Theory on Chopin Op.10 No.12

[edouard]

Hello all,

I'm posting my theory on the fingering  of the very first figure for the left hand in Chopin's well-known etude in C minor. This is more a technical theory than anything about the actual music; but one is important for the other.
It has its flaws, but I reckon that the 'traditional' fingering (let's take Cortot's for instance: 2124 3124 etc.) also has flaws (for instance: the hand position is rather uncomfortable). I've played this etude for two years now and was never quite happy with the sound I produced when the right hand joins the left hand in this initial descending run.

What I suggest:
Left hand: 1235 etc

Advantages of my fingering:
-why be obsessed with not playing your thumb on the black notes?
-it fits much more naturally with the right hand run (as in: RH 4321 mirrors LH 1235) and also it fits more logically into the subsequent passage leading into the key of C minor. (where it is unavoidable to play the first note of the four note groups with the thumb and what's more, on black notes)
-it avoids uncomfortable hand positions and the run can be achieved using minimal movement
-it avoids overarticulation and heaviness of touch: in fact it is impossible to play this fingering at any speed in those ways.

Drawbacks of my fingering:
-the score (my score anyway) indicates an accent which, on the 'traditional' fingering is played with the second finger, whereas with mine, should be played with the third finger. This is IMO the trickiest element and the accent should be rather light and achieve mostly with arm/shoulder movement (very slight)
-requires lightness of touch and a higher wrist than other fingering but this is no different than certain RH passages of the Winter Wind (can find you bar number if your wish:))
-it seems harder to achieve convincingly on certain pianos than on others

I wanted to ask people on this forum who have knowledge of this piece to give me their opinions. Obviously no one seems to mention this fingering, so I guess I will confronted with a barrage of criticism and then borrow a digital camera in defence!

Have a nice day,

Edouard

[Bacfokievrahms]

Huh that's interesting. I haven't tried it out but mentally it seems incredibly awkward. The 1235 doesn't fit any natural hand shape, and it's unavoidable at tempo that you'll be scrunching your hand together fairly uncomfortably when it comes time for the 1235 to repeat. I'd stick with the recommended fingering, although I like my left middle finger a lot so I go 3124 exclusively for those runs

[ted]

Yes, it is interesting. I enjoy trying all sorts of new fingerings. I'll try it out for a few days and see how it goes.

[Awakening]

I think it's actually quite a horrible fingering.  I can't imagine playing those runs at any speed with your 1, 2, 3, 5 fingering.  The biggest problem I see with it is how awkward it is to go down this scale from 5 to 1.  In the given fingering (3, 1, 2, 4) everything can be done with incredible smoothness, because there are no large arm movements.  Everything flows together and the entire scale can be played without having to lift the arm.  With your proposed fingering, instead of "pivoting" your way down the keyboard, you have to make jerky arm movements for every repeated motive.  If you can play it smoothly and up to speed this way, then that's fine, but I've never heard of anyone performing this piece with your suggested fingering.  Fingering is quite a personal thing, however, so if it works for you, do it.  I know that I'm happy with the fingering just the way it is.

I find the given fingering very comfortable, and your suggested fingering very uncomfortable, and I think most people would agree. 

However, I admit--the most difficult aspect of the fingering is how different the right and left hand fingerings are.  I have trouble keeping the right and left hand in perfect sync with eachother at high tempos.  Because the fingering is so different for the right hand, it has a very different feel to it when I play it than the left hand.  I know this can be easily addressed, though, namely through slow, disciplined practice of hands together.

[edouard]

I can perfectly understand that you don't like the fingering I suggested, it's a matter of taste; there was an element of provocation; but I still think that it is only 'horrible' if you attempt to play it with excessive articulation. I'll try to get a digital camera off a friend a film myself to show you!

Anyways, here's another suggestion for a different passage of that same etude:
bars 29-32 when the key suddenly shifts to G Sharp minor. In my opinion this is the trickiest lh bit of the etude and the Deschaussees book on the etudes is of the same opinion.
Cortot suggests: 3212 5421 5421 ascending and always 5421 descending

I suggest: 3212 4521 5421  ascending and also changing the 54 to 45 when the 5 would be on a black note desending.
I also think it's possible to play; 3212 3521 5321, but it's a bit less comfortable.
Again I don't think that this passage is best executed with exaggerated articulation, but rather discretely and precisely.

Any comments on this one?

Yours,

Edouard

[fowler]

Hi,

This piece is not really that difficult enough to ponder on for an extended amount of time in my opinion. I think cortot's fingering as you say is perfect and fits nicely on the fingers, in the score I have (am learning the piece at present) its exactly that fingering of 2124, 3124, whats wrong with that? perfection. 

