Bach - WTK on the modern piano

[robert]

This seems to have been discussed before (suprise!) and I would have loved if the the links in this topic did work. However, the platform for the forum seems to have been changed since the post:
https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3430.0.html
I cannot find the real links either.

What I would like to discuss is the approach with the modern piano for Bach's WTK:s and all its possibilities.

I am slowly changing view from being rather conservative in use of dynamics, pedalling (=no pedal at all) and tempo towards actually make use of the modern piano and its possibilities.

For this matter, I have a couple of concerns that I would like to discuss.

- Ends and ritardando. When playing on a harpichord, you cannot make use of dynamics and I think this the reason why approximately all ends on Bach's are pieces are marked ritardando. I have begun to try an approach where I just mark the end with a touch of ritardando rather than a full ritardando approach. I think this suites the modern piano better, both for preludes and fugues.

- Pedalling. I have always believed that the "no pedal approach" is the right thing when playing Bach but I am beginning to change here as well. Couldn't a delicate use of pedal actually improve Bach's WTK:s preludes? I don't think it is suitable for the fugues where the separate melody lines must be clear and steady but in some preludes it would not hurt (I am talking about the sustain pedal only). One example is the first prelude in C major (which I think everyone knows about) which pedalled in a delicate manner can sound better, while in second prelude in C-minor, the sustain pedal has no function as it will blurr the content. In third prelude, the use of the sustain pedal can again improve the overall performance.

- Dynamics. While I don't think one should in any way overdo the use of dynamics, a proper understanding on where to help build tension by adding dynamics can improve the message of the prelude. I also think it is suitable for the fugues.
Before making decisions how to treat the piece dynamically, I suggest a deep analyze to really understand how the piece is shaped in to sections, keys and melodic patterns.

- Tempo. This is a disputable area and even researches seem to argue whether "tempo marks" in Bach's music suggest a speed or character of the piece. Tempo and character are of course related but it still makes a big difference which is easy to track if you have listened to different performers of Bach's WTK. One good example is the difference in recordings with Fischer and Gould for the 2:nd prelude of WTK I. Also, one could perhaps use different tempos on harpichord and piano for the reason it sounds so differently?
This is a rather interesting paper about Bach and tempo:
https://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Arts/music/performance/bach/bachnotation.htm

Comments and suggestions?

[LVB op.57]

The way I look at it is that we're pianists. We know how to use the piano. We're adapting Bach's music to our instrument, and we should do what we can with it. I use light pedaling on both the C major and C minor preludes, but I agree that it's probably not a good idea when it comes to fugues. If dynamics are used the right way, they can also be appealing. Tempo, I'm not so sure about. Even in classical era music, tempo is solid. Not until the romantic era did people start expirmenting a lot with tempo. So no, I would not use any kind of a rubato in Bach's music.

[nanabush]

How come some of the preludes/fugues have no key signature, common to the easier ones...

[robert]

The way I look at it is that we're pianists. We know how to use the piano. We're adapting Bach's music to our instrument, and we should do what we can with it. I use light pedaling on both the C major and C minor preludes, but I agree that it's probably not a good idea when it comes to fugues. If dynamics are used the right way, they can also be appealing. Tempo, I'm not so sure about. Even in classical era music, tempo is solid. Not until the romantic era did people start expirmenting a lot with tempo. So no, I would not use any kind of a rubato in Bach's music.

Oh, I did not in any way mean that tempo rubato should be applied! Huh! Rather that tempo marks as Adagio, Andante, Allegro possible did tell more about the character while marks like Presto and Lento deal with speed.
Tempo markings had been used since the early Baroque period, particularly with instrumental music. Not all instrumental music at that time had a tempo mark. Also, Bach often left out tempo marks in his keyboard music which was left to the discretion of the performer. The time of a piece was often determined by its purpose. Danse music was played at a certain tempo, depending on its style, so as to be danseable. Likewise, choral music had a certain tempo reflecting the mood of the text. Tempo markings became necessary to the point that Ludwig Van Beethoven (1770-1827) provided metronome markings instead of descriptive words.

