What Concerto should I play???

[viking]

Hi.  I was wanting some advice on which concerto I should play.  My 16 year old friend won this huge concerto competition and is playing with an orchestra next year, and I need a piece that can do the same  (he played tchaikovsky 1) .   I was thinking about the Rach 3 (1st mvmt).  Im also 16.  any suggestions???  my other pieces include heroic polonaise, la campanella, 3rd mvmt of moonlight, a 5 voice fugue, and some others. 

[hodi]

i think rach2 is a better choice.. rach3 is overplayed and VERY long and very difficult.

[Ruro]

Ah, I prefer the third movement in Rach 3...

I just got the Prokofiev Piano Concerto's (All 5?) of them from the Library, and I'm currently enjoying the 4th Concerto, almost finished them through :/
I just knew they were going to be fantastic, perhaps you could perform one of them, they are too sweet to miss ^_^

Whether they are over played is beyond me though... I guess someone else can note that?

[musicsdarkangel]

Don't tackle the Rach 3 now, trust me, you'll be happy you waited until later on in life.

Check out Gershwin f minor, Mendelssohn g minor (classic), Mendelssohn D major, Brahms concertos no 1 and 2 (these are incredibly difficult though, like the Rach 3, but if you are looking at the Rach 3, i'd recommend checking these out), All of the Prokofiev concertos, Chopin concertos 1 + 2, Liszt concertos (you can learn a full concerto, they are relatively short), Schumann concerto in A minor, Scriabin concerto in f sharp minor, and Khatchaturjan concerto.


Before selecting a concerto, listen to ALL of them.  Remember, you will be spending a lot of time on these.


If you are going to do only one movement of a really hard concerto, you might as well learn the Rachmaninoff Pagannini variations, they are quite difficult, but 25 minutes long.

The Liszt Totentanz, Stravinsky Burleske, and Franck Symphonic Variations are all beautiful, and amazing in their own way.  These are all one movement, and somewhere from 10-18 minutes long.  All of them are challenging as well.  You must give these a listen.


If you need ANY of these concertos, I can send them all to you through Aol Instant Messenger.

If you don't want me to send you any of them, www.karadar.com is a good start.  Go to that link, click on Cocoa, sign up, make a compilation, and download.

Unfortunately, the recordings aren't the best, but you'll get the idea.

[viking]

Hi.  I dont think i would go with anything schumann or mendelssohn, maybe a little easy.  The competition is 16 to 30 years so its pretty serious, all instruments too.  I played Liszt 2nd concerto in it this year but didnt advance.  Its not that i didnt play good, but you have to be insanely good. I was thinking Chopin 2 or Rach 1?  Rach 2 is vastly overplayed.  Thanks for the comments!!!


SAM

[Goldberg]

Rach 1 is the best option so far, I think (though musicdarkangel's concerti are all excellent--most are "overplayed" though and that could cause problems in competition) along with the Brahms 1st; though if you were to do that one, it may be challenging to show the typically skeptical judges a true "maturity" (especially against 30 year olds) so you may want to avoid it. Same with the latter Rach concerti, for that matter.

Rach 1, however, is excellent because it is an earlier piece of his, written for a competition at his conservatory when he was...17 or something? I dunno, it wasn't too old of course. It has a brilliant structure, excellent melodies, and is technically demanding. It is also a lot less played than the middle two (whose technique is decidedly more difficult), though I understand the Rach 1 is starting to make a comeback--so play it while you can, heh.

Chopin 2 wouldn't be such a bad choice either, imo, though last night I heard a rather unsatisfactory (not entirely bad) recording of Hamelin playing it; proof that it may be difficult to get the proper stylistic effects, moreso than the Rach. It's also interesting that Chopin composed that when he was 17 or so.

[keys]

Hi. I dont think i would go with anything schumann or mendelssohn, maybe a little easy. The competition is 16 to 30 years so its pretty serious, all instruments too. I played Liszt 2nd concerto in it this year but didnt advance. Its not that i didnt play good, but you have to be insanely good. I was thinking Chopin 2 or Rach 1? Rach 2 is vastly overplayed. Thanks for the comments!!!


SAM

Hey Sam,

You sound really familiar! Does your friends name start with a 'Y' and end with a 'uli'?
Anway, I love the Bartok Concertos, they're amazing. All of them. Although I don't think they'd translate as well from orchestra to two pianos as the other pieces listed. Just because they're so percussive.

[Goldberg]

Yeah, I was going to mention Bartok as well (I've been hooked on Cziffra's ultra-famous Budapest recording of the 2nd for several weeks now...) but...yeah, I think they'd be kind of weird to play in a competition. Definitely worth learning when the time's right, though (the others as well).

