mephisto waltz no. 1

[Corsair]

ihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateiti hateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateitih ateitihateitihateitihateitihateitihateiti HATE IT

well not really but it's so hard to learn- anyone thats played the piece have any advice for me? i hate doing slow practice and i'm afraid thats what it's gonna take

[musicsdarkangel]

Definitely slow practice, don't tense up.

Also, for the arpeggios, don't cross your fingers over.  Practice moving your hand quickly to the next note.  Then add a couple more notes, etc.  at top speed or slowly.


If there are any particular sections that are giving you trouble, I can probably help.

[steinwayguy]

I did mindless "slow practice" on this piece for 8 hours a day for two months and it didn't help a bit. I'm sure I could write about 10 pages on this piece, if you provide specifics as to which sections you having trouble with.

[Glyptodont]

"Mephisto" was the devil. 

Maybe this waltz was aptly named.

[steinwayguy]

Also, what edition do you have, and I assume you're not playing the Busoni transcription?

[musicsdarkangel]

OK, slow practice may have not worked for you, but it sure did for me.

Slow practice is good combined with A Tempo practice.

[iumonito]

Clear your mind first.

You need an eclectic approach.  Learn the music (that is, how it sounds and flows) separately from learning the choreaography (how you play it).

Isolate the parts where you need a technical solution.  Minimize the movement required and try to play with no more effort and ension than the strictly necessary.

Read Lenau.

[Corsair]

ok... i'm using edition peters- hadn't heard of the busoni transcription but it doesn't sound pleasant!
the main sections i have trouble with are:
-page 5 (the music starts on page two in this copy) with the two demi-semiquavers on each beat (sounds like a grace-note and reminds me of gnomenreigen). i just find it really hard to get those accurately.
-on the next page there is a descending passage of split octaves in the right hand whilst the left hand plays chords. I can't get the whole way through this bit because my right arm cramps up on me about halfway though. Is my technique wrong or do just need to go to the gym and get some proper stamina?
-the frilly presto semiquavers; i can play them ok but its just at the end when you have to play them up and down an octave without a break that i start to lose clarity and my fingers just tense up.
-that absolute pregnant dog of an ascending run where the right hand has to play a two note chord every second note

the rest of the piece i find manageable enough but these bits just seem insurmountable to me at the minute

[hodi]

i don't understand why people bother studying this piece
it's so boring and lack of good melodies, so borrrrrrrrring and so hard

[Corsair]

well i agree. Musically i find the piece pretty uninteresting, but my teacher considers it to be every pianist's rite of passage and also i'm quite keen to impress in an upcoming repertoire exam.

[hodi]

well i agree. Musically i find the piece pretty uninteresting, but my teacher considers it to be every pianist's rite of passage and also i'm quite keen to impress in an upcoming repertoire exam.

u always play what your teacher tells u to play?
there are PLENTY of other difficult and much more beatiful pieces out there
this piece is just so boring i would never bother studying it even if i was a professional pianist.
u can impress with better and less difficult compositions

[Corsair]

yeah- but the piece has a reputation and by starting to learn it i've risen to a challenge which i'm not copping out of.

[iumonito]

If you don't find the poetry in this piece, you should not play it.  It is highly narrative and very well built.  It is orchestral in its conception (even though I find the piano version more rewarding than the orchestral one) and through and through poetic.

I find it surprising you did not mention the section with the jumps, which is very hard to play clean.  For your octaves find rest places, let gravity play the octaves for you and do not go farther away from the keyboard than necessary (minimize distance). 

Your trills, there is time between them; no need to rush.  Make sure you are rotating, but not too much.

Same principle for the appoggiaturas and for the scale with double notes you mention: find your landing note and hit the other note on your way there.  Same as Chopin Op. 25 #5.

Above all, do not give the climax before its due.  Which means: you have to go back to piano before you give it all out except for the one time you want to go all out (pretty much the last 3 messures).

[Corsair]

well i do find the piece very "narrative" as you put it and it cannot be denied that it depicts in vivid detail the dance in the village inn from lenau's "faust", i just find that harmonically it could be more interesting (but then i suppose that is the reason why most of my repertoire of choice is from the twentieth century- to give an example my current favourite piece of piano music is mussorgsky's pictures at an exhibition).

the section with the octave leaps, suprisingly, i don't have a problem with- i suppose it is just a case of some elements of my technique being more developed than others (another reason to play the piece as it is undoubtedly an important learning experience from a technical perspective). Thanks for the advice though, i'll bear it in mind when i practise the piece from now on.

another question, if you will:
in the slow section before the final flourish, how much rubato? it seems to warrant it and doesn't sound quite right, to me, when played totally rhythmically but i don't want to overdo it to the point of self indulgence.

