The pianos at the Van Cliburn

[iumonito]

Anyone one knows anything about these pianos?  I think they have several Steinway Ds, at least one from New York, one from Hamburg and the Van Cliburn foundation Steinway.  I believe they have nothing but Steinway (how sad).

Are these pianos costumized in any way, who is the technician overseeing their condition?

The competition starts today at 2:pm EDT.

[G.Fiore]

 Along with the Steinways, they have available a Bösendorfer 280, Yamaha CFlllS, and Kawai EX. There is no customization, the pianos are tuned, and regulated. Contestents choose based on the repetoire being played and what piano suits their needs.

[iumonito]

Good to know.

I bet that Yamaha plays through the roof.  I wonder whether anyone will choose it.

[Alde]

From the competition broadcasts, why does it seem like all the pianos are really bright?

[iumonito]

Alas, I finally got some information on this.  Curry, please let me know if you know for a fact this is erroneous, but they only have three pianos available: two New York and one Hamburg Steinway Ds.  No Bose, no Yamaha, no Kawai.

Are you thinking of the Chopin?

[Axtremus]

Piano availability info inconsistent. See https://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/3/1412.html#000001 and https://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/3/1412.html#000003 .

[G.Fiore]

 Sorry, I'm not up to date with all the competitions. In the recent past, any piano a competitor wanted was provided at the Cliburn.   All Steinway at the Cliburn now just reenforces Steinway's strong arm domination and relentless marketing.

[beach]

Yes, all Steinway at the Cliburn.  The Cliburn has gone with Steinway as the official piano of the competition.  I'm lucky enough to live in Fort Worth and I went to a Prelim and Finals session.  They have a New York and a Hamburg Steinway to choose from.

[texas911]

Oh those poor poor pianists, they have to play on those crappy Steinways!

I think maybe logistically wouldn't it be better just to have the same pianos played by all the contestants? Equal footing kind of thing? Only on pianoforum would this be considered a negative (having to play on Steinways!).

[Axtremus]

texas911,

Sometimes people just want some external validation to make them feel better about their own piano choices, and people who sell pianos other than Steinways would understandably want their pianos to get more exposure. Getting their pianos played in a high profile competition is one way of achieving those objectives. Breaking the Steinway monopoly is the required first step towards achieving those objectives. Piano "choice" and "diversity" are the politically correct marketing and public relations code word to drive such processes.

Owners of "market leading" brands such as Steinway and Yamaha don't need to come to the Internet to get that external validation. People who sell Steinway and Yamaha already have the mind share and don't need to use the Internet as much to market their ware.

You pop in a piano CD, you hear Steinway 90% of the time. You go to a piano concert, you see Steinway 90% of the time. You talk to your piano-playing friend at school, chances are good that that friend of yours learns on a Yamaha. You visit your neighbor who has a piano, chances are good that that piano is a Yamaha. External validation is abundantly available to owners of "market leading" brands. But if you own something obscure like, for example, a Pleyel, then you're not likely to find any CD featuring a Pleyel in your local record store, you are not likely to see Pleyel in any concert, you're not likely to find another Pleyel owner in your neighborhood. If you want any external validation to make you feel better about owning a Pleyel, you'd have to go on line so you can talk to another Pleyel owner/dealer. Instead of 10 Yamaha owners in one neighborhood, you'd be lucky to find 10 Pleyel owners in one Internet forum with a supposedly global reach.

So, my hypothesis goes, it would seem that the proportion of folks who like obscure brands is much higher in Internet piano forums than it is in the general population.

[iumonito]

Oh those poor poor pianists, they have to play on those crappy Steinways!

I think maybe logistically wouldn't it be better just to have the same pianos played by all the contestants? Equal footing kind of thing? Only on pianoforum would this be considered a negative (having to play on Steinways!).

Those were crappy Steinways; at some point one of the pianos went out of tune as the competitor played some repeated notes and the general sense was that the pianos were too bright. 

Do I wish I could hear Cabassi and Plano on a concert ready Fazioli, Joyce Yang would tear off the roof if she had a chance to play her Prokofiev 2d on a well prepped Baldwin SD 10, and I can assure you all of those Mozart and Beethoven concerti would have been much much nicer on a Bose.