The piece I am having trouble with at the moment is that insane op10.2 etude, its the hardest piece I have attempted to date, I can get the fingering right but can only play some of the piece after hours of warming my fingers up, this study is just pain, I even heard of a great pianist who could just not play it, period. What does anyone else think, sorry to hijack this post.

[edouard]

Dear all,

thanks for your input!

Dear Fowler,

I don't mind you hijacking this post.  It is then doomed to join the legions of deceased Op.10/2 posts calling from the catacombs of  PF

However I must take issue with what you say:
-if the Op.10/12 is so easy that we need not discuss technical and musical arising from it, then:
-why did Chopin write it? and close the opus with it?
-just because op.10/2 is more difficult for the fingers (I agree with you) IMO its musical import is relatively limited compared to Op.10/12.
-why are you still learning the piece? How do you know that you will be able to play it perfectly without difficulty even before having finished learning it?

I'm perfectly happy to disagree on a particular point but I'm simply a bit frustrated when someone tells me that there's no point even talking about the subject.
The fingering one uses changes the performance and is geared  towards the musical significance of the piece. In my view, even if say 'oiseaux tristes' of ravel is 'easy' this doesnt mean we can't talk about the fingering.

have a nice day,

edouard

[ted]

I tried the fingering, Edouard, and it doesn't suit my hand. I can play it all right, but for me it is harder than the other one. Thanks for the suggestion though;it's always good to try different fingerings.

[Awakening]

I can perfectly understand that you don't like the fingering I suggested, it's a matter of taste; there was an element of provocation; but I still think that it is only 'horrible' if you attempt to play it with excessive articulation. I'll try to get a digital camera off a friend a film myself to show you!

Anyways, here's another suggestion for a different passage of that same etude:
bars 29-32 when the key suddenly shifts to G Sharp minor. In my opinion this is the trickiest lh bit of the etude and the Deschaussees book on the etudes is of the same opinion.
Cortot suggests: 3212 5421 5421 ascending and always 5421 descending

I suggest: 3212 4521 5421  ascending and also changing the 54 to 45 when the 5 would be on a black note desending.
I also think it's possible to play; 3212 3521 5321, but it's a bit less comfortable.
Again I don't think that this passage is best executed with exaggerated articulation, but rather discretely and precisely.

Any comments on this one?

Yours,

Edouard

I agree, this part of the etude is quite tricky.  However, I find the most difficult lefthand part to be measures 15 and 16.  For some reason, these arpeggios really put my left hand to the test, and I have trouble being accurate and steady in the rhythm.  I kind of agree with what Fowler said, in the sense that this etude is probably not difficult enough to ponder over extensively.  It's interesting that you're trying to come up with more efficient fingerings, though, but I have no problem with the listed ones.  I would like to note that I use 5421 all through 28-32. and 3124 all through the main descending runs.  I like to keep fingering simple, and my hand is quite flexible, so it's no problem.

[i_m_robot]

1235


that's impossible for self

hands too big

have to make extreme cup hand

self avoids putting only the thumb on black keys when notes are so close together

perhaps bad?


help

[edouard]

Dear Robot,
I agree with you that the hand position is not wide for this fingering but rather close together. Don't bother with 1235 if it feels awkward, as the others have said, the traditional fingering works fine!
However the thumb on black keys policy may get you into trouble. for eg: how would you play the right hand part in Op 10 Nr/ 4 around half way when RH alone gradually winds its way up the keyboard to Csharp minor and left hand play Dominant 7th chord? IMO 1234 is the best solution and that is even 'closer' than the fingering we were talking about  in Op.10 Nr. 12...
-edouard-

[i_m_robot]

if the thumbs on c# or f# its not abig problem- but it still wierd

perhaps self should use this right hand passage to train the left hand to play in the same manner

[Bulgarian]

Dear Edouard,

I can’t quite understand the point of your question and this entire discussion. If you are happy about your fingering why do you need to ask other people to “approve” it?  Everybody has the right of his/her own mistakes and opinions, so don’t be afraid of being wrong. In Art this is much better than being undeceive.
Cheers, Bulgarian

[i_m_robot]

where are you from mister bulgarian

[Bulgarian]

Hi Edouard,
As you can guess I am originally from Bulgaria, currently living in Kamloops, British Columbia, Canada. If you are curious you can see my home page www.geocities.com/d_terziev

[i_m_robot]

lucky you

[Bulgarian]

lucky you

?

