Taught vs discovered technique - Czerny vs. Fink/Sandor vs. Self

[AvoidedCadence]

If I'm not mistaken, it's true that, according to Bernhard (if I'm not wrong; see https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8981.0.html), Fink/Sandor and Hanon/Czerny/et al. are BOTH flawed approaches - not just "wrong," (ie having  incorrect methods for how to acquire 'technique') but also trying to do something that cannot be done - prescribe technique independently of repertory.  Here's what I mean (I think):

Hanon and Czerny teach (I'm not quoting) - "do these exercises many times, and your technique will improve."

In contrast, Fink (whose book I am currently reading/studying) says - "here is how to MOVE in a healthy manner, which will improve your playing, reduce unhealthy tension and the risk of injury"

One is a mindless "recipe" which is mostly useless, even harmful.  The other (from what I have gathered so far) is designed to cultivate an awareness of the principles of efficient movement.  Are these the same?

Bernhard answers, in short (I think) :  They both teach technique prior to, and in the absence of music, therefore they are "misguided."

At this point, I return to the reason behind my post.  I am of course guided by the higher-level question:  How does one independently discover the correct technique to play a passage?  This with respect to the whole playing apparatus, the entire body.  My lower-level question on this thread, is: Will this learned repertory of movements help a pianist to improve?

Suppose (for a bad example, but if I'm not specific I'm sure I will be rightly accused of taking technique out of context) that I desire to learn (say) the Sixth Hungarian Rhapsody (Note: I do not play and am not learning this piece.  My question is: how can I DISCOVER how to play it? and specifically, will a study of octave playing along the lines of Fink/Sandor assist me in finding a correct way of playing it?).

I am faced with a huge number of ways to play this passage.  I must decide what use I will make of the 4th finger, what position to hold my wrist, how much wrist flexion to use, how much lower arm muscle to use, how loudly to play, how to 'release' the note, .... ad infinitum.

And also suppose that, after isolating the octave passage (in this example), I am consistently faced (say) with wrist tiredness and (eventually) tendon soreness. (I have never actually attempted this piece).  Even IF I eventually manage to work the passage up to speed, it is clear that my technique is wrong.  Not only will my playing sound "stiff", but, if I persevere, injury will result.  Further suppose that I try several ways, but fail, to alleviate this problem.

FINALLY returning to the question:  will a more 'pragmatic' teaching approach (being told how to play these octaves) such as studying the specific methods of a good teacher (in this case Fink) produce superior results to trying to discover how to play this passage from 'scratch?'  (From here it's only slightly a stretch to ask, can a teacher help with technique at all?  Mine does rarely, if ever. But that's not the question.)

Apologies for such a long question.  I'd appreciate hearing what everyone thinks.

[xvimbi]

I think your question ("how can anyone work out proper technique") is in fact fairly easy to answer. All that is required is a good understanding of how the human body works. Specifically, one needs to know the following:

- what muscles or muscle groups are responsible for which movements around the various joints
- where are these muscles located
- where do the tendons run and which muscles and bones do they connect to
- what is the natural range of motion around each joint; where are the extremes
- staying within about the middle 1/3 of the motion of any joint is considered "healthy"
- using extreme motions (outside the middle 1/3) is potentially dangerous
- what are the principles of good posture

With these guidelines in hand, one can work out a healthy way for just about any movement. With respect to piano playing, the remainder is to connect the various types of movements and their combinations with the resulting sound and keep on refining the motions until one gets a satisfactory result. Of course, it does help a lot if one knows the inner workings of how a piano actually produces sound, but this is not strictly required. What is however necessary is a "good ear", which needs to be trained as well.

Some people who have never had formal training are quite capable of working out a good technique on their own. Talk to Ted about this. I think all that's really required is a critical mind, paying attention, making careful observations and analyzing the results. Most people nowadays don't do any of that; they are just interested in preformulated recipes that may or may not work for them. If not, they either keep doing wrong things or move on to another recipe without analyzing why the first one didn't work.

Well, all this is very much a philosophy for life in general: be critical, know your basics and you can derive anything you want from them. Be prepared to question anything and be prepared to revise any of your opinions.

Finally, can a teacher help with technique at all? Yes, of course. Although a teacher may not be able to tell you what to do, s/he can often tell you what NOT to do. That's already very helpful. A teacher can aid in your quest to find the proper motions, e.g. by pointing out options that you have not considered, thus significantly reducing the time it takes. Obviously, those teachers who know a lot about the human body and have potentially themselves gone through what you are trying to do would be most effective.