Did I mention that the winners of the past two Tchaikovsky Comeptitions have chosen Yamaha to play in the finals?  And if I recall correctly Ingrid Fliter (2d prize in the last Chopin) played a Kawai.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I think there is no dispute that Steinway is the best-marketed piano in history, yet far from being the best piano in history.  They are available everywhere, so people play them, and because of how concerthalls are set up, it would be suicidal for a concert pianist to not play them.  You should read about the terror stories of what Steinway is said to have done to Garrick Olsohnn and Louis Lortie over their attemps to use other pianos in their concerts.

We are not talking about obscure brands here, Bluthner, Bechstein, Steigraeber, Fazioli, even Seiler have been making pianos for a long time and have been played by the great artists of the past (Fazioli is the new kid on the block, just about, what, 20 - 30 years).  Some did not survive (like Knabe and Chickering) and some others are in resurrection mode (like Mason & Hamlin).

Try them, try them, you may like them.

[texas911]

at some point one of the pianos went out of tune as the competitor played some repeated notes and the general sense was that the pianos were too bright. 

You're the guy who wasn't even 100% sure they only had Steinways so are we to believe this bit of information is 100% correct? Or just hear say?

Steinway my have genius marketing but as is true with most things, you need to back that up with a quality product. Do you seriously believe that Steinway has been pulling the wool over our eyes for over 100 years? If they were so terrible people wouldn't play on them even with all the marketing in the world.

[iumonito]

I should ignore you.  We simply don't agree on anything.

If you really care, I asked the question before the competition started, which is a reasonable point not to be sure about what instruments are available.

The other information is well documented in press releases available on Internet from Yamaha and Kawai.

If you don't believe marketing can keep afloat a lesser product, I have some things to sell you.   

Cheers,
H

[Axtremus]

Uhm... not knocking on Steinway, but it is true that a Steinway did go rather badly out-of-tune (during Joyce Yang's solo recital in the final round, if you want to buy her recording from the Cliburn Foundation to verify that yourself -- you can hear it going out of tune mid-performance).

I like Steinway, my friends and I have been using Steinway at our recitals in the last 4+ years, but fact is fact -- one Steinway did went out of tune at the Cliburn. So what? I certainly wouldn't tar the whole brand just because one piano got out of tune in a brutal competition. (You've got to see/hear Joyce Young in her final Cliburn recital to grasp just how much abuse she can pace the piano through, and she's not the only one; the word "brutal" applies to competitors as well as pianos!)

And hey, I saw and heard Yundi Li broke a string in a recital too -- on another Steinway D! Big deal!

These concert pianos really do have to endure lots of stress when compared to regular folk's home instruments. It's hard to say that the other brands' concert instruments won't see the same problems at similar or higher frequencies since these other instruments are rarely put through the same amount of stress year after year like many Steinway D "war horses" have been.

[LJC]

Iumonito, If you don't like Steinway thats OK by me but trashing the brand is not OK by me. While I agree that Steinway has some great marketing, part of that great marketing is having some of world's best pianos and that is not to say some of the others are not excellent. I happen to own a great Steinway D but I have played some other pianos that I thought were excellent. Most of the others dont compare however. Any piano can have a note go out of tune for a number of reasons.  As for Steinway being far from the best? I think that statement is far from the truth.

[beach]

I sat front row right in front of Joyce Yang at her finals recital and as far as I'm concerned the piano didn't go out of tune.  She did beat the heck out of it.  I'd love to own a Steinway someday.

[iumonito]

We should be done with this.  Those that have ears shall hear.

I have played worse than Steinway, I am not saying it is the worst piano.  It simply is not in my top 5 (actually brands.

I have played them in concert.  I have played better pianos in concert.  It is a matter of opinion; you are entitled to yours.

I think the loose pin incident happened in the semis, btw.

Ask anyone who knows: Steinways have a higher incidence of broken strings in the upper register because of the angle of theh capo d'astro bar.

Enjoy your Steinways.  If you put one in my living room I would play it for a while (then sell it, by a Mason and an appartment in Bonaire with the rest of the money.)

That's it.  I shall not be tempted to respond any further.  Hack away as you please.

