Classical Left Hand Accompaniment of Haydn/Mozart

[dk]

good evening,
I recently started to play Haydn's Sonata in D major Hob. XVI:37. However, after having played a few other classical sonatas in the last years, the common left hand of the pieces of the classical epoque keeps annoying me more and more: https://nitrogen.cycovery.com/haydn_lefthand.gif

Does anyone have some hints to play these at speed? I use to play rapid passages out of arm movement (I finished Fant. Imp. at speed years ago and currently play Chopin 25/1 simultaneously to exercise that further), but I don't get the idea how to apply that technique in this very classical accompaniment. The first difficulty is to play the A less loud than the F# and the D, the second one is exhaustion after a few measures, the third one is irregularity. Finally, reaching measure 6 of the cutout, it seems nearly impossible to play it correctly, even with the fingering 3142...

I tried the search function but as I don't now an identifier for this kind of LH accompaniment, I've been stuck. Does it has a name, btw? It appears in nearly every Mozart Sonata and Concerto...

Thanks & Regards
Dominik Käser

[musik_man]

You need to use rotation of the forearm.  It's the same sort of motion that you'd use for octave tremolos.

[celticqt]

The first difficulty is to play the A less loud than the F# and the D, the second one is exhaustion after a few measures, the third one is irregularity. Finally, reaching measure 6 of the cutout, it seems nearly impossible to play it correctly, even with the fingering 3142...

I tried the search function but as I don't now an identifier for this kind of LH accompaniment, I've been stuck. Does it has a name, btw? It appears in nearly every Mozart Sonata and Concerto...

The accompaniment pattern is called Alberti bass, named after Domenico Alberti (1710-1740), who used a lot of it. 

I am also playing this sonata, so I understand your frustration with the LH.  I usually just think about bringing out the D -- at the tempo my teacher wants me to play it, I don't really worry about different dynamic levels for the other three notes in the figuration (perhaps this is lazy; I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong here).

The exhaustion is probably due to tension.  I cannot play this up to tempo if I have the least bit of tension in my hand or arm.  To combat this, I have specific bars in the music that are my "cues" to relax.

Irregularity - not quite sure what you mean by this, but whatever it is, it should disappear with practice (if you are practicing correctly, that is).

YES! I have that same struggle with m.6 of the example!  If I totally relax and don't think about what I'm doing, I can play it, but if I worry about it, I'm sunk . . .  If anyone has suggestions on that measure, I'd love to hear them also. 

[BoliverAllmon]

You need to use rotation of the forearm.  It's the same sort of motion that you'd use for octave tremolos.

correct and think about waving like the queen.

[dk]

You need to use rotation of the forearm.  It's the same sort of motion that you'd use for octave tremolos.

yes, I'm already doing (trying) that.. but what about up/down movement? do you use your finger power to press the F# or are you indeed waggling with your wrist?

@celticqt: thanks for your answer and the naming of the accompaniment... I meant with irregularity that the temporal space between the notes is not equal. sorry about my unclear language, I'm not native english...

[mound]

I'm working on this very sonata right now as well and found similar difficulty. As has been said, this is all about rotation of the wrist/forarm - don't try to play "with your fingers" as that will produce alot of tension.  Also think about this (and the opposite can apply in the RH where there are similar figures) - the thumb is naturally going to fall harder. Try playing the passage while trying to NOT PLAY the thumb notes.. Play it at speed with the wiggling/rotation of the wrist, but consciously try not to play the notes your thumb is to play.  You'll probably find that it's a bit hard to not hit those notes with your thumb.  See what I'm getting at? With little or no effort, you are probably still hitting the note - and it's probably much closer in dynamic to where it should be than when you are consciously trying to force your thumb down.  Effortless use of gravity here will help the A be subdued despite its being played by the thumb.

do you use your finger power to press the F# or are you indeed waggling with your wrist?

There should be very little up down movement, and indeed, do not try to use any "finger power" - it's ALL in the wrists/forearms.   Pick your LH up right now and place your finger tips on your desk next to your keyboard as if your fingers were on the keys, not pressing anything down. Now rock your entire foream back and forth so that your pinkie tip and tip of your thumb are every so slightly going "da da da da da da da " on the surface of your desk - speed it up keeping a consistent 16th note but not changing the shape of your fingers at all.  That is basically the movement you are looking for. Once its up to speed, it will be a very natural and fast fluttering rotation of the forearm only. You will of course have to ever-so-slightly change the position of your fingers as the passage changes, but the basic motion is all in the wrist/forearms.

