Old Bechstein Pianos

[iumonito]

I would love to hear your opinion about the merits and perils of rebuilding Bechstein pianos.  I personaly love the ones I have seen (I am partial to Bechstein, having received my formative training on a very good full grand as a teenager in Venezuela), but I am curious about how well they do over time.

Naturally, the first item in the agenda should be whether a cracked plate is worth fixing, how, and what happens then.  It is well known that old Bechsteins plates are prone to crack.  If left alone, does the crack impair the tunning stability of the instrument?  Does it make the plate (and rim) not be still as it is supposed to so that the instrument can project its sound?  Once repaired, are these worries put to rest for 20 years?

What about the old Schwander action? What are the pros and cons of replacing it with a modern Renner action?  Deltoa?  Others?

[CJ Quinn]

Seek out a guy who posts on pianodealerworld.com  err, I mean pianoworld.com called yonnermark.  He's in England and specializes in old Bechsteins, and is a very decent guy.

[Brian Lawson, RPT]

When I first started working in London, I did several Bechsteins at the shop I worked at. I've also worked on several since then. Although I've heard  about their having plates which crack, I've never had that with all those I worked on.

You can also check here for a Bechstein user group,
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/bechstein/


Calin the moderator also posts here, you can check out ones being restored which he's bought.
https://calintantareanu.tripod.com/

[CJ Quinn]

Damn, I forgot about Calin even though I met the guy in person!  YEs, talk to Calin also.

[Axtremus]

Yeah... definitely ping Calin. That guy is neither a tech nor a rebuilder, but he seems to have had quite a number of very old Bechsteins restored... he's more like a collector.

And that other guy with a piano hot-rodding shop in Gaithersburg, MD ... just might be a good resource to talk to... especially about that cracked plate.

Good luck.

[hrschlosser]

iomonito,

I know one Bechtein grand (a model C) with a cracked plate which is indeed more unstable concerning the tuning. Also the crack in the plate has opend up a bit after the piano was moved. Other than that this Bechstein sounds as fine as it could sound. Personally I'd take any Bechstein with a cracked plate as long as it is really cheaply available because a crack in the plate definately effects resale-value should you ever have to sell such a piano. Also it limits a bit the options in the future, because it probably isn't worth to rebuild such a piano, although there are some people who suggest to weld a cracked plate.

As to why the plate in older Bechsteins cracked sometimes I've heard differing opinions. Some techs say it was because the plate foundry used the wrong formula for the cast iron, others say those plates are all prone to crack because they are not constructed strong enough.  I have no idea which version is the truth, maybe both effects came together.

Other than the plate issue old Bechsteins are as good a rebuild candidate as any other high-quality piano. They can be outstanding, if the work is done properly. Personally I like the silvery sound of some older Bechsteins and the light actions they tend to have.

Best regards,
Jens

[keith d kerman]

The pre WW1 C. Bechsteins are among the very best pianos ever made.  David Stanwood told me emphatically that these are his absolute favorite pianos ever.
IMO, the new C. Bechsteins have been redesigned away from the sound that established them as one of the great pianos.  They have decided to take the same tactic that many makers try ( and fail at ) and incorporate many of Steinways design features into their pianos, and take on Steinway head on.  This is a huge shame, as the world of pianos becomes more and more homogenized, and to lose the distinct C Bechstein sound is a real loss.   August Forster, Bosendorfer, and Bluthner are the only old European companies that have maintained their sound from the past.

The old C Bechsteins are proof that the belly design is everything, and soundboard size is meaningless.  These pianos have very little soundboard area that is active, yet they can have a quantity of sound that will blow your head off.

As to the plates, we have rebuilt many pre WWI C Bechsteins over the past 30 years, and only a couple had cracked plates.  These were pianos that belonged to customers, and they were rebuilt with a clear explanation.  The plates were repaired and reinforced, and are holding up wonderfully, and I have no concern about thier longevity.  No warranty was given for the plate on these pianos, but if we were to see them now, and make the same repair, we would have no problem offering a full 10 year warranty for the plate.  FWIW, we have seen more cracked plates from more recent pianos of a certain famous American piano maker, not Mason & Hamlin.  These have been of the type we would not repair under any circumstances.

By the way, this is not an endorsement of buying pianos with cracked plates.  Most of the time this means the piano should have a new plate, and this is so impractical that it makes the piano essentially worthless.   

As to the actions, when we rebuild old C Bechsteins, we completely modernize the actions, and save very little from the original actions.  The older actions can be made to work well enough, as can Bluthner patent actions, but our approach is that our rebuilds should dramatically out perform their new equivalents, or what is the point.

Iumonito, we have a C Bechstein B (6'9") from about 1910 totally rebuilt and for sale, and you are welcome to come and try it, and see what you think.  We think it gives our new Steingraeber 205s a run for their money, as well as our rebuilt Steinways, which is the highest praise I can give a piano. 

