Inexpensive Grands? Falcone, George Steck, Hamilton

[Barry N]

I have a son who his progessing well and in fact has been complemented repeatedly at the stores we have visited.  One inidividual also mentioned he was surprised that he had achieved this level on a digital Korg Concert.

What I'm hearing is that we need to be getting a grand and not a vertical and I do believe the reasons make sense.  Now this is all well and great but my budget is quite limited.

I can't see spending over 10,000 on a piano and even that is a stretch.  Maybe there would be a chance of going beyond that but that is the number the I have picked for the moment.

We have seen some different brands that apparently are all made by the same company and seem to have no differences except maybe the warranty.

These are the Falcone, George Steck, and Hamilton.  According to my research they are all being made by Sejung in China.

Does anyone have experience with these?  Part of the problem I realize is that it is unknown how well they will last and sound 20 or more years out.  Does anyone have any comments in that regard?

I would welcome any recommendations on finding quality in line with my budget or a little more if that is possible and yes used is being considered.

I am looking for duplex tone, 5'3" ish to 5'10" ish, black polyished, full sostenuto.  I do have Larry Fine's book and supplement and have educated myself through this forum, stores, etc as well but would appreciate any additional specific help.

I live in the SE Minnesota area and have visited many Schmitt stores, Hamilton, Jim Laabs and would invite any ideas for where to look or purchase.

Thanks for all the input!

[Glyptodont]

My experience may be of some help  . . . . ?

We bought a Howard grand in 5'8" size in 1990.  It was marketed and guaranteed by Baldwin, and is sometimes described in the literature as "Howard by Baldwin." 

It was made in Korea by Samick using at least some Baldwin parts.  Larry Fine gave it an acceptable rating, stating that it was not a bad value for the money.   It does have a duplex scale but does not have a sostenuto petal.  It is not unusual that lower cost pianos lack a sostenuto pedal, even including some of the less expensive Yamahas.  But you are right-- ideally the piano should have one.

It cost about half the price of the same size Baldwin piano.   I suspect this price range is some way comparable to the economy grands you are apprising.

I have had this Howard for 15 years now.  It plays fine and has no problems.  The tuner is pleased at very good tuning stability of this piano.  And of course, I would not have bought it if I did not think it sounded good.

Choose the one that your son thinks sounds the best.  Larry Fine said of the Howards that the sound differs from piano to piano-- some sounded good to him, some not so good.  He recommended judging the sound of individual pianos of this brand by playing them.

[iumonito]

If you have been to Jim Laabs, hopefully you became acquainted with Knabe, now made by Samick.  I have not played these pianos, so beware.  The scale (the design) is supposed to be an original Knabe scale and the materials better quality than most Asian pianos.  I would give Knabe serious thought.

On the question of the piano that sounds good, that is very tricky, because a poorly preped piano will sound crappy even though it has a lot of potential.  Voicing down the piano (that is, artfully punching holes in certain parts of the hammers) and playing it a bit may make a truly amaizing difference.

You will need a trusted technician.  It may be worth it asking the teacher to recommend hers/his, and taking this person piano shopping.  The technician may also be able to bargain the price very well, as they usually have superior knowledge about the margins in the industry.

$10,000 should buy you a nice 6 foot piano.

[Barry N]

Thanks for all the comments so far.

As far as the sound of each of these they seemed very satisfactory for the price.  Obviously not a Steinway or Bosendorfer but certainly good.  The only problem that was noticed was keys failing to fully return occasionally on the George Steck of which I was assured that would be resolved to my satisfaction.  However, that does remain to be somewhat of a concern.

Also, the George Steck and Falcone both definately have the sostenuto and I believe the Hamilton would too but didn't think to check when I was at that dealer.

Hamilton is being marketed under the umbrella of Baldwin.  It's interesting that Baldwin was doing this with the Howard brand of piano previously as well.

[jr11]

Do look into Pearl River and Ritmuller pianos. They will fit your budget, and the Guangzhou, China  plant has some impressive credentials:

- they are the largest manufacturer in the world
- one in seven pianos now sold in the US was built there
- Yamaha produces many of its models there
- Steinway has announced they will produce their entire Essex line there
- the Piano Technician's Guild in Kansas has a showpiece Pearl River grand they are using for training and examining their members

Pearl River in making very strong headway into the US market by keeping their pricing low, about 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of Japanese products, for now. The price will no doubt go up once the consumer grasps the value and quality, and that is happening VERY quickly.

