New M&H CC -- Question on Action Feel (Keith, you reading?)

[Axtremus]

Played two new M&H CC concert grands side-by-side recently on the top floor of the M&H factory.

One was voiced bright.
The other was voiced mellow.

Just by playing them, I thought the mellower piano had a much lighter touch than the bright piano.

Funny thing is, the M&H guy (Cecil Ramirez) told me those two pianos were regulated to have the same touch weights.

Usually, given two pianos of the same model and given the same touch weight specifications, one would more likely mistake the brighter piano to have a much lighter touch. But not only did I thought the mellower piano had a lighter touch, three other fairly experienced/competent pianists (2 jazz, 1 classical) thought the same.

Hence this question: What could make the mellower piano felt significantly heavier than the brighter piano if indeed the M&H guy (Cecil R.) is correct that both pianos were regulated to have the same touch weights? (What if I make it more specific -- that both were regulated to the same DOWN weights but leave other parameters for speculation?)

M&H said they exhibited both pianos at NAMM, so I figure I'd post my question here and hope that some one else here who might have played/examined these pianos (perhaps at NAMM) would chime in, just in case M&H uses somewhat different actions in both pianos, seeing they are both prototypes. ( Keith D. Kerman, are you reading? Hint, hint! )

[iumonito]

Fascinating.  Did I get correctly that the mellow felt heavier and the bright lighter?  I was a little confused.

The faster the sound develops, the lighter the piano will feel, because you hear sound closer in time to the motion you cause to create the sound.  Masons are famous for sounding lighter than other pianos when in fact the touchweight is heavier.  Wonderful pianos.

If the fenomenon is the other way around, I am full of c.... and have no idea what I am talking about.   

[tenn]

The same fenomenamin applies to pints of beer.
Guinness for example feels heavier than other beers even if it has a lower specific gravity.... or is it the other way round?

[hrschlosser]

iumonito, the way I understand it, it was meant the other way `round: the mellow piano had the lighter touch.

If the pianos both had the same touchweight the only explanation that would come to my mind is that the leverage of the actions was not the same (that means both actions were set up a little different) thus resulting in some "built in" touchweight differences. Those differences may have been adressed by correctly weighting the keys, but keep in mind that two actions can perform very different although they have the same touchweight because touchweight is a static measurement and says little about how an action performs dynamically. Also, touchweight is measured with the dampers lifted. So if in the bright piano the dampers got engaged a little earlier this would add to the touchweight as well.  Just some ideas.

Best regards,
Jens

[iumonito]

Well, the part that throws me off is "What could make the mellower piano felt significantly heavier than the brighter piano if indeed the M&H guy (Cecil R.) is correct that both pianos were regulated to have the same touch weights?"

Up to that point I thought along the same lines you do (that the mellow felt lighter). SO Ax, back to the begining: which one was lighter?

[pianodoc]

I'll go out on a limb here and guess that it has to do with inerta.  If, for example, the brighter piano had heavier hammers, to even out the touchweight, a common thing to do is add some lead to the keys.  So, it takes the same amount of pressure to push a key slooooooowly down.  Yet what happens when you try and play quickly?  That's right, there is inertial resistance. (objects at rest want to stay at rest, objects in motion want to stay in motion...)  Your fingers are having to move a weightier system around.

Without looking a little deeper, it's just a guess.

[jolly]

Funny to see Rick and Ax in the same thread. If Keith shows up, it's gonna be like "old home week"....

[CJ Quinn]

Hey Jolly!  Where is Keith anyway, he usually stops by here every fews days at least.

[rich_galassini]

Ax et al,

I was at Mason a couple days after you were and I played the same pianos that you did. (I was a presenter at a dealer training weekend)

The only possible difference is that I was also in attendance at the first concert for the employees at Mason & Hamlin in almost 75 years, presented by pianist Eric Himy. They could have gone through extra prep for the concert. Although I wasn't playing the pianos critically, i did not notice a pronounced difference in the action. The TONE was still quite different, though. The satin was a little shyer, with a little more reserved personality. The polish had a "Hey look at me" kind of temperament. I had to really think about controlling it when I played.

It may be that I was just concentrating on these differences and didn't notice the action.....  but I didn't notice a marked difference in the actions.

BTW, it was very cool to be a part of this historic concert. Between pieces the workers chattered among themselves, some took pictures, some gave "thumbs up", but everyone was pretty excited.

Get this! Kevin Burke, a tech. at the M&H factory, told me that I am part of the reason he pursued his position there. He stopped into Cunningham about a decade ago and we chatted and I let him play a mason BB. He loved the piano and later when his lady friend relocated to the Boston area he only went to one place for work - Mason. He recognized me when we bumped into each other at the factory. Neat story, huh?

[keith d kerman]

Ax,

A reason that the same model pianos with identical sources for components weighed off to identical specs feel quite different is that when factories weigh off actions, they do not equalize all points of friction.  So, at a later point, when the pianos are prepared, including eliminateing all bad friction, the actions can feel quite different.

[Axtremus]

Thanks for your responses, every one.

If pianodoc's "inertia" hypothesis is correct, then the amount of mass in the actions of the two pianos would be rather different.

Also thought of damper action regulation differences that might account for the descrepencies... but I played pieces with extensive use of the sustain pedal, so that hypothesis is not promising.

Keith's response makes a lot of sense -- the guy in the factory put lead into keys without first working off all the frictions, and he did so to both pianos to the same spec., but one piano's action may have more friction than the other at the time of lead insertion. So after the piano rolled off the proverbial assembly line and got prepared by other techs who subsequently work off the excess friction, the piano with more friction at the time of lead insertion would end up having a much lighter action. And of course the factory rep. was telling the truth that both pianos were weighed to the same touch weight -- yes, at the time of lead insertion. That makes perfect sense.

And, yes, Rich, the tones of the two pianos were substantially different from one another when I playe them.

Thanks.