Rebuilding pre WWI German pianos ( and Austrian ) is much more difficult than American pianos from this same period, especially when you get into modernizing actions.   So if anyone is considering a rebuilt C Bechstein, or other German or Austrian make from this period, you need to be much more careful than when considering an American rebuild ( which you still have to be super careful with since most rebuild work is very bad )

[CJ Quinn]

Thanks for that post Keith, very informative. 

Jens:  are you following me? 

GOod to see you here as well.

[calin]

Hi everybody!

Some old Bechsteins have cracked plates, but certainly not the majority. Many other piano brands have sometimes cracked plates.
I think a cracked Bechstein plate can be repaired, through welding or other methods. it should be worth fixing, because a well rebuilt Bechstein fetches usually a good price.
But rebuilding an old Bechstein is a tricky business, because you really need a good and experienced rebuilder, that knows, for instance, what kind of hammers to use. Modern garden-variety (standard, hard) hammers won't make an old Bechstein sound the way it was supposed to.
So be careful when youy choose your rebuilder. Or, better yet, buy an already rebuilt piano that you really like - that way you know what you get.

Calin

[iumonito]

Good, good, we are getting some traction here. 

Keith, thank you for the invitation.  I have been looking for an excuse to do the trip to Gaithersburg in spite of not being in shopping mode.  I hate to take your time like that, but it would be rude to turn down your gratious offer, so I will give you a call to make an appointment.  The B sounds very exciting, and I have to finally make an acquaintance with Maestoso (Great Gate of Kiev, obviously, our first course).  You had, I think, an older Bechstein B which was not finished yet last time I was there, although I think that one the owner had requested specifically to keep the original action because the instrument was desired as a histrical instrument rather than the best piano you can make of it (naturally a laudable aesthetic choice; vive la diversite'.)

Calin, I visited your website and your collection looks lovely, even though I am surprised you have chosen the mezza cola models rather than the 3/4 (around 227 cm), which I am very partial for.  Any mysterious and interesting reason behind this choice?  I particularly liked what you did with the re-veneered B.  You should post recordings to go with the pictures.     Whats your preferred hammer?

CJ, I bet your Mark is Mark Goodwin of www.smartpianos.com.  I have exchanged e-mail with mark and I agree with your assesment.  I would love to see somebody in America do with Chickering, Knabe, Stieff, Baldwin and Mason what mark does in England with Bechstein.

[calin]

Iumonito,

First of all, my Bechstein is not a model B but a model V. I chose it because it was in very good mechanical condition, and because it sounded really well. I didn't find a larger one, at the time, in better condition.
I'm sorry I can't recommend what hammers to use. Some piano technicians say that the hammers made using Wurzen felt are supposedly the closest you can get to the old ones, but I haven't tried them myself.
I did not change the hammers in my Bechsteins, because they were in good condition, with little wear.
I can't post any recordings because I don't have any decent recording equipment. I did some recordings but the resulting sound is pretty bad and doesn't have much in common with the real instrument.

Calin

[CJ Quinn]

NOte that Chickering Rick put Wurzenfelt hammers on his piano and in usual form for him, he probably knows everything there is to know about Wurzenfelt.

Yes, that's the Mark I meant.  He has some experience "mailing" pianos to the USA too, BTW.

[iumonito]

Wow, Calin, you have a true historical instrument there!  Nice.  Pardon my shallowness when I fail to make the conversion to the older model.  Which in turn is a great opportunity to talk about the differences in design between the Model V and the more modern B (which now I understand describes two different pianos depending on whether we ware talking pre-WWI or recent ones).

Obviously the shape of the tail is different.  Do you know anything about the speaking lengths and relative tensions of the strings.  I think I saw you restring with modern copper-wound drones, I assume because brass-wound was unavailable or prohibitely expensive (am I off?  the old drones were not copper-wound, right?)

Now I wish you luck that you find an spectacular Model III to add to your collection!

[calin]

Iumonito,

I used copper wound bass strings because the strings were rescaled too (by the maker - heller Bass). I don't see a point in using brass/bronze wound ones. Besides being more difficult to get nowadays, I doubt the results would be better.

IThe old models I-V are quite different from the newer ones, models A, B, C.... they switched shortly after 1900 to the A, B, C model line.

Did you join the Bechstein Yahoogroup?
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/bechstein/
There is a history of Bechstein posted there in the files area.

Calin

[ananda2]

I would like to share my own experience as an owner of a modern C. Bechstein concert grand D 280. If a deep needling technique was applied to your hammers as one of the latest stages of a fine voicing process, despite having incorporated many design features coming from Steinway & Sons, the results you may expect are far away from a standard concert grand. So I would say that a modern C. Bechstein when it is accurately voiced can match any of the old Bechsteins.