Bernard D. Sherman did a pretty long research in the area which is interesting to read. Please do.
https://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/bachtempo.htm

[Bulgarian]

I would like to add another dimension to the discussion. I am convinced that Bach wrote his music in rather abstract purely spiritial way, without much care and respect for the timbre and capabilities of ANY instrument. I totally agree with the opinion of Ralph Kirkpatrick in his inspiring book about the WTP that THERE ISN'T any instrument (old or new)which can play the entire cycle perfectly. We can be inspired by certain qualities of different period instruments or to use the capability of the piano, yet there is always something missing.

[jlh]

- Ends and ritardando. When playing on a harpichord, you cannot make use of dynamics and I think this the reason why approximately all ends on Bach's are pieces are marked ritardando. I have begun to try an approach where I just mark the end with a touch of ritardando rather than a full ritardando approach. I think this suites the modern piano better, both for preludes and fugues.

There aren't too many endings that BACH marked ritardando -- I can't think of any offhand, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.  Perhaps you have an edited score?  I agree that the rits should be at the very end and not prepared a measure or so in advance.

- Pedalling. I have always believed that the "no pedal approach" is the right thing when playing Bach but I am beginning to change here as well. Couldn't a delicate use of pedal actually improve Bach's WTK:s preludes? I don't think it is suitable for the fugues where the separate melody lines must be clear and steady but in some preludes it would not hurt (I am talking about the sustain pedal only). One example is the first prelude in C major (which I think everyone knows about) which pedalled in a delicate manner can sound better, while in second prelude in C-minor, the sustain pedal has no function as it will blurr the content. In third prelude, the use of the sustain pedal can again improve the overall performance.

I don't think there's anything wrong with using the pedal in delicate moderation.  Bach was a very competent musician and expected his works to be played to the best of the musician's and instrument's capabilities.  This does not include using the pedal to cheat with legato lines or sustained tones, however, nor does it mean overusing the pedal so that it obscures the harmony.  The pedal can be used to enhance the tone of the piano if used PROPERLY.  I'm sure if pianos were around in Bach's time, he would have used them at least in moderation.  By the same token, playing Bach sans pedal is perfectly fine as well.

- Dynamics. While I don't think one should in any way overdo the use of dynamics, a proper understanding on where to help build tension by adding dynamics can improve the message of the prelude. I also think it is suitable for the fugues.
Before making decisions how to treat the piece dynamically, I suggest a deep analyze to really understand how the piece is shaped in to sections, keys and melodic patterns.

I'm not sure what qualifies as overdone by your standards, but listen to anything Bach wrote for instruments that could control dynamics well (strings, voice, etc.) and you will find a good range of dynamics.  I'm sure when performing keyboard works, Bach made good use of the stops and (on an organ) the dynamic pedal to achieve the desired effects.  A good understanding, like you said, of the works will help guide you to where dynamics can best be used in the prelude.  Obviously, the fugues require some special attention in distinguishing between the subjects and episodes, and on a piano this can be effectively done.

[whynot]

Hope this isn't too long, but I find all of this so interesting.  There's an important use for pedal unrelated to sustaining notes, and that is to "open up" the sound of the instrument.  When the dampers are down, the only strings that vibrate are from the notes actually being played.  When the dampers are lifted, additional strings will sympathetically respond and add color and life to the sound.  So even in quick passages, there is reason to use pedal if you want this sound.   If you don't want the sustain effect, it just has to be lifted with every note (impractical at breakneck speed, but really can be done quite fast).

Dynamics at this time weren't so much specified as implied by orchestration, and tended to be in layers/tiers.  For subtle changes, a few instruments would be added/subtracted; for dramatic changes, sections were performed alternately by tutti players/singers and a small concertato group.  The harpsichord worked similarly, in that adding a set or two of strings made a small or moderate difference, or you could couple down from an upper manual for dramatic result, or when there was a buff stop, you could instantly make it sound like a soft lute, also a huge change.  These kinds of changes were immediate and obvious shifts, unlike the gradual swells and decays of romantic music.  However, it was in Bach's time that the swell box for organ was invented, allowing for gradual change in volume.  So even though not all musicians had that option on every instrument, that's where music was headed in general, which maybe gives us a little room to experiment with more nuanced dynamics in late Baroque music.