[steinwayguy]

well i do find the piece very "narrative" as you put it and it cannot be denied that it depicts in vivid detail the dance in the village inn from lenau's "faust", i just find that harmonically it could be more interesting (but then i suppose that is the reason why most of my repertoire of choice is from the twentieth century- to give an example my current favourite piece of piano music is mussorgsky's pictures at an exhibition).

the section with the octave leaps, suprisingly, i don't have a problem with- i suppose it is just a case of some elements of my technique being more developed than others (another reason to play the piece as it is undoubtedly an important learning experience from a technical perspective). Thanks for the advice though, i'll bear it in mind when i practise the piece from now on.

another question, if you will:
in the slow section before the final flourish, how much rubato? it seems to warrant it and doesn't sound quite right, to me, when played totally rhythmically but i don't want to overdo it to the point of self indulgence.

Which section are you talking about, the, well I can't remember the exact tempo, but something like "poco allegretto e rubato" or the "un poco meno mosso"? If you're talking about the first one, then I don't use too much rubato at all, other than a small pause at the end of each phrase and a drawn out B-flat G D-flat before continuing the rest of the little diminished transitional element a tempo.

[rohansahai]

If there are any particular sections that are giving you trouble, I can probably help.

Thanks ! I'd like some help in this piece too. I'm at the first stage of learning it (going through the score, deciphering, simplifying) and here are the sections I think I may have some trouble with:
1.  The repeated chords in the beginning....my hands are small, so stretching them to cover all the notes.
2.  The glissando in the passage after the exposition....how to synchronize the right and the left hands doing that.
3.  The right hand tremolos, marked presto in the original liszt version(thats the one i'm using), and "vivo-fantastico" in the busoni edition. (it comes three times....one at the climax, which appears to be the most difficult).
4.  The big leaps iuomonito was talking about.
Thanks again.

[thalbergmad]

There are 3 other mephisto waltzes. I have never understood why the 1st is always played and the others rarely.

[steinwayguy]

Thanks ! I'd like some help in this piece too. I'm at the first stage of learning it (going through the score, deciphering, simplifying) and here are the sections I think I may have some trouble with:
1. The repeated chords in the beginning....my hands are small, so stretching them to cover all the notes.
2. The glissando in the passage after the exposition....how to synchronize the right and the left hands doing that.
3. The right hand tremolos, marked presto in the original liszt version(thats the one i'm using), and "vivo-fantastico" in the busoni edition. (it comes three times....one at the climax, which appears to be the most difficult).
4. The big leaps iuomonito was talking about.
Thanks again.

1. I really don't know how to help you with the stretch, but bring your hands up via your wrists every measure to relieve tension.
2. Either do an octave glissando with your left hand, which is a lot easier/cleaner, or use your two thumbs, and extend your middle right finger to the beginning of your left thumb (your finger and thumbs will form a rectangle). Also, practice stopping on the D and then hitting the E.
3. Practice this three ways. And by all means get out your metronome. I started practicing this at quarter note = 92 about. First, play them as block chords (Eb-Gb-Ab) so that you'll have three chords per bar instead of six sixteenths. Then, separate the chords only slightly, so that you play the Eb and the Gb as an appoggiatura to the Ab. Then finally practice it by doing the trills for longer than stated. For example, if you can do each trill for four bars a tempo, then those sections will be a breeze. As far as the last one goes, right after the climax, I just fake the left hand trill, because it is essentially a tremolo and articulation isn't vitally important. If you're worried about that three-bar chord sequences, play each chord three times and then proceed to the next chord doing the same.
4. These leaps for me are somewhat natural. I couldn't tell you what to do, other than practice them like all hell and make sure you're relaxed. When unable to play this section (a while ago) I started the metronome at 92 and every two minutes moved it up a notch until I got it to 138. If you do this enough, you will eventually be able to play the section relatively comfortably at 126, at least.

[nanabush]

I do not like this... Too many technical difficulties, and it sounds good and all, but it's soooo long and there are better pieces.  If you're really good, then go ahead, but I'm not going to waste my time...

[musicsdarkangel]

Thanks ! I'd like some help in this piece too. I'm at the first stage of learning it (going through the score, deciphering, simplifying) and here are the sections I think I may have some trouble with:
1.  The repeated chords in the beginning....my hands are small, so stretching them to cover all the notes.
2.  The glissando in the passage after the exposition....how to synchronize the right and the left hands doing that.
3.  The right hand tremolos, marked presto in the original liszt version(thats the one i'm using), and "vivo-fantastico" in the busoni edition. (it comes three times....one at the climax, which appears to be the most difficult).
4.  The big leaps iuomonito was talking about.
Thanks again.

1.  Yeah, Liszt wrote difficult stretches.  Hmmm, this is a difficult topic to cover, and all that I can suggest is to stretch your hands and fingers before playing (this might not help, but it is worth a try and will help your playing anyway).  You can also try taking a note in the right hand, but you will have to slow down, and roll some chords, however, rubato is always allowed.  (it depends on if you think it sounds good or not).
2.  Ahh yes....  Try playing one octave glissando first, start at the same time, and end at the same time...make sure the speed in each hand doesn't change.  Than try doing 2 octaves, 3, etc.  Never let the volume descrease. 
3.  I think that practicing this with ONLY wrist, and VERY slowly with exaggerated motion (and i mean really exaggerated motion) will help.  So, raise your wrist way higher than necessary, rotating back and forth, and slowly speed up, and lower the motion.  Then try practicing it slowly with low motion.  Make sure you are not beatmarking, meaning that you never accent any of these tremelos.  This helps with tension and speed.  Also, make sure that when you move from black key to white key, you are not moving your hand very much, but as little movement as possible.  Make sure that you are not tense, but that your thumb and pinky are in a fixed position for the wrist to rotate. 
4.  These big leaps are quite difficult.  I would recommend of course, practicing slowly, but what you do is after the first note (A) in the right hand, throw the right hand at the higher (AA) octave.  Do this with every one.  Do the same for the left hand, except throw it when you hit the low notes from the higher notes.  (this means whenever you have two 8th notes in a row, throw your hand at the 2nd, lower 8th note).  This will be messy at first, but will help you tremendously.  After this, just practice it slowly and normally.