[hbofinger]

A note on the new ones: as I was shopping a year ago, I ended up playing virtually at every dealership in the Washington, D.C. area. By far the greatest instrument I played on, hands down, was a new C. Bechstein B at the White Flint Mall dealership. It outshone all Steinies and everything else I have played in the U.S. I could not wing it (ended up with a great Yamaha C7 that was rebuilt in Japan, grey market at another dealer).

It was severely marked down, too, due to the economy. I could not wing it, but it was an eye opener. Fortunately they had not voiced it down yet for the American market (I can't actually BELIEVE they do that when they come on here...)

[pbryld]

  As to the actions, when we rebuild old C Bechsteins, we completely modernize the actions, and save very little from the original actions.  The older actions can be made to work well enough, as can Bluthner patent actions, but our approach is that our rebuilds should dramatically out perform their new equivalents, or what is the point.

I have a 1879 Bechstein (ca. 200cm long). I love its sound (even though it's not a full grand), but the action is quite heavy for me.
How much should one expect to pay for new actions?

[crownrib]

I have a 1879 Bechstein. I love its sound, but the action is quite heavy for me.
How much should one expect to pay for new actions?

I'm in the same shape with a 1899 Bechstein V.  Someone rebuilt it "about a decade ago" with new hammers, strings, finish, dampers.  It's a beautiful, if worn, piano that has the original soundboard in excellent shape and sound.  And the action is horribly heavy.

Doing research, it is common for rebuilders to cheap-out on old Bechsteins and merely use newer, cheaper hammer which are too heavy for the old action.  The old hammers were very light, sometimes 2/3rd the weight of the new-cheapies, and those 3 or 4 grams of weight can be more than enough to make the action heavy handed and sluggish.

Tomorrow I have a tuner-tech coming out to assess the piano and its action, and I lay money on those hammers of mine being cheap and heavy replacements.  This grand old grand has all ability to sing and play well but has a hellish reaction to fingers.

If you merely need hammers replaced, it might be $1500.  Or less or more; price depends on what you buy for replacement hammers and what else you need done.  If you want/need all sorts of other parts in the action replaced or refurbished, the price can go up and up to maybe $7000+.  That high of a price should get you something amazing like WNG parts and custom Abel hammers and all felt redone, etc. The action should be essentially brand new if you spend so much, but you should also be aware that the old Bechsteins are touchy and best left to experienced pros that understand the piano and how is should be in context of its manufacture.

[john90]

As to the plates, we have rebuilt many pre WWI C Bechsteins over the past 30 years, and only a couple had cracked plates.  These were pianos that belonged to customers, and they were rebuilt with a clear explanation.  The plates were repaired and reinforced, and are holding up wonderfully, and I have no concern about thier longevity.  

Did both plates crack in the same place? Do you remember if they the same model? Were there the plates welded or stitched?

It is great that the repairs are lasting.

[Edit: Just found this PTG article about plate repairs. https://www.ptg.org/userfiles/file/ptj/plate_issue.pdf It quotes a quote: "It is rare to find an old Bechstein grand without a crack in the plate.", p27, Nov 2000 issue. I think this refers to small hairline cracks, rather than breaks. It also discusses a method used over a 40 year period to weld broken plates, in the piano, in peoples front rooms!]

[steinberg09]

I have been looking to buy an old Bechstein C grand piano from about 1890 on wards. I notice that the prices in the UK are fairly low - also for Steinway. Is there any reason for this? Is it because the market in the UK is down and no one much buys them or has it got more to do with crafty dealers restoring with inferior parts? I live in Berlin and although they came from here it is pretty hard to find a good one that isn't badly damaged or badly restored. Any ideas?

[seb1982]

I'm by no means an expert in Bechsteins, but I've literally just been piano shopping in the last few months, part exchanging a 1969 Bechstein Model L for a Steinway O in the UK.  I'd say the UK is excellent for Bechstein bargains right now.  Steinways, not so much in my experience.  I didn't find any Steinways in a playable condition at any retailers for less than £18,000 GBP, regardless of their age. 

But, believe it or not, I had a very hard time getting anything approaching a decent price for my Bechstein, which was in pretty damn top condition, if I do say so myself!  I had offers of £4,500! 

It seems that unless it has "Steinway" on the front, or is brand new, the UK market isn't interested.  Which is a crying shame in my opinion - although it does mean there's some fabulous pianos to be had!

[steinberg09]

Sorry about your experience. Bechstein L seems to be more popular here than C. I suppose it simply has to do with space and transport costs etc. But I have also heard a few horror stories about cheap chemicals being used to restore old instruments and inferior parts from China. So I am not sure about the methods if the piano builders and dealers in UK.
  In Britain many of the sellers first and foremost write about the charms the piano as a piece of furniture, the polyester finish adding to your living room flair and go on the write at length about the appearance not even mentioning if the original ivory keys are still intact or not. Puzzling and somewhat sad. Hope I can find one that has not been destroyed by renovation.