Hmm, think I'll go play some Bach now.

[robert]

I would like to add another dimension to the discussion. I am convinced that Bach wrote his music in rather abstract purely spiritial way, without much care and respect for the timbre and capabilities of ANY instrument. I totally agree with the opinion of Ralph Kirkpatrick in his inspiring book about the WTP that THERE ISN'T any instrument (old or new)which can play the entire cycle perfectly. We can be inspired by certain qualities of different period instruments or to use the capability of the piano, yet there is always something missing.

I have not thought much in this dimension but it makes sense. I also know that many of the preludes was composed for his eldest son Wilhelm Friedemann as exercises in music and technique. There are sketches of exercises found, particularly designed for Wilhelm, which appear in a more or less reworked state in his WTK books. Bach was also a very good mathematician and investigated the contra punctual style to its limits.
But, despite these obvious signs of his calculated composition style, his music is very spiritual and touches our musical soul deeply. So when listening to Bach's music and in this case his keyboard works, do you hear the sound of the instrument played or are the melodies dominating? It is very much the later and I agree that the instrument for Bach must have been subordinated to the music itself. If you compare Bach's music with for instance romantic composers, you will understand the difference as the piano sound itself makes the music in for example many of Liszt's works. For Bach, the music is the dominating factor. Therefore, I think it is very important to not exaggerate anything in Bach's music just because you have the capabilities in the instrument as it will ruin the music itself!

And as a summry to these thoughts of mine, I agree to your dimension of the discussion Bulgarian. There is something missing but I don't think we should try to use instruments to fill it in. The missing parts makes the beauty and fill your mind with a melancolique feeling. And this is the feeling that I love about Bach. Those pianists who are able to create this feeling of longing and a mixed feeling of happiness and sadness are the ones interpretations I love the most. And on the top is Gould.

[robert]

There aren't too many endings that BACH marked ritardando -- I can't think of any offhand, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.  Perhaps you have an edited score?  I agree that the rits should be at the very end and not prepared a measure or so in advance.

I don't have an UrText version so please forgive me is this is all wrong.
In my book of WTK I, prelude no.1 is marked calando and the fugue is marked a poco rallentando. Prelude no.2 is marked Ritardando and the fugue dim. e rallentando. No.3 prelude & fugue are not marked with anything indicating it should be slower while p & f no.4 are both marked diminuendo e rallentando etc.
Not specifically Ritardando but many of the preludes and fugues are marked to end slower. My original point was that Bach did not have any dynamics as p, mp, mf, f etc. to work with as the instrument always sounded with max volume (you can change the volume with the organ but not finger individually). One way to compensate was to give the prelude/fugue a bit "taste" by adding a change in tempo in the end or mark a chord or two. My suggestion is that with the modern piano, this is not necessary as you have the wide range of dynamics to work with which can give the work wanted "taste".

[robert]

Hope this isn't too long, but I find all of this so interesting.  There's an important use for pedal unrelated to sustaining notes, and that is to "open up" the sound of the instrument.  When the dampers are down, the only strings that vibrate are from the notes actually being played.  When the dampers are lifted, additional strings will sympathetically respond and add color and life to the sound.  So even in quick passages, there is reason to use pedal if you want this sound.   If you don't want the sustain effect, it just has to be lifted with every note (impractical at breakneck speed, but really can be done quite fast).

Dynamics at this time weren't so much specified as implied by orchestration, and tended to be in layers/tiers.  For subtle changes, a few instruments would be added/subtracted; for dramatic changes, sections were performed alternately by tutti players/singers and a small concertato group.  The harpsichord worked similarly, in that adding a set or two of strings made a small or moderate difference, or you could couple down from an upper manual for dramatic result, or when there was a buff stop, you could instantly make it sound like a soft lute, also a huge change.  These kinds of changes were immediate and obvious shifts, unlike the gradual swells and decays of romantic music.  However, it was in Bach's time that the swell box for organ was invented, allowing for gradual change in volume.  So even though not all musicians had that option on every instrument, that's where music was headed in general, which maybe gives us a little room to experiment with more nuanced dynamics in late Baroque music.