It would be much easier to show than to explain in words

As far as irregularity in your rhythm,  this is where proper use of the metronome comes in.  Remember the "big beat" is most important, the 1 and 3, so do practice with the click on 1 and 3, but also check yourself with the click on the 16th and make sure you are rock-solid in your timing. As was said, the only way to really be able to do this at speed is to be completely relaxed and understand that the force required of you on the keys is alot less than you currently feel is necessary.

[dk]

Try playing the passage while trying to NOT PLAY the thumb notes..

just gonna try it tomorrow at the grand, it's too late now, everyone's sleeping..

Pick your LH up right now and place your finger tips on your desk next to your keyboard as if your fingers were on the keys, not pressing anything down. Now rock your entire foream back and forth so that your pinkie tip and tip of your thumb are every so slightly going "da da da da da da da " on the surface of your desk - speed it up keeping a consistent 16th note but not changing the shape of your fingers at all.

I quickly tried that on my table, then on the electrical piano... am I getting it right that the fingers are aligned very flat on the keys? I've always tried to put up my fingers, approximating a 90° angle and then huddling around with arms/wrist - teachers usually say that...
Gonna check it too at the grand tomorrow. As for measure 6, is this fore/back movement also suitable? It seems quite impractical to me as the fingers 3/2 are not very flexible between F#/G#, G#/A#, respectively.

As far as irregularity in your rhythm,  this is where proper use of the metronome comes in.  Remember the "big beat" is most important, the 1 and 3, so do practice with the click on 1 and 3, but also check yourself with the click on the 16th and make sure you are rock-solid in your timing.

At which speed do you keep your metronome then? To click every 16th?
I use to set it to click every 4th, and I successfully hit the "big beats", but the ones inbetween are regular.. maybe I should try exercising with your abovementioned method with rhythm variations.

Thank you very much!
Dominik Käser

btw: if you're playing this sonata anyway (I didn't know its so well known), may I ask you what fingering you use on the thirds trill in measure 35? My edition suggests 354, my teacher 343 but I stuck with both when trying to do it *not* out of finger force but with forearm movements. Is that technique still applicable here somehow?

[galonia]

To keep an alberti bass even, I tend to pulse quite strongly - in this case, I'd only think about playing every 4th or every 8th note, and just let the rocking of arm/forearm rotation - the stuff that has already been described - take care of the other notes.  You cannot play at speed if you need to think about every note, or try to play every note.  Sometimes you just have to relax and trust that you've learnt the notes well enough!  Well, that's what I find, anyway.

[asyncopated]

I probably should not be commenting.  I'm playing the alberti base in C major Hob. XVI:1 -- much, much simplier piece .  The score is marked allegro and the editor suggests a speed circa 132 to the crochet. 

At times, I think this is impossible, but I've made significant progress on getting up to speed and keeping it neat. 

Assuming that I want to play at 132 proper, I should be practicing at about 150, so here are a few things that seem to work.

1. Definately forarm rotation, nothing else will do.

2. Make sure your wrist is alighted to the keyboard, move your trunk if necessary.  I tried doing an Alberti bass (c chord say), at C3, C4 and C5 without moving my trunk and it get's increasingly difficult to play with my wrist misaligned.

3. Pulse the down beat.  This is to help you keep rhythm.  At that speed it is difficult to keep rhythm.  I find the irragularites creep in because I loose rhythm.  Although the simplest way is to use the down beat, e.g. beats 1 and 3 in common time , I sometimes try something more suitable to the passage.

4. Make sure you can hear the passage in your head at speed.  I find that a lot of the time I can't play it because my brain isn't used to the rhythm at that tempo in the first place.   So I get  brain used to hearing the passage at that tempo by listening to a recording or playing small passages fast.

5. Practice hands separate fast, hands together slow.

6. Practice short sections - one/two beats (crochets) at a extremely fast speed.  Stop immediately after and make sure there is no tention.  It is much easier to keep rhythm and use the correct technique in this way.  I think of it this way -- If you can play one beat, you can play two and if you can do two, three is easy as well... Keep increasing the number, beat by beat, paying attention to chord changes.