But I'll throw another one that may interest you: Dvorak G minor. That's a piece that will require the sort of "maturity" expected of a pianist (and you'll garner skepticism, I think, from the judges) but technically I don't think it would be as difficult as the Rach 2-3 or, indeed, Bartok for that matter. And the first movement, at some 20 minutes or so, is plenty of material to get yourself established in the competition, with room left over. The same could be said of the Brahms 1st.

I still think the Rach 1 is the strongest, soundest option though.

[viking]

Hey Keys?? Yes my friend us Yuli, are you Yuli???   You gotta tell me who you are. 
SAM

[keys]

Hey Keys?? Yes my friend us Yuli, are you Yuli??? You gotta tell me who you are.
SAM

Haha Sam's a member of piano forum! NERD! Just kidding. I'm Meredith.  Good ol' talented Yuli winning everything.. well, winning or quitting. I wanted to tell you you did a good job of the polonaise on saturday. Good luck with the search for the Concerto. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the Tchaik, if I'll keep it for my grad concert or pick a new one. I probably should've emailed this to you instead of posting it.. oh  well. Now they all know.

[nanabush]

Anyone from Ottawa, or even more specifically anyone here go To Colonely By in gloucester on this forum?  Probably not but whatever..

[apion]

Hi.  I dont think i would go with anything schumann or mendelssohn, maybe a little easy.  The competition is 16 to 30 years so its pretty serious, all instruments too.  I played Liszt 2nd concerto in it this year but didnt advance.  Its not that i didnt play good, but you have to be insanely good. I was thinking Chopin 2 or Rach 1?  Rach 2 is vastly overplayed.  Thanks for the comments!!!


SAM

Rach 3 would be a very good choice, as would Rach 1, Brahms 1, Brahms 2, Liszt Totentanz, Strauss Burleske, and Prokofiev 3.

Rach 2 is vastly overplayed, but it's a fantastic competition piece if you can pull it off.  Judges eat it up.

If you want a showpiece that's easier than Rach 3, but more difficult than Mendelssohn and Schumann, consider the Saint-Saens #2.

[SteinwayTony]

I don't care what you play.  As long as it's difficult.  Because that's what matters.

 

[steinwayguy]

I don't care what you play. As long as it's difficult. Because that's what matters.

 

Ha.


In all seriousness, if you played Liszt A Major, I think you should tackle the first movement of Rachmaninoff 3rd, Prokofiev 3rd, Beethoven 4th or Brahms 2nd. But be forewarned- all are tremendous endeavours.

[viking]

Thanks for all the input, im learning the ossia cadenza from the Rach 3 and its not that hard, so i think ill try to learn the first movement, and if that fails, ill try the rach 1. 
SAM

[Corsair]

bartok 1, amazing piece... i think it sounds fine on 2 pianos

[Rach3]

Thanks for all the input, im learning the ossia cadenza from the Rach 3 and its not that hard,

LOL! Good one! 

[viking]

Is that sarcasm (Rach3) ?  because if it is ill record myself and post it in a month,  the ossia cadenza is actually much MUCH easier than it looks and sounds.  If your not sarcastic,  I appologize for the accusation, its tough to tell in a forum.
SAM

[Rach3]

No real offence, but anyone who recommends Brahms' second to a 16-year old, under any circumstances, loses all my respect. Ditto with Rachmaninoff's third.

More input - Beethoven 4 is a serious boondoggle, incredibly hard to perform (even beyond the hard notes) - Beethoven 5 ("The Emperor") is a much better recommendation, although your judges WILL have very high expectations from this piece. Beethoven 3 (c minor) is a great concerto, you might want to go with that.

Grieg is reasonable, its very beautiful even if its over-played (I personally would rather not have to listen to it again for at least ten more years). Schumann has enough transperacy and simplicity that it is very hard to make it effective. I don't really see why Liszt 2 wouldn't work...

With Rachmaninoff I'd recommend no. 1 or maybe 4... you could do no. 2 but it's dangerously well-known (also a bit hard). Paganini and the 3rd are dangerously mature works which would take a lot more effort than anything else.

Don't tackle the Rach 3 now, trust me, you'll be happy you waited until later on in life.

Check out Gershwin f minor, Mendelssohn g minor (classic), Mendelssohn D major,

I've never heard of this one, thought he only wrote the two?

-Rach3

[Rach3]

Err... I play the ossia cadenza, and looking back over the last three years I regret having learnt it... I'm now learning the regular (non-ossia) one becuase it's perhaps more powerful, musically interesting, and it's the one Rachmaninoff himself preferred (I'm hypocritical, because I don't really agree with Rach's own performance of it, contemporaneously Horowitz was much better, and I suspect Rach knew that...). Plus, the ossia is viciously hard and it would seriously try me in performance, more so even than most of the rest of the movement. No exaggeration there.