Hmm, think I'll go play some Bach now.

You have two good points. First for the subtle change in sound when dampers are lifted which gives more air and the second for the general thought of late baroque music.
All your posts gives alot inspiration for my Bach playing and I am thankful that I live in a time where Internet and forums exists ;-).

[odsum25]

Well, my personal interpretations on Bach sometimes get slammed by traditionalists, but I try to make use of the capabilities of the piano without going totally overboard.  I guess what I mostly try to do is imagine the sonic world that Bach could think in and try to imitate it.  I use rather extreme dynamics, (sometimes more than I really should,) but avoid pedal at all costs.  I also try to take somewhat slow tempos, especially in fugues, to give the voices room to breathe- To expand and contract, continually in motion.  I also like to see general dynamic contours in pieces and try to exploit them to the best of my abilities. 

[nyquist]

- Ends and ritardando. When playing on a harpichord, you cannot make use of dynamics and I think this the reason why approximately all ends on Bach's are pieces are marked ritardando. I have begun to try an approach where I just mark the end with a touch of ritardando rather than a full ritardando approach. I think this suites the modern piano better, both for preludes and fugues.

The harpsichord is not the only historic instrument to use as a guide.  Don't forget that this music was certainly played by Bach on the clavichord, which is perfectly capable of finger-controlled dynamics--not to mention vibrato (die Bebung).

N.

[lostinidlewonder]

- Pedalling.
... while in second prelude in C-minor, the sustain pedal has no function as it will blurr the content.

It can be used at the very end.

In third prelude, the use of the sustain pedal can again improve the overall performance.

I would think no pedal at all throughout the beginning section because of the 2 part nature of it.

Pedalling overall is dangerous to use when playing Bach because you can easily make what shouldn't be legato, legato, or sustain what shouldn't be. Stacatto, slured notes, accented notes, touch of the ornaments, voices of fugues,  these things and more can be all mutated if you overuse the pedal and don't let the sound come totally from the hand.

- Dynamics. .... understanding on where to help build tension by adding dynamics can improve the message of the prelude. I also think it is suitable for the fugues.
Before making decisions how to treat the piece dynamically, I suggest a deep analyze to really understand how the piece is shaped in to sections, keys and melodic patterns.

Generally when playing Bach, as notes go up the keyboard you get louder, and as they trail down you get softer.

- Tempo. This is a disputable area and even researches seem to argue whether "tempo marks" in Bach's music suggest a speed or character of the piece.

Tempo in Bach only ever should be thought of as Character, not stringent speed as we do with other music. In the 2nd prelude you see 3 tempo changes so we have to of course demonstrate the 3 differences in our playing.

[Barbosa-piano]

 I do not use the pedal for practice reasons, I try to play precisely all the legato marks, just as a respect to the composer (I don't know why I do this, I just have inmense respect for the composers). I feel bad using the pedal, although some times, because there are no acoustics in the room, I play with pedal in some pieces, as a warm up or fun. I believe that I capture the spirit of the preludes not playing with pedal, but at some cases as said above it can enhance the performance, if used properly. I distrust today's marks of "loudness", maybe the composer would have marked it otherwise. I try to play it as creatively as possible, since the piano has its nuances. I admit that I like the creative style of Glenn Gould, and the way he made the hammers bounce several times, which I think is unique. From him, my favorite performance is Bach's D minor Concerto (film). I try to implement that style while playing Bach's Preludes and Fuges. The approach in the most simple way, should be enforced. The piano is not a Harpsichord, therefore, I believe we should use our imaginations the best we can.
  The Well Tempered Clavier, is for sure a true collection of golden pieces.

         Enjoy playing!

[apion]

There's an important use for pedal unrelated to sustaining notes, and that is to "open up" the sound of the instrument.  When the dampers are down, the only strings that vibrate are from the notes actually being played.  When the dampers are lifted, additional strings will sympathetically respond and add color and life to the sound.  So even in quick passages, there is reason to use pedal if you want this sound.   If you don't want the sustain effect, it just has to be lifted with every note (impractical at breakneck speed, but really can be done quite fast).

Interesting observation ........ with which I quite agree.