This should help you, I could help you much more if you ever wanted to post or send me a video of you playing your trouble spots.

[steinwayguy]

3. I think that practicing this with ONLY wrist, and VERY slowly with exaggerated motion (and i mean really exaggerated motion) will help. So, raise your wrist way higher than necessary, rotating back and forth, and slowly speed up, and lower the motion. Then try practicing it slowly with low motion. Make sure you are not beatmarking, meaning that you never accent any of these tremelos. This helps with tension and speed. Also, make sure that when you move from black key to white key, you are not moving your hand very much, but as little movement as possible. Make sure that you are not tense, but that your thumb and pinky are in a fixed position for the wrist to rotate.

what is that?

[ramseytheii]

By the way, does anybody have an English translation of the scene from Lenau that Liszt was illustrating?

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

4. These leaps for me are somewhat natural. I couldn't tell you what to do, other than practice them like all hell and make sure you're relaxed. When unable to play this section (a while ago) I started the metronome at 92 and every two minutes moved it up a notch until I got it to 138. If you do this enough, you will eventually be able to play the section relatively comfortably at 126, at least.

Does it need to be 138, or were you just pushing yourself?  I think I played this passage at Half note = (approximately) 69, or maybe = 76 to add an extra edge.
This passge does seem to come naturally for many people, myself included.  I don't find it difficult to play the right notes, but rather to get the right sound, which has to be so light it is almost unbelievable.  So my practice was devoted to balancing the sound in all the piano registers, and to making the most flexible hand you can imagine.

I worked on flexibility by playing slowly RH alone, and on the octaves, I would play them twice, the first with an accent and the second as a rebound, very soft.  Then when I played it normally, I would imagine that I was playing each octave twice, but really played it once, and my hand was able to rebound very fast.

For the middle range, where the RH plays with the index finger and the LH has chords (not the bass line), I imagined a melodic connection between the RH notes and the thumb of the LH chords.  For instance, A-E#-A#-E#-D#-E#-A-E#-A-F#-A#-F# (hope those are all right).  The reason I practiced like that was to balance the sound between the pithy index notes and the more robust LH chords.  It worked very well for me, and also was able to achieve greater flexibility in the LH because it is easy to lose track of these chords in the RH difficulties, and then play all the notes at the same volume, which will ruin the sound aesthetic.

Then I imagined a separate melodic line in the bass line, which really solidifies the rhythm.

This is polyphonic practice, by the way; I have said it many times to many people's consternation, but it is the fastest and most efficient practical way toa chieve flexibility and your desired sound.

Walter Ramsey

[mike_lang]

Thanks ! I'd like some help in this piece too. I'm at the first stage of learning it (going through the score, deciphering, simplifying) and here are the sections I think I may have some trouble with:
1.  The repeated chords in the beginning....my hands are small, so stretching them to cover all the notes.
2.  The glissando in the passage after the exposition....how to synchronize the right and the left hands doing that.
3.  The right hand tremolos, marked presto in the original liszt version(thats the one i'm using), and "vivo-fantastico" in the busoni edition. (it comes three times....one at the climax, which appears to be the most difficult).
4.  The big leaps iuomonito was talking about.
Thanks again.

2. I play the glissando with my right hand only.  People tell me it looks painful, but the secret is to release immediately after the attack and gliss very shallow in the keys.

4. Try practicing the leaps slowly with your eyes shut.  Teach them to your tactile memory so that your eyes cannot second guess them.

Best,
ML

[moi_not_toi]

I don't see why everyone hates this song!
It's great! Especially of you hear it for Piano and Violin or on the Orchestra.
it's just depressing how some people can be so opinionated on a subject that is ALL about pleasure for both performer and audience.

[Waldszenen]

I don't see why everyone hates this song!
It's great! Especially of you hear it for Piano and Violin or on the Orchestra.
it's just depressing how some people can be so opinionated on a subject that is ALL about pleasure for both performer and audience.

"Piece". -_-

[alejo_90]

I don't see why everyone hates this song!
it's just depressing how some people can be so opinionated on a subject that is ALL about pleasure for both performer and audience.

I could tell the same about why so many people despise Tchaikovsky's first Piano Concerto or Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition, they're both amazing.

Best
Alex

[moi_not_toi]

"Piece". -_-

Screw you.
 
piece is not a word that I like to use all the time.
we've murdered it.
it should be removed from the english language.