[pianiststrongbad]

I use a slightly different fingering.  I start with 2124 and then use 3124 on all of the rest of them.  I agree that I can't play it with 1235.  The most difficult part is making it sound smooth.  I honestly don't see the point in it either, the fingering which is provided is not that difficult to play compared to 1235 in my opinion.  I think you are making the piece more difficult than it needs to be.  Just my opinion.

[edouard]

Dear Bulgarian,

Firstly, sorry for the confusion, but I wasn't the one asking you where you came from.

Second, I don't really get your point concerning 'approval'.
I believe that a forum is for discussing matters. If one is 'wrong' (not that with fingerings one can be 'wrong') then I think it positively helps to discuss the matter with fellow pianists. The worst kind of pianist is generally the one who sits in his corner, takes no lessons, and believes he is the best in the world. (not saying this personally by any means)
I was never asking for approval. I made this thread because i can play this fingering at speed etc and I find it more comfortable than any other fingering. However, knowing several editions and having seen several performances, I was very curious to see what other pianists would make of it. For example Ted (and others) kindly gave me his thoughts on the matter.
It's just that this year I am not affiliated to any conservatory and so it's nice to have some discussion. I hope this is not asking too much from a forum?
Also I feel that it is more worthwhile to discuss precise matters than 90% of the discussion on this forum which tends to be: hardest piece ever, best pianist ever etc...and some even more futile subjects. (not to mention the infamous breadboy thread! comic relief I guess)/ Can you imagine people on the 'food' forum having threads like: what is the nicest food?!!!?? I think my parallel is sound.

best regards,

Edouard

[Barbosa-piano]

             It is an interesting idea, but it does not work for me. I didn't even practiced it that much so I didn't felt strange with my old Alfred Cortot's fingering. Good thing about it is that you can really emphasize easily the notes with marcato marks on them.
             This would be very good for someone who has small hands and were geting used to the piece.
                                                        My best wishes,
                                                           Barbosa-piano

[Bulgarian]

Dear Edouard,

Thank you for your interesting comment and clarification. First of all, I want to apologize in case I have offended you, this certainly wasn't my intention. I would like to return to your letter at one point but I have to leave it for another time.
Cheers. D

[i_m_robot]

?

Lucky YOU

https://www.geocities.com/d_terziev/Photo1.html

[superstar]

I played this etude for more than 6 years now , i began to play it in tempo after 2 months after good practicing ... believe me most of the editions are right when it comes to fingering ... in other hand,i dont want to sound arogant but while performing people not just listen to u , they do look at u also , and i cant imagine ur fingering as a nice hand to watch it will have the hills and volleys ... i think u just didnt practice this etude like it should be ... i usually read this forum , i dont reply too much but i can say , that most of the guys in here have problems with really easy pieces like campanella to play , technic is the least thing im afraid of , with wise thinking and meditating before any practice u can save not doubles but dozens of the time usually it takes for most ... every pianist must have his own "tradition" in practicing and then in playing , me and my profesors never really bothered to talk about technic matters (well sometimes i need some advise for example Prokofiev) but the quality of tone is that matters ... so really , there's no much to discuss about technic , everybody has a different hand , sometimes it differs a lot , sometimes it doesnt seem to differ but the fact as , there are so many types of hand as much as there are people on the world .... if u really are comfortable with these fingerings and ur hand doesnt "look" too unacceptable .. then do ur thing ...
regards

[Bulgarian]

Dear Edouard,

Let me return to the question of why I wrote that there wasn't any point in this discussion.

What I found incomprehensible was what YOU can gain from it. Only two types of replies were possible based on your initial letter:

#1. I like this fingering (basically meaning "This fingering works for me") and

#2 I don't like this fingering (doesn't work for me).

So, how can knowledge like this help you when performing the Etude?

I mean, it would have been understandable if the message in your first letter were: "I have problem with this spot, can anyone suggest an alternative fingering?"  You did not sound, however, like you had any PROBLEM. So, why (I thought) should this guy care if other people like his fingering or not?

The other thing I found incomprehensible was that you took the trouble of trying to INTELLECTUALLY JUSTIFY THE USE OF YOUR FINGERING. To me this sounded like absolutely unnecessary defence against potential accusations.
I believe that NO OTHER JUSTIFICATION AN ARTIST NEEDS FOR HIS/ HER DECISIONS EXCEPT HIS/HER OWN ARTISTIC WILL, WHIM AND (MOSTLY) INTUITION!

