, when I first played a Kawai grand with ABS action, I couldn't tell it was not wood until some one told me. I observe other pianist friends play them... again, they couldn't tell the action is not wood until some one told them. So I'm quite certain that most pianists cannot feel the wood/ABS difference by playing the pianos.

The rest of the issues would than be a matter or science: is wood/ABS/carbon easier to maintain, is wood/ABS/carbon easier to manufacture to tighter tolerances, is wood/ABS/carbon cheaper to produce overall in small/large quantities, is wood/ABS/carbon more dimensionally stable in most usage scenarios and piano storage environments, is wood/ABS/carbon more capable to resist wear under heavy use over the years, etc.

Good luck with your research.

[faulty_damper]

Carbon composite?  Finally a manufacturer is taking a more technological approach to piano building!  It's lighter, stiffer, and so much more expensive to make but the benefits over wood are extreme and the fact that carbon composite doesn't swell up like wood in high humidity or change its characteristics like wood could mean lower cost of maintaining it.  Lighter action parts can mean faster action which means better control.  Now if most everything could be made out of carbon like the lid of the piano, it could be an aesthetic enhancement on 9 ft grands due to the fact that carbon lids do not need support beams because it is lighter and significantly stiffer than wood.

[ghostclaws]

I am surprised competitors are still using this plastic scare tactics. Composites are not really plastic. They are used in dental restorations (the white front fillings are made of composites) and airplane structural parts. Dimensionally, they are very stable. From what I have read about the "ABS", everything has been positive. In some ways, they are superior to wood.  I definitely would not rule out Kawai because of this issue. IMHO, it's a non-issue.

GC

[intervals]

The Kawai Millenium III action is superb.  It's lighter feeling and amazingly fast.  I don't think there's a trill or sequence one can play that can out pace it.  There's also a beautifully smooth progression of touch as you go up the keys.

There's an incredible bias it seems against ABS.  I think that's unfair and unwarranted.  ABS parts have fewer humidity problems (my experience), and even the Larry Fine book (that people love to swear by) says techs have noted fewer problems with Kawai parts.

Yes, the piano industry is conservative.  Regardless, let your own ears and hands tell you what you like.  Maybe you'll like Kawai, maybe not.  For your own sake, keep an open mind.  That way, when you're finished testing out the pianos, you'll be confident the decision is yours and the best for you.
 

[Axtremus]

Found these:

https://www.kawaius.com/mIIIq&a.html

https://www.kawaius.com/mIIIq&a_2.html

[frederic.lu]

It's quite interesting topic for me. I also intend to purchase a new RX-3 these months. Is all new RX series equipt with new Millennium III action system? How can I identify it's not old ABS action system? Sometimes, we can not just rely on salesman's words.

[Axtremus]

It's quite interesting topic for me. I also intend to purchase a new RX-3 these months. Is all new RX series equipt with new Millennium III action system? How can I identify it's not old ABS action system? Sometimes, we can not just rely on salesman's words.

Yes, the RX series are equipt with the new "Millenium III" system... has been since some time in 2004.

How to tell if it's Millenium III or older ABS? The Millenium III is ALL BLACK in color, the older ABS is sort of a creamy peach color. Look through the strings into the hammer flanges -- those should be BLACK in colour. Ask the sales person to pull the action out so you can see it -- the wippen should be black, the jacks should be black, the wippen support flanges should be black. (If you have idea what "wippens" and "flanges" are... use this chart that shows you the names of different action parts: https://www.balaams-ass.com/piano/grndact.htm -- pieces #1, #10, #20, #30 are the big pieces that are easier to spot, and they should be BLACK.)

I played the Millenium III action and I like them just fine. But even more important, IMO, is to play those pianos yourself and let your fingers tell you which one you should like better. Pianos are tools to serve artistic endeavors. A lot of it can be very subjective. Yes, the Millenium III stuff is supposed to have some advantages over the older ABS and over wood by certain engineering/technological criteria. But that does not mean you have to like it more than the older ABS or more than wood when you actually play music with it.

Don't get hung up on "Millenium III". If you find yourself liking a piano with old ABS action better, get that piano. If you find yourself liking a piano with wood action better, get that piano. Find the "whole piano" you like, not just this technology or that technology inside the piano.

Good luck.

[Brian Lawson, RPT]

Axtremus, that is such a bad link to give - that drawing of an action would never work.

use this https://www.pianosonline.co.uk/images/Dain_P1.jpg

[gosch]

Today I had the opportunity to compare 4(!) brandnew RX models.
_After_ deciding on sound and overall impression, the technician also
pulled out the manual, which showed the new _black_ action-parts.
Not only has it a different color (black as opposed to 'peach-cream'), it also felt different.
For me, 'playability' was very good, but as it was said before here: this is subjective.

Between RX-1 and RX-2 there really is a big difference in sound and transparency of voices. Considering the relatively small difference in price, I would recommend RX-2 to anyone considering an RX-1 (as I have initially).

Now I can't wait to get it home.....

[frederic.lu]

Thanks ! Axtremus!
You had answer my question exactly !!
I know, I got to feel by myself, but at least, I got to know what piano I had palyed.
Your post is always quite helpful !!

[frederic.lu]

I had tried the " Millenium III" action sytem(RX-2) and old ABS(RX-3) action system side by side in a piano shop this weekend. The Millenium III act quite different compare to ABS.
1. The Millenium III is significant lighter than ABS.
2. The Millenium III on RX-2 sound harder than ABS on RX-3.
3. While press the key, the Millenium III feel harder than ABS on RX-3. Sorry, I don't know how to describe this feeling. While you press the key all down, there is damper(hope it's correct word) seems harder on Millenium III.
4. For single key repetition, Millenium III can palyed faster.
5. For pianissimo, Millenium III is easier to control.

There may still have some ABS action system in dealer's stock. If you are interesting in Millenium action system. You got to check, it's really easy to identify as Axtremus said.

Since I almost decide to buy RX-3 with Millenium III action system. But what I have seen in the piano shop, this RX-3 has a subscript " Conservatory ". Is it the special edition for "Conservatory" ?? Because the price is significant lower !! What's the difference between RX-3 and RX-3 Conservatory ??

Since there is also Shigeru Kawai ( SK series), it's claimed as had made. it's also adopt with Millenium III action system, special material,........ of cause it's almost double price compare to RX. Is any one experienced SK ?? Since it's not available in the shop, it's only available by order.

[Axtremus]

"Conservatory" vs. not "Conservatory" ... never heard of such a distinction here myself. I really doubt Kawai would make significantly different instruments and still call both of them "RX-3." Did you ask the dealer about WHY there is such a big price difference between the two? What did the dealer say? Are they both brand new, and both have the carbon action?

In any case, for me, when I look at cases like this, I have a very simply way to think about it:

1. If, just by playing and listening to the two pianos, you find that you like the cheaper piano better anyway, great! Just buy the one you like better. It's simple.

2. If you like both pianos just as much (or you cannot tell the difference between the two), just buy the cheaper one. (Why pay more if you like them both just as much?)

3. If you like the more expensive one more, well, tough, just have to decide whether you like the more expensive one enough to justify the price difference.

Good luck.