With sincerity,
-Rach3

[Rach3]

I will add a bit to my previous post - my problem with the ossia (besides its difficulty) is that it's too climatic, it unblances the concerto as a whole and takes away from the rest of the movement.

Btw, if you're just reading parts of the Rach 3, go to page 5 - top of page 6, this I think is the hardest technical difficulty in the movement (actually that's not my idea, a concert pianst told me that, and I believe him). If you're competing with an entire concerto (as opposed to a single movement) - the intermezzo is perhaps harder than the first, and the finale is an order of magnitude worse than either.

Just my $0.02 (not adjusted for inflation).

-Rach3

[SteinwayTony]

Rachmaninoff probably preferred it because he could play it.

[Rach3]

Well, I read somewhere that he felt dissatisified with the original (ossia) for musical reasons (too disruptive in the piece), so he wrote the second one and liked it. The Horowitz I have ('78) does the 2nd (non-ossia) and it's brilliant (and Horowitz knew Rachmaninoff quite well).

[Rach3]

Rachmaninoff probably preferred it because he could play it.

Though I'm sure this important too. 

[apion]

No real offence, but anyone who recommends Brahms' second to a 16-year old, under any circumstances, loses all my respect. Ditto with Rachmaninoff's third.

Huh?  If you can play Liszt 2 (which is extremely difficult), it's not a far stretch to be able to play one movement of Brahms 2. 

[Rach3]

With Brahms, it's more a consideration of musical difficulty and maturity than anything else. I don't play this concerto, some pianists on this forum could say more.

[apion]

I was thinking about the Rach 3 (1st mvmt).  Im also 16. 

With Brahms, it's more a consideration of musical difficulty and maturity than anything else. I don't play this concerto, some pianists on this forum could say more.

I agree that the entire Brahms piano concerto no. 2 is probably off limits for a 16 yr old (although Kissin likely did it at age 14) -- but ONE MOVEMENT of the Brahms 2 is not so out of the question.

[viking]

Hi.  I completely agree the ossia cadenza unbalences the music, and rachmaninoff thought it was more of an ending that should be saved for last movement.  I dont think i would ever play brahms, as the 1st movement is too tough to play musically as well as technically perfect, and there isnt really another movement that could be played alone.  However, the ossia cadenza is super fun!  Im looking more towards rach 1, it shouldnt be impossible to play the whole thing.  Ill save competing with rach 3 till 2 or 3 years down the road.
SAM

[jamie0168]

Does nobody here like Mozart concertos?  or am I just a few levels below everyone else? 

[apion]

Does nobody here like Mozart concertos?  or am I just a few levels below everyone else? 

The Mozart concerti are great, and they are below nothing.

[steinwayguy]

Does nobody here like Mozart concertos? or am I just a few levels below everyone else?

Who's going to win, somebody who plays the hell out of the Jeune Homme or somebody who plays the hell out of the Brahms B-flat?

[keys]

hey sam,

Yuli says hi and thinks that you should play tchaik 2

[musicsdarkangel]

If you are going to do Brahms, do his first concerto: it is possible, and gorgeous.

[stebroccm]

If you can play La Campanella and Heroic Polonaise very well, then Rach 3 will not really be that much of a push technically, as there isn't much in it that's really unusual.  The main challenge is its length and CONSISTENT level difficulty, but each section by itself is really pretty much manageable.  Just allow yourself a good 2 years to put it together, and be patient (one of the common downfalls among people who play this piece is their impatience and expecting it to come as redily as a 5 minute etude). 

The main reservation I would have, though, would be about the current size of your repertoire.  If you haven't yet played any (or many) pieces in the 30-50 minute range (and I don't know whether you have or haven't), you probably should learn a few before doing the Rachmaninov.  This is not so that you'll be better prepared to play Rach, but just so that you don't end up with a puny repertoire when you're 25 because you lost 2 years in your to one big piece.   But if you've already got some big rep under your belt, go for it. 

[cheny]

Hey Sam!

Whats up?! Doing concerto competition again? If you are, then you should either try Tchaik 2 OR Chopin E minor. Tchaik 2 has a lot of good moments. Musically, its better than the first (the first is just over rated). It begins triumphant and It allows the pianist to show a lot of emotion and technical skills. Chopin E minor would suit you well. Its a very pianistic concerto.

If you can play La Campanella and Heroic Polonaise very well, then Rach 3 will not really be that much of a push technically, as there isn't much in it that's really unusual.  The main challenge is its length and CONSISTENT level difficulty, but each section by itself is really pretty much manageable.  Just allow yourself a good 2 years to put it together, and be patient (one of the common downfalls among people who play this piece is their impatience and expecting it to come as redily as a 5 minute etude).

