Practising scales. Why?

[stephane]

Hello to all,

I've been reading many messages in this forum and many people seem to practise scales. Some separately, some as part of learning a new piece.

If I learn a new peiee, what is the advantage of learning/practising the scale(s) of this piece?

I can imaging that you learn to know the most used notes and chords which is good to understand and memorise the piece.

What I don't get, is in what way you're helped with playing scales/arpeggios/chords in standard fingering while in the piece you might have different fingerings.
Or is this my mistake, do you always use the same fingering when playing scale runs or chords in a piece? (Until now my teacher always puts/adapts the fingering of my pieces)

I'm  pretty new at piano (playing almost 2 years now) so this might be a strange question to you, but I don't get it.

I'm currently playing/learning Clementi's Op. 36 part 2, Bach's Musette (Anna magdalena's notebook), Burgmüller's Op. 100 Innocence and some Cserny exercise.
In what way would practising scales/chords with standard fingering help me?

Kind regards,

Stephane

[Bacfokievrahms]

They'll help you learn how to adjust your hand to different note combinations, but they won't help you do that if you just play them. You have to look at them and think about what the best possible way to go from any number of white keys to black keys to white keys etc. is and where on the key to put your finger and what movement you're going to make to get there. But of course, few people have the dedication to do this with scales (rather than in pieces). I certainly do not.

[stephane]

Thanks Bacfokievrahms.

Until now I haven't been practising scales separately and my teacher isn't a fan of scales either, like many of the PF members. My teachers says you can better learn this technique from pieces. And I'm happy with this view since I guess scales are less fullfilling than pieces.

But still there are a lot of people (i.e. Bernard) who are against playing scales on their own but are pro playing scales in the context of a piece. So I'm looking for the advantage of doing the scales next to the piece. The different ways to put my fingers I will get by playing many pieces. So why the separate scales/chords/arps?

[xvimbi]

So why the separate scales/chords/arps?

Don't ask! Do your scales at least for an hour a day! And don't ask!

Just kidding of course. Well, being against purely technical exercises myself, there is benefit in playing scales, just like there is benefit in doing purely technical exercises. Playing scales will thoroughly ingrain how scales and their harmonic progressions sound. This makes a lot of things easier, for example, sight reading. You take a look at the key signature, and if you know your scales well, you will not miss any sharps or flats. If you know your finger patterns and hand positions well, you'll be able to sight read faster. You will also be able to detect mistakes more easily, in case you play a wrong note that doesn't belong to the scale, because you simply hear it. Therefore, I think, one of the biggest benefits of scales is for the ear. When combined with a thorough understanding of the underlying theory, there can be little argument that playing scales is useful. In terms of technical aspects, playing scales forces one to acquire good movements. But playing anything does so too, so this is not a real argument in favor of scales.

[stephane]

Xvimbi,

Thanks for your reply.

I didn't think of the ear. Indeed when a note is outside of the scale notes one can hear it. Though I mostly hear it in the music I play, since I get to know the music, I can imagine that it is very helpfull in sightreading. (I usualy play by memory since my sightreading is very poor  ). Though I'm a beginner, I find it especially handy to know the chords that come frequently with a certain scales as it makes my reading easier, especially left hand. I guess when practising the scales and the chords, you focus on recognising this.

I promis I will be doing my scales. Not for an hour dough since then there's nothing left for my pieces (Luckily my clementi piece already includes some scale runs in it ).

Cheers,

Stephane

[andric]

I believe that practicing scales creates a foundation for understanding music theory, and more specifically, for harmonic analysis.  Its actually pretty important to be able to analyze the harmony of a piece in order to play it well.

[whynot]

This is a good question, and even though you've already gotten great answers I want to weigh in, so you will hear one more person say, "play your scales!"  Almost all Western music is based on these sets of notes.  You really, really must know what those notes are-- how the patterns feel, how they look on your instrument and on paper, and how they sound-- in order to truly understand your instrument and the music.  You will encounter scales and partial scales within your pieces, but as you noticed, they tend to be in bits or starting/ending on different notes.  So your big chance to get solid experience in scales is to play them on their own.  The fingerings you'll use for scale runs in pieces will not always be exactly the same as the scale-on-its-own fingering,...BUT! the "dream" fingering for the scale, the one that allows you to play it the most quickly and elegantly (and hand in healthiest positions), is the starting place for your other fingerings.  The shapes and logic behind the scales fingerings will be the same shapes and logic for fingering your pieces.  So you have to know what those are!  Your teacher is choosing your fingerings now, but what about later on when you have to make your own decisions?  Or what about now, if your teacher is wrong about what works for you, and there's a faster, more comfortable fingering for you just waiting to be discovered?   If you can't play the scales that relate to your pieces quickly, comfortably, and beautifully, then you won't play the pieces as well as you could.  And beyond fingerings, understanding how each scale and key "works" is the broad basis for music theory (I know this has been said, I just want second/third it).  Get fluent, get comfortable, and you can do almost anything.     

The goal is to be fluent in every key. 

P.S.  I believe Bernhard is not against playing scales-- I think scales and arpeggios are his big exception to etudes and drills.  We should do a search on this.       

[m1469]

Well, for those interested here are some great posts by Bernhard on the subject.  I am sure there are more, but these are the only threads about it whose #s I had memorized already   

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5207.msg53748.html#msg53748
(why they are important)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2533.msg21955.html#msg21955
(practicing scales)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8110.msg81884.html#msg81884
(a bunch of links to scale-related topics)

m1469

[bernhard]

Yes, bafokievrahms, xvimbi, andric, whynot are all very right. 