[DarkWind]

Do look into Pearl River and Ritmuller pianos. They will fit your budget, and the Guangzhou, China  plant has some impressive credentials:

- they are the largest manufacturer in the world
- one in seven pianos now sold in the US was built there
- Yamaha produces many of its models there
- Steinway has announced they will produce their entire Essex line there
- the Piano Technician's Guild in Kansas has a showpiece Pearl River grand they are using for training and examining their members

Pearl River in making very strong headway into the US market by keeping their pricing low, about 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of Japanese products, for now. The price will no doubt go up once the consumer grasps the value and quality, and that is happening VERY quickly.

I have a Ritmuller, and it works perfectly. Beautiful tone, and everything works well!

[mamma2my3sons]

You may also want to try a Kohler & Campbell. A 5'9" can be had within your budget. It has a warm rich tone. I own one. It is made in Indonesia.

Some  less expensive grands are those made in Dongbei China (supposed to be the best Chinese factory) are Hallet Davis/Nordiska/Story & Clark. A 5'5" can be had for 6-7K. I believe Dongbei has a better reputation than Sejung.

The most important thing is to try *All* the pianos you can in your price range.


Best of luck to you.

[c18cont]

It has been said,

Pearl River is the piano of the future...()  ...It may be true...the one I know locally is of excellent sound, fairly bright without perhaps the power of some of the expensive pianos. I like it. It is in a university chamber room...

John Cont

[c18cont]

I do have an additional few questions as well ,

I do wonder at the many buy-outs, and new companies...

1-Who makes those un-named $4950 baby grands you often see advertised...any of them any good for a student?

2-A local in a conversation at the Junior college said some were now made in Mexico and South America...is this true ?   ()

Thanks...  John Cont

[pianopitchman]

JR11,

I agree that Guangzhou is begining to produce some good instruments and of all the Chinese companies, probably the top.
However, you state that Yamaha is making many of their models there.  That is not correct.  No pianos under the Yamaha name are made there.  Their is a Pearl River studio piano made that Yamaha has invested in and I believe the Eterna console (also owned by Yamaha) is still being produced there.

[teresa_b]

My parents recently bought a new Kohler & Campbell 6' grand, which is made by Samick.  It was about $10,000.  It is excellent!  The one they bought sounded about ten times better than the two smaller size K & C grands.  So I would suggest paying the extra $1000 or so to get the larger piano if it fits in your space.   

Good luck!

Teresa

[c18cont]

jr11,

So how are the Pearl River pianos that Yamaha has an interest in, identified...In other words, what are their mfgr's name's on the sndbd/plate/fall?

Regards..  John Cont

[pianopitchman]

C18,
The pianos that Yamaha has a stake in are simply labeled with the Pearl River name on the fallboard and plate.  They were including a small Yamaha label on the keyslip, but that has stopped.

[jr11]

JR11,

I agree that Guangzhou is begining to produce some good instruments and of all the Chinese companies, probably the top.
However, you state that Yamaha is making many of their models there.  That is not correct.  No pianos under the Yamaha name are made there.  Their is a Pearl River studio piano made that Yamaha has invested in and I believe the Eterna console (also owned by Yamaha) is still being produced there.

I don't know how to post photos on this message board, but I have a couple shots taken at the Pearl River factory of Yamaha pianos in crates and frames sitting side by side of Pearl Rivers and Ritmullers.

[quantum]

Don't rush this decision, have your son play all the pianos you can find.  I waited 10 years before I got the grand I have now (I'm not saying wait this long, but at least be thorough in your search). 

Look for big piano sales in your area, as these often give you the chance to compare many different makes and models side by side. 

I once found in my city a technician that went around searching for used pianos to fix, then sell them.  I visited his shop, and it looked like he did a good job restoring the pianos.  He sold them for very good prices.  I found out about him through one of my theory teachers who had bought from him.  If you can find such a technician in your city it may be worth the visit. 

Try as best you can get the largest grand you can afford.  Anything around 6'  would be ideal.  Try to stay away from very small baby grands, as shortened strings will diminish the piano's tonal capabilities.  Your son will also appreciate more the deeper and more robust bass tone on a larger piano. 

[Axtremus]

I don't know how to post photos on this message board, but I have a couple shots taken at the Pearl River factory of Yamaha pianos in crates and frames sitting side by side of Pearl Rivers and Ritmullers.

Well... can you be specific about exactly which specific models of Yamaha-branded piano you think are being produced by the Pearl River factory?

As far as I know, no Yamaha-branded grand piano is being produced in China. The smallest 4'11" GB1 is produced in Indonesia. All other Yamaha-branded grand pianos still come out of Japan. For uprights, my understanding is that the U-series are all coming from Japan, the T-116 and P22 made in USA, the T-121 from Taiwan... no idea about the other Yamaha-branded uprights.

(By "Yamaha-branded," I mean its fallboard unmistakably says "YAMAHA" in big letters.)