[dinosaurtales]

Well, I have to tip into this one, because my piano teacher drives me nuts.  in her narrow world, Steinway is the only company that has ever made a decent piano. Unless you want something a bit different, in which case, either a Hamburg or Grotrian (which started out as a Steinway) would be "okay".  She's proud of her history of helping universities and the symphony select concert grands for their halls.  What did they choose to look at?  Well, Steinways, of course.  NO OTHER BRANDS EXIST!

So imagine her concern for my welfare when I shopped for pianos, played damn near everything - travelled to do it, and selected a FAZIOLI!  She is sure to this day I should have gotten a Steinway.  Poor lady - She drank the potion.

[LJC]

Iumonito, You say it is a matter of opinion but it seems that you think that those that do not agree with you do not have ears. I think there are lots of people that have ears just as good as yours and do not agree with you. If you like 5 other brands better than Steinway I respect your opinion, but I do not agree and there is nothing wrong with my ears. As for the strings breaking more frequently on Steinways I doubt it but I will look into it. It just sounds like more of your trashing to me. I think you are really just trying to settle a score with Steinway.

[ajw400]

OK, I don't want to create any enemies here, but my 2 centavos:

You can't evaluate all Steinways at once. There have been *enormous* contrasts in quality between different time periods of the New York steinway factory, and it is a fact that the pianos have never been the same since all the master craftsmen left in the late 60's-70's. I personally have never liked a Steinway that has been made since then, but some people love them. It is undisputable fact that the craftsmanship is quite...no....*extremlely* sloppy sometimes these days!!! New pianos regularly arrive with trash in them, the hammers can be misshapen, uneven hammer flanges, horrible regulation problems....you name it. All these problems can be managed effectively by a good technician. I know one of the older craftsmen that left the New York Steinway factory in the 70's because he thought that the quality of work being done was an insult to his profession, and he's been doing his fine work elsewhere since then (he rebuilt my family's 1905 Steinway A so beautifully.... a dream to play on, completely wonderful regulation, the hammers balanced and controlled, and a sound that just sings and sings!)

That brings me to a different Steinway era. At my school, I practice on a NY Steinway from 1906 that is also really quite wonderful - they must have been doing something very right during that time period of production.


Anyway, for the record, I really like Hamburg Steinways - I've never played on better pianos than the hamburg steinways in Banff at Rolston hall.....what a dream.....

[Axtremus]

ajw400,

I am curious what are the vintatges of the newer Steinways you have played, and what models.

Also, that NY 1906 Steinway in your school that you like... what model is it, and more importantly, has it been rebuilt? If it's really 1906, than chances are very good that is has been rebuilt, most likely with new pin block and new soundboard -- the piano has been taken apart and then put back together. whatever "goodness" of that piano you perceive is due to the work of those who rebuilt that piano. Unless Steinway itself rebuilt that piano, the superior performance you perceive from that piano would have nothing to do with Steinway's workmanship, and you would have no guarantee that the rebuilder used a Steinway soundboard or Steinway pinblock or even Steinway hammers.

[pianopitchman]

I am always amazed how vocal and opionated people who dislike Steinway are.  I will not try to make an argument as to the best piano in the world, as there are many great instruments and personal opinion does play a large part.
however, after more than a decade in the industry, I have found many more artists, educators and technicians with positive things to say about Steinway than negative. 

iumonito- were you ever turned down by the concert & artist people at S&S?  Personal grudge maybe?

dinosaurtales- one minor correction.  Grotrian didn't start out as Steinway, but as Steinweg.  CF Theodore Steinweg, the mastermind behind many of Steinway's technical breakthroughs, partnered with Grotrian to form Grotrian-Steinweg before leaving Germany for the US.  It was after his association with Grotrian ended that he came to the United States, anglo-sized his name and started designing for his fathers company. 

[ajw400]

Axtremus,

You are right, both pianos were rebuilt. Maybe it's just the refinement of a master piano technician that the new Steinways lack. So, as a word to the wise, if you buy a new Steinway, send it to be rebuilt by someone good! Building pianos is definitely an art, not a science, and I distrust the result of any piano manufacturer that has the different tasks of the production processed so isolated and specialized as Steinway. I would much prefer a working-alone craftsman who can take real pride in making a piano sound the best it can possibly sound, and can treat my piano with love. If the appeal of cookie-cutter pianos is stronger to you, just buy a yamaha, lol. I might add here that the Hamburg Steinways seem much more well made these days and the actions in general are much superior, as well as the soundboard design (it sings more).

