Help - Really need some tips..!!

[SDL]

Im an advanced pianist but I still cannot get through the tremelos in Liszt's Legend no2 without aching (1.5 pgs of 2  groups of 8 x demis, and another page of 2 groups of 6 x semis with changing pedal notes) or download from
https://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/compositions_b/lz_paola.pdf
(https://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/single_listing.cfm?composer_id=24 "St Paulo Walking on water" under miscellaneous) Ive even performed this in concert as a student but was not comfortable with it.

 Ive tried bouncing 8ves first for relaxation, then incorporating the broken 8ve supination/rocking but I get tired.  My right hand seems to be ok and Ive tried the right teaching the left.. my right hand can shake pretty fast and relaxed from side to side I tried this with my left but just seems to get tired.  Can any of you teachers give me some more ideas broken down in stages - this is one weakness Ive never been able to crack.  This is a piece in my next solo recital in September so I would really like to crack the tremelo for good.  I have a teacher but I dont go for my lesson for 3 weeks (usually once every month!) and Im working on other stuff as well.   Also Ive learnt alot more on this forum than my teachers.


If you know this piece, could you also tell me whether its a done thing to split the passage starting on pg 3 last line and first line on page 4 between lh and rh.  Ive heard recordings of this playing at a terrific speed which seems impossible with just lh turning back to and fro.

Thanks for your help

[tds]

its good to do up/down and in/out movements on long tremoli and trills. for tremoli, on the down beats, hand is in down and out position. there should be a cyclic motion for these monotonous passage. tds

[SDL]

hey tds - the weird thing is my trills are good - I have no problem lh & rh apart from the 5-1 trill in lh of course!!

[SDL]

p.s tds - I don't know what you mean up/down in/out?  Can you explain please

[tds]

p.s tds - I don't know what you mean up/down in/out?  Can you explain please

up=higher hand from key
down=lower
in=hand closer to the black key/hand away from the body
out=away from the balck key/hand closer to the body

up/down and in/out motion should be done MINIMALLY. when done up to speed, it's hardly visible but there and FELT. i hope i am clearer. tds

[tds]

oh btw, the point of doing this cyclic motion ( up/down and in/out ) on tremoli is so that one can do tremolo effortlessly and longer. don't you wanna tremole ( is it a word ) for 15 minutes flat out without getting tired? tds

[SDL]

do you mean in a circular movement - like constantly?

[tds]

hmm, usually, when people talk about circular movement, the leteral motion is much involved. this cyclic up and down, and in and out motion is not quite. your hand is pretty much aligned in certain way to do the up/down and in/out motion.

[SDL]

ok Im lost.  Tremelo - usually supination (a rocking left and right which reduces to minimal movements the faster you go).  Up/down is more bouncing 8ves. In/Out - trills when you change fingerings in mid-trill to keep it going.  Can you describe with an example rather than an overview?

[SDL]

Or do you mean like a down/up beat every say every group for e.g - because Ive tried this.

[abell88]

SDL, this may help you (or it may not!) -- it's from the Taubman Institute and shows the movement applied to repeated octaves.

https://www.taubman-institute.com/html/shaping1.mpg

[SDL]

abe thanks.  So I could apply that to the tremelo!  I couldn't hear the video (no sound) but I think I get the message.  Thanks I will try that tonight 

[tds]

SDL, this may help you (or it may not!) -- it's from the Taubman Institute and shows the movement applied to repeated octaves.

https://www.taubman-institute.com/html/shaping1.mpg

thanks, abell88. tds

[SDL]

wouldnt it be great if there were similar videos on the harder chopin etudes etc?

[anda]

1. about the tremolos: what helped me (with this work, as well as with "con mortuis in lingua mortua" - which i actually found more challenging, tremolo-regarding) is constantly changing the active segment of the aparatus (work with the upper arm for 2 or 4  groups, then work the next 2 or 4 with the forearm, and so on) - this way, each segment gets time to relax while the other is working actively.

2. about splitting lh/rh the passage: i didn't, because it helped me relax my right arm (plus the fact that this is quite a relaxing passage, after the passage in broken octaves before...)

best luck

[SDL]

Hi all,

tremelos - I tried the taubman shaping with the tremelos but didn't acheive it with much success.  I actually do the taubman movement with repeated 8ves naturally but tremelos give the added problem of rocking.  Ive asked them a question and would be interested to see what they reply with on this one.

Hey anda, have you heard mark anderson or Jeno Jando play the lh/rh passage referred to? Have you got other recordings and what do they do in this passage?  Everyone seems to play it like glissandi which I don't see how that can be done with just lh alone since the constant movement back up and down would slow things down a little.  I don't even know why they do this interpretively because there are no indications.  In the past I played this at a moderate speed con moto so its not stagnant buts not blisteringly fast.