[jr11]

Let's see if this works

[img][https://tinypic.com/view.html?pic=54znes]

[img][https://tinypic.com/54zp77]

[img][https://tinypic.com/54zpkn]

Axtremus, I don't know the answer to your questions, but the photo links (though I still can't figure out how to actually show the images here) are definitive that Yamaha pianos are being produced in the Pearl River plant. If you doubt the authenticity, you are most welcome to verify through Pearl River America in LA. The pics were taken by a PR USA tech while on a recent trip to the factory.

[Barry N]

Here is an update and where things are at on our search.

I have visited or made contact with additional stores.  I have also gathered a lot of info over at the pianoworld forum.  Sejung is being touted as one of the inferior factories due to fit, finish, and least amount of time in the business.  I did notice one of the Falcone's at a reduced price due to finish problems.   The dealer offering the Steck has reduce the price making an extremely tempting offer.

Positive comments have been made about Dongbei products due to their longevity in the market and Nordiska is carried at one of these recent stores visited.  The Pramberger is also being praised on the other forum.  However, I was just told by a dealer that Samick may begin marketing and building the Young Chang which could be to the detrement of Pramberger.  Also, this same dealer said there is some kind of problem between the government, Samick and Young Chang so right now Young Chang is not shipping parts.  I cannot confirm the accuracy of this information.

Thanks for the Ritmuller suggestion.  I have a Pearl River dealer in town that does not stock Ritmuller but I have asked if they are able to get them and what the prices would be.

[pianopitchman]

JR11,

I owe you an apology.  Yamaha does produce two branded pianos at Guangzhou (a 42" and a 48").  Neither piano is available outside of China, so my original statement was true only from a US market point of view.

[jr11]

JR11,

I owe you an apology.  Yamaha does produce two branded pianos at Guangzhou (a 42" and a 48").  Neither piano is available outside of China, so my original statement was true only from a US market point of view.

Thanks pianopitchman. There are at least 3, as shown in my photo links... C110A, CJ-121 and U121C. The fact that the lettering on the boxes are in English leads me to believe they are shipped to some English speaking countries and are available to direct importers. Yamaha (naturally) is quite tighted-lipped about this. Even Pearl River, in interest of keeping their Japanese customers happy, says little. They simply have a production facility with available capacity, which they offer to all makers.

An interesting note is that as long as final assembly is done in Japan (ie: action and panel installation), it is legal to say that the piano was built in Japan. With this in mind, the origin of any piano is difficult to trace.

[c18cont]

I can tell you this much,

The picture links are good for other things..... indeed...,If you like bikes...(motor driven...)...,..see:  tinypic.com/2cls9l

John Cont

[Axtremus]

JR11, the authenticity of the photos is not my concern.

I simply wanted to know which Yamaha models are being produced in China as a matter of curiosity. I hear this line from Pearl River salespeople quite often that Pearl River somehow is "involved" in the production of Yamaha pianos, the subtext being that Pearl River is "just as good" as Yamaha. Pearl River wants to leverage Yamaha's reputation and that's fine by me. But -- Yamaha sells everything from 100k USD concert grand to sub 4000 USD uprights... I seek only to know which models involves Pearl River (and hopefully learn more about the nature of the involvement). Taking pianopitchman's posts and your posts/pictures, I now learn the C110A, CJ-121 and U121C uprights are made in China, and quite possibly involving Pearl River. pianopitchman maintains that those are confined to the Chinese market, you suggest that they may be shipped to some English speaking countries (which I suspect would include the South East Asian countries). I'm learning more already, that's cool, and thank you.

(BTW, RJ11, which country are you in?)

[jr11]

(BTW, RJ11, which country are you in?)

Canada, eh? 

[jolly]

Rittmuller at one time boasted Renner actions in most of the grand line. I do not think this is still the case. However, they are nice for what they are, and should be on anybody's "play" list , if one is considering a Chinese piano.

I would also recommend the different flavors of Dongbei, especially the Nordiska. The Heintzmann line may also be of interest if you have access to them.

Sejung? Must be doing something right...they are starting to build Bohemia in their factories.

[c18cont]

Question...

Prev....(Final assembly (Action/Panel)...done in Japan...then "Made in Japan"..)...IS IT TRUE FOR OTHER AREAS and COUNTRIES???

John Cont

[c18cont]

Hi Friends,

Maybe missed it somewhere...Local dealer is trying to sell me a Hazleton Brothers, very much like the other small grands in appearance....$250 less than the Pearl River at the best sale price I have seen...

There was an historical piano of the same name, and I even found some about antiques....but who makes one for the name today...anyone know...?

John Cont

[c18cont]

If I may post again,

I hear things about Samick right along...mostly not good...Can anyone confirm this in any way, beyond the patter on the forums?

Best,   John Cont