So, in a nutshell, my first letter to you should be read as: "Do whatever you want, you are the person to set the rules, not the one to follow them".

Now, as I said, this is what I thought after your first letter. After your second letter I came to the conclusion that I may have been mistaken; perhaps the hidden message in your first letter should be read as "I am glad to share this interesting discovery I made". In that case, everything  makes much more and much better sense.

Well I hope everything is clear now.

[sznitzeln]

Hello everyone!

I think the original question is valid. As you see he got an overwhelming response that the orignal fingering is more efficient. So maybe that will influence him to change back, and maybe he will agree that it was indeed better. Nothing is completely relative or completely absolute. If you ask 1000 pianists if the fingering is better and everyone says yes, then probably you should use it.

Besides, by asking this question he made Ted and maybe others to try this fingering out, so he was of use to others.

And even if there is no "use" in asking, he wanted to ask, and I cant understand how this discussion would disturb anyone.

Unless Eduoards pinky is 3 times as long his thumb and his index finger is pointing 90 degrees left, or something like that, I think others' fingerings can often be applied to Eduoard. As I said, its not completely relative.

 

[Bulgarian]

Hello everyone!

I think the original question is valid. As you see he got an overwhelming response that the orignal fingering is more efficient. So maybe that will influence him to change back, and maybe he will agree that it was indeed better. Nothing is completely relative or completely absolute. If you ask 1000 pianists if the fingering is better and everyone says yes, then probably you should use it.

Besides, by asking this question he made Ted and maybe others to try this fingering out, so he was of use to others.

And even if there is no "use" in asking, he wanted to ask, and I cant understand how this discussion would disturb anyone.

Unless Eduoards pinky is 3 times as long his thumb and his index finger is pointing 90 degrees left, or something like that, I think others' fingerings can often be applied to Eduoard. As I said, its not completely relative.

 

Well, let's just say that everybody has right to ask any question, everybody has right to answer it and everybody has right to say that the question may be useless. All agree?

[edouard]

Thanks for your answer Bulgarian, I agree with what you say.
I was off PForum for some time as I fell off my bike and have sprained by right wrist... quite frustrating for a musician...
best wishes,
edouard

[sznitzeln]

Yes, everyone has the right to say a question is useless, but also:
Everyone has the right to say that they are wrong

[Bulgarian]

Yes, everyone has the right to say a question is useless, but also:
Everyone has the right to say that they are wrong

 :)That's funny, your letter made me realize the fact that I have been living in Canada for too long. I almost forgot that in Europe it was O.K. to say bluntly "You are wrong!" or "They are wrong!". Here the equivallent is "I don't quite share your/ their opinion". or "Sorry, I don't understand your point". Anyway, this is a different subject, plus I am half-joking,
Cheers, D

[leondelarosa]

I think it's actually quite a horrible fingering.  I can't imagine playing those runs at any speed with your 1, 2, 3, 5 fingering.  The biggest problem I see with it is how awkward it is to go down this scale from 5 to 1.  In the given fingering (3, 1, 2, 4) everything can be done with incredible smoothness, because there are no large arm movements.  Everything flows together and the entire scale can be played without having to lift the arm.  With your proposed fingering, instead of "pivoting" your way down the keyboard, you have to make jerky arm movements for every repeated motive.  If you can play it smoothly and up to speed this way, then that's fine, but I've never heard of anyone performing this piece with your suggested fingering.  Fingering is quite a personal thing, however, so if it works for you, do it.  I know that I'm happy with the fingering just the way it is.

I find the given fingering very comfortable, and your suggested fingering very uncomfortable, and I think most people would agree. 

However, I admit--the most difficult aspect of the fingering is how different the right and left hand fingerings are.  I have trouble keeping the right and left hand in perfect sync with eachother at high tempos.  Because the fingering is so different for the right hand, it has a very different feel to it when I play it than the left hand.  I know this can be easily addressed, though, namely through slow, disciplined practice of hands together.

i totally agree with your comment on that fingering suggestion. however, would you try rh with this fngering 3212321etc. my techer has been telling me to use this but i hevent relly tried it.

[edouard]

Dear Leondelarosa,
Your r.h. fingering does not work for me. 4321 fits nicely for my hand, as it does with most I believe. As well as being uncomfortable, it seems to defeat the idea of articulating less in this passage. (I'm not saying you must not play it clearly!)
best,
Edouard

[squigly]

Ouaou!!! 1235!!! Thats a real etude!!!  !!! (Only joking...) I try to play this etude with the fingers the book says. to tell the truth i have learned a part wrong and im trying to fix it... Anyway! be happy!