I'm sorry stebroccm but I don't quite agree with this statement (not all of it anyways). I agree that Rach 3 isn't technically too challenging (probably at a grade ten technical level). But it takes a great deal of maturity to play it well. Musically, it contradicts almost everything that a pianist learns. For example, some of the "joyful" moments in the piece are actually meant to be cries of desperation etc. I've heard many rendetions of this concerto and very few were played well. In fact, at CMC national final in Calgary, I heard an adjudicator remark at a performance of the Rach 3:

"It was an idiotic choice for *bleeps name* to play. It sounded like she didn't know what she was doing. Way too cautious and very poorly played"

However, there may be the occasional child genius who just happens to understand the concerto fully.

Anyways yeah...I wouldn't touch that concerto for about 3 or four years. (my teacher laughed in my face after i asked for it...that traumatized me...lol)

I would do Chopin or Tchaik 2.

[viking]

Yuli!!!!!!  
Did meredith show you this forum?? i gotta get both your guys email addresses.  add me on msn norwegian_power@hotmail.com.  And yuli, can you reccomend a recording of Tchaik 2?? ive never heard it and there are limited recordings available.  anyway, im listening to lots and i might just learn rach rhapsody. I'll have lots of time this summer to practice.  Hopefully you have msn so you can add me. 
SAM

[stebroccm]

I'm sorry stebroccm but I don't quite agree with this statement (not all of it anyways). I agree that Rach 3 isn't technically too challenging (probably at a grade ten technical level). But it takes a great deal of maturity to play it well. Musically, it contradicts almost everything that a pianist learns. For example, some of the "joyful" moments in the piece are actually meant to be cries of desperation etc. I've heard many rendetions of this concerto and very few were played well. In fact, at CMC national final in Calgary, I heard an adjudicator remark at a performance of the Rach 3:

"It was an idiotic choice for *bleeps name* to play. It sounded like she didn't know what she was doing. Way too cautious and very poorly played"

However, there may be the occasional child genius who just happens to understand the concerto fully.

Anyways yeah...I wouldn't touch that concerto for about 3 or four years. (my teacher laughed in my face after i asked for it...that traumatized me...lol)

I would do Chopin or Tchaik 2.

This point is well taken, Sure, all great pieces require a lot of maturity to play well, and I would say this actually applies more to Chopin's concerti than Rachmaninov's (although the Tchaik concerti can be played well by anyone who can play the notes). 

Still, that's no reason not to go ahead and learn the notes early (presupposing of course that you can). 

[Rach3]

(although the Tchaik concerti can be played well by anyone who can play the notes). 

 

[steinwayguy]

I don't really see how you could compare La Campanella and the Heroic Polonaise to Rachmaninoff's Third. I mean, I'm one of the few who thinks the Rach 3 is definitely manageable, but it's eons ahead of La Campanella and the Heroic Polonaise. Yes, these pieces are hard, very hard even, and short. The Rach 3 is ridiculously hard and ridiculously long and it's insanely dense.

[viking]

I totally agree, to an extent.  To play the whole concerto would be rediculous, but the technique isnt that tough in the first movement, and its only 17 min long.  Although technically it's quite easy, musically, its the toughest.  The 3rd movement is probabably the technically most challenging music out there, but musically its easy.  Ill save the 1st movement for when or if i want to put 5 hours a day into it or more. 
SAM

[Rach3]

and its only 17 min long.

That's even shorter than the Tchaik 1 first movement!

-Rach3

[cheny]

Ahhh...lol...talking about Rach 3 gives me a headache lol. Just thinking about it makes my head hurt...its so huge.

Back to Sam's previous question:

A good recording of Tchaik 2 and 3 are played by Peter Donahoe. There's one at your local library if you just happen to live where sam lives:P

[apion]

If you are going to do Brahms, do his first concerto: it is ...... gorgeous.

          

[klavierkonzerte]

or you could play somthing less ordinary like
moscheles third, which used to be popular
scharwenka first
dohnanyi second
any of glazunov
raff
any of stenhammer
all of those concertos are demanding and impressive

[musicsdarkangel]

Dohnanyi is excellent.

[Bouter Boogie]

What about Gershwin's concerto in F? 
I mean.. Rach 3 is also one of my favourites but it's so overplayed 

[klavierkonzerte]

if you are playing a single movment of a concerto you could try the third movment of massenet concerto which    UNBELIVABLY AMAZING     but good luck finding the score
if anyone has it PLEEEEEEEEEEASE send it to me and i would pay you if you want 

[brsmpianist]

Check out Gershwin f minor, Mendelssohn g minor (classic), Mendelssohn D major,

I think you meant Mendelssohn dminor... and I would agree with the Gershwin F Major, the Rach 4, or the Beethoven 3rd

Good luck!