As xvimbi said scales are important for the ear. In fact, for the majority of instruments, scales are essential simply to train oneself in eliciting the right pitch from the instrument. No one can play the violin, for instance without intensive and extensive scale practice outside pieces.

The piano however, does not really require that sort of practice because one does not need to intonate the sound: the sound is already there (and out of tune, anyway, so there could even be some argument towards not practising scales on the piano if you want to train your ears – I know that many singers advise against getting the bearings from the piano). However, the piano being a relatively recent newcomer in the instrument scene, it both profits and suffers from the accumulated wisdom of centuries of practice in other instruments. So, scale practice on the piano suffers from blind imitation of other instrument’s practice routines (if scales are good for violins and flutes, it must be good for piano too or so goes the reasoning). Not to mention the practice (and technical idiosyncrasies) heritage of the clavichord/harpsichord and fortepiano – most of which are woefully inadequate for the demands of a modern piano.

Having said that, I am not at all against the practice of scales. Quite the opposite I have said several times that as far as I am concerned, the practice of scales is essential, for all of the reasons already mentioned in the thread.

What I don’t care for is the practice of scales as some kind of mind numbing mechanical exercise for finger strength and dexterity – ultimately a waste of time and a misguided enterprise. I cannot find any benefit to be derived from sitting at a piano for 1 or 2 hours and playing scales (and arpeggios) up and down.

The real benefit of studying and practising scales is the facility in recognising keys straightaway. But unless you aim your practice at this, you will not achieve it. I know plenty of grade 8 students who can ripple through all the 24 major and minor scales, and yet cannot spot and identify modulations in a piece.

Personally, I think that the best way to practise scales is to work on the scales of the piece one is currently learning by improvising on them. This will develop everything: musicality, improvisation, quick musical thinking, ear training, ability to transpose, you name it. Most importantly it provides a musical context for your practise that will immediately highlight where your deficiencies are so that you can concentrate on overcoming them.

I have already discussed all this before, some of it in great detail.  I suggest you have a look here (to add to m1469's threads):

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2429.msg21061.html#msg21061
(Technical studies x pieces – the genesis of Studies and how Czerny derived his exercises from Beethoven sonatas -  why scales are useless and at the same time essential – Chopin x Kalkbrenner story – Unorthodox fingering for scales).


https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2313.msg19807.html#msg19807
(Speed of scales - important factors in speed playing - alternative fingering for scales).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2533.msg21955.html#msg21955
(structured plan to learn scales and arpeggios – includes description of repeated note-groups and other tricks)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756
(complete unorthodox fingering for all major and minor scales plus explanation)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2701.msg23134.html#msg23134
(Teaching scales – the cluster method and why one should start with B major).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2758.msg23889.html#msg23889
(scales & compositions – the real importance of scales is to develop the concept of key, not exercise)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2920.msg25568.html#msg25568
(how to play superfast scales)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2983.msg26079.html#msg26079
(Best order to learn scales – what does it mean not to play scales outside pieces)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2998.msg26268.html#msg26268
(Scales HT, why? – Bernhard on top form explaining why and when to practise scales HS and HT – Pragmatical  x logical way of teaching – analogy with aikido – list of piano techniques – DVORAK – realistic x sports martial arts – technique and how to acquire it by solving technical problems – Hanon and why it should be avoided - Lemmings)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3499.msg31548.html#msg31548
(using scales as the basis for free improvisation)

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[Tash]

this is just my one quick experience in the benefit of practicing my various types of scales- i had to play chromatic thirds by both hands for grade 8, and kept doing them after i passed the grade cos my teacher is obsessed with scales, so i can play them pretty fluently. and then i start playing chopin's berceuse and woopee the right hand's playing chromatic 3rds! so that just made my life that little bit easier cos i didn't have issues with that part.
and i just like scales to warmup.
but yeah listen to all the champs above this post cos they know what they're talking about!

[stephane]

Andric, Whynot, m1469, Bernard and Tash,

Thanks a lot for your usefull replies.
I know now what I'm going to practise, WHY and how. For me this why is always important. I don't like doing things without knowing why.

You and the links gave me VERY usefull ideas about what to practise and how.
I'm going to start with identifying all the scales of my pieces and try to look more deeply for modulations.
Also I will focus on seeing how the notes fit in the scales and practise the scaleruns and chords/arps separately. Also will be looking for how the chords fit in the I-IV-V or other patterns.

I won't be doing any other scales right now since I have to prepare my 4 pieces for my exams on 10th June. After that I want to start with the scales of my new pieces and then bit by bit start adding scales, according to the ideas you gave me.

Bernard,

Thanks for all the ideas in so many links. I'm quite certain I'm going to gain benifit out of them.
Also the improvisation based on the scales in your last link seems something very interesting. As a new piano player I always thought improvisation is way out of my reach. I still think it is but the ideas you gave are certainly a good point to start. Let's see what I get out of it. If not good improvisations, at least knowledge of the scales I practise on.


Tash,

Thanks for the links. Unfortunately the first and last link don't seem to work for me. Could you repost them please.

Did I say THANKS TO ALL OF YOU yet? Thank you.

Kind regards,

Stephane