7. I find that when I do play up to speed with my fingers without tension., I feel as if I am touching the keys and not pressing them.

8. Practice on an easier sonata.  E.g. the one I'm playing!  I find that the simpler it is, the more difficult it is to get a good honest sound.   You don't have to worry about other technical issues.  Only about producing a good sound.  Somehow for easy pieces, everything sounds bare and any inaccuracies stick out like a sore thumb.  Also, making it interesting enough for a performance by having a good lyrical tone and good contrast at speed with neatness and accuracy is no easy task.   

Hope this helps.

al.

[sznitzeln]

If you play it a billion times, I promise you it will work out
I never tried to think about what motion to use. Actually I think playing with the fingers is not too bad. Atleast you want the rotation of the forarm to be so small that you barely know you are doing it

[asyncopated]

If you play it a billion times, I promise you it will work out
I never tried to think about what motion to use. Actually I think playing with the fingers is not too bad. Atleast you want the rotation of the forarm to be so small that you barely know you are doing it

Hmmm, tonight I will try playing with my toes. But, es you are right.  The rotation of the forarm is very small, but it is definately where the main action comes from.  This is as opposed to keeping your hand still and use only your fingers, e.g. place a coin on your hand and play at 150.

Have fun!

al.

[sznitzeln]

By the way... I would completely ignore the editors metronome marks...
My guess would be that 110-120 would be more appropriate, but thats a guess.
I dont think Haydns style is to rush that way with the music... Also practicing 150 isnt anything I recommend, perhaps you can do it once in a while, but you should practice slowly more that quickly.
My teacher said "You practice 9 times slowly and 1 time fast, and when you are practicing slowly you are thinking about the fast tempo and preparing for it"
I asked him if this applies to proffessionals and he said yes.
You'll notice that if you have played for a long time at 120 and mastered it, then you can play it much faster if you want.
Dont worry too much about speed, it comes, and its not the main issue.

Edit:
There is music that is more appropriate for pushing your speedlimits
Some Bach and Chopin pieces among others are good for this.
Some pieces you can practice faster than you perform just to improve technique.
Scarlatti is good too.

[asyncopated]

Hi Sznitzeln,

I agree with almost everything you have to say.  The editor must be crazy.  I have a couple of things to add. 

Usually the sensation that the piece is frantic is more due to an inability to control the sound properly, i.e. dynamics, grace and especially rhythm.  Many pieces can be played quickly without sounding frantic.  I don't know if one can play the Haydn cleanly at 132, and make it sound paced.  I haven't been able to do it yet.  Perhaps you are right the best speed is at around 120.  The suggestion for 150 comes about from the school of thought that if you are going to perform the piece at 132 as suggested, you should practice it both at a faster speed and at the speed that you are going to perform it at.   

I'm not sure about the playing slowly 9 times, and fast once bit.  I think that to learn you play fast, you actually have to do it.  But do learn to do this carefully.  I do agree and taking the speed down is extremely useful for making sure that everthing is correct and one should always try things at a much slower tempo to get the movement and technique right speed before reproducing it fast.

However, I think there may be value to playing quickly, concertraing on very short passages (one or two bars, or even notes) at a time once you are fairly sure of the motion.  Keep passages short so that you don't hurt your hands or start to develop bad habits unknowingly, and only piece the whole thing together later.   Although playing slowly is very very useful, the i think that only way to learn velocity is to actually do it.


al.

[sznitzeln]

Hi Asyncopated!

Actually I am not following the advice to play 9 times slowly myself
But I have noticed that if you only play fast, the accuracy never comes.
Its really important to lower the speed and focus on a shorter part, and in that way gain accuracy and control, and then ingrain that. After doing this speed usally comes much easier.

And I also agree that you cannot gain speed without playing fast.
I have read from several sources, and I agree, that when you have reached the high speed, you must lower it from time to time, otherwise the inaccuracy can come back.
When playing fast you keep ingraining your habits, and if you want to change the way you play you must lower speed. Doesnt have to be ultra-slow.

I believe in constant change of speed.
Sometimes I play first half tempo and play the passage a succession of times until I reach tempo, or above tempo.