BTW: I was at the Van Cliburn from the first note to the last, and the pianos did not seem too bright in the hall. Well, except when Sa played, but she is just monstrously strong and really played unbelievably loudly. In fact, I think that the pianos were voiced up, perhaps, to be heard better in the cavernous, echoey, swallowy Bass hall, and the players that could not produce enough sound were the ones first eliminated. Most players chose the Hamburg Steinway or the Van Cliburn New York Steinway, and only a handful or less chose the New York Steinway that was sent straight from the NY showroom for the competition.... Maybe it was still too new

[Axtremus]

Axtremus,

You are right, both pianos were rebuilt. Maybe it's just the refinement of a master piano technician that the new Steinways lack. So, as a word to the wise, if you buy a new Steinway, send it to be rebuilt by someone good! Building pianos is definitely an art, not a science, and I distrust the result of any piano manufacturer that has the different tasks of the production processed so isolated and specialized as Steinway. I would much prefer a working-alone craftsman who can take real pride in making a piano sound the best it can possibly sound, and can treat my piano with love. If the appeal of cookie-cutter pianos is stronger to you, just buy a yamaha, lol. I might add here that the Hamburg Steinways seem much more well made these days and the actions in general are much superior, as well as the soundboard design (it sings more).

OK...

1. Do you know who or which shop did the rebuild of the 1906 Steinway when? How do you know that the 1906 Steinway was rebuilt by ONE craftsman and not by a team of craftsmen where one installed the soundboard, the other fitted the pin block, the third notched the bridges, the fourth did the key action, the fifth the pedal action, the sixth rebronzed of the plate, the seventh redid the finish, and the eighth the final voicing and regulation?

2. I have played more than two dozen new NY Steinway pianos in the last two years and more than half a dozen rebuilt Steinways. On the whole, I like most of the new ones better than most of the rebuilt ones. One rebuilt stood out -- a particular 190x Hamburg Steinway D I played in NYC Klavierhaus next to a Fazioli F-278, but I have no idea if that Hamburg D was rebuilt by ONE craftsman who did the whole shebang, or by a team of craftsmen each doing one part.

3. I am also curious if you (ajw400) have played Mason and Hamlin pianos, especially those built after, say, year 2000. I'm curious to know what you think of them.

4. Just to reiterate a question from the previous post -- I'm still curious about what are the vintatges of the newer Steinways you have played in the recent past, and what models. You certainly have a strong opinion and I respect that. I just want to understand better what you base your opinion on. Thanks.

[ajw400]

Axtremus,

1. My family's Steinway was rebuilt by pyrianos, an outfit in greenwich connecticut. Their work was quite superior and was supervised by a technician named Tali, who I don't know anything about except that she used to travel around with Eugene Istomin and Andre Michel Schub maintaining their pianos. As for the actual work, there was one person that did much of the action and soundboard part, who was also a steinway ex, and then some other people refinished the plate. Then Tali worked on it and had us come in to try it out. We both felt that the hammers could feel a little heavier, so she put in a new set and then it was just hunky-dory. BTW, this is I think one of the best rebuilding companies. There's also a guy near New Paltz that does all the work himself A-Z with no assistance and he does an amazing job, but it costs around $25,000 which for me is out of my current budget. The other piano at my school was rebuilt by 1 person, the school technician.

2. I guess it's really a matter of taste on the new pianos. I find that the range of colors on new Steinways was relatively quite narrower than the rebuilt ones I've laid my hands on, but of course there are those quacks out there just out to make a mighty dollar (like Faust) who do very shoddy work. And also, it's a matter of degree when you're talking about specializing the process. Does one person do the whole action, or does each person only know how to install or regulate on part or one screw.

3. I have played on one, if I remember right, at Beethoven pianos in NY and I don't remember feeling too strongly either way about it. I remember liking the Grotrian I tried, though.

4. I've played on the whole range of new Steinways. The festival I'm performing at now just bought two new D's (2 months ago) and a new A (which is back in production now) but they also have several concert pianos from the '80's and '90's. None of them are great (although I haven't tried the A yet and I love A's).