Sorry for the long answer

[sznitzeln]

1) Dont waste energy, and dont tense yourself or your muscels without need.
2) When playing fast your body must find movements that are not too big. So no superflous movements.
3) The weight of the arms should partially rest on the piano. The fingers must therefore be able to support the weight. In my experience it takes a lot of time for the fingers to obtain a stable position on the keyboard.
4) With various movements of the body you can help the fingers, but you musnt underestimate the role of the fingers.

I think learning technique should be natural. The music calls for the technique. When you try to play something difficult, you automaticly aquire the technique if you are persistent to really get it technically right. Its not enough to get it right though, you musnt use more energy than is neccessary and you must feel as confident and relaxed as possible.

If you feel like doing technical exercises it can help you, but dont spend nearly as much time on them as on music.

[bernhard]

If I'm not mistaken, it's true that, according to Bernhard (if I'm not wrong; see https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8981.0.html), Fink/Sandor and Hanon/Czerny/et al. are BOTH flawed approaches - not just "wrong," (ie having  incorrect methods for how to acquire 'technique') but also trying to do something that cannot be done - prescribe technique independently of repertory.  Here's what I mean (I think):

Hanon and Czerny teach (I'm not quoting) - "do these exercises many times, and your technique will improve."

In contrast, Fink (whose book I am currently reading/studying) says - "here is how to MOVE in a healthy manner, which will improve your playing, reduce unhealthy tension and the risk of injury"

One is a mindless "recipe" which is mostly useless, even harmful.  The other (from what I have gathered so far) is designed to cultivate an awareness of the principles of efficient movement.  Are these the same?

Bernhard answers, in short (I think) :  They both teach technique prior to, and in the absence of music, therefore they are "misguided."

Excellent answers above. Saved me a lot of writing!

I completely agree with everything said by xvimbi and snitzeln above. I will just add the following:

I do not really put Sandor, Fink, Hanon and Czerny in the same boat. I reread the thread you quoted, and I agree that in isolation it may seem that I do, so here is the qualification:

Hanon, Schmidt, Pischna et al. are the worst. The physicality is completely divorced from the musicality, and the directions they give goes completely against anatomical facts. In my opinion they should be avoided as a waste of time at best and as injury-conducive at worst.

Czerny is very different from the above. Czerny actually has music around the exercising. Unfortunately with a few exceptions most of it is very mediocre music. If you want “studies”, that is pieces of music the stress a particular technique (movement pattern) there are far better choices, for instance like Scarlatti and Bach, and for more advanced stuff, Chopin and Liszt studies. In short, Czerny is simply not necessary. Why would anyone prefer to dedicate time to learn a Czerny study when they can learn a Scarlatti sonata completely escapes me. Of course, Czenry is not the only one doing this sort of thing. Eggeling, Bertini, Gurlitt, Burgmuller, Cramer, Heller, Moskowski are all into it in different degrees of musical mediocrity. By all means learn and work on these studies, provided you are interested in them as repertory. As long as one enjoys them as music, I say, go for it.

Sandor and Fink are a different thing altogether. First, they do not even mention exercises. All their technical examples are related to actual pieces from the standard repertory. Both books are superb and superbly written, and I am really sorry that Sandor never produced an accompanying video. I cannot recommend these books strongly enough. In the thread you quoted, what I meant to show was that listing techniques was ultimately impossible since different authors would organise the subject in idiossincratic ways, and I used Sandor and Fink as examples of how two different authors, talking basically about the same movements and with basically the same technical philosophy could organise the subject in so totally different ways. Indeed, so different is the way they do it, that I always encourage people to read both books and treat them as complementary rather than contradictory.

So to answer your question, these three (Hanon, Czerny, Sandor/Fink) are not the same at all. Hanon is to be avoided as truly misguided . Czerny (and similar) are all right as long as you respect it as music (rather than regard it as pure exercise) and Sandor/fink are invaluable resources that cannot be recommended highly enough.

At this point, I return to the reason behind my post.  I am of course guided by the higher-level question:  How does one independently discover the correct technique to play a passage?  This with respect to the whole playing apparatus, the entire body.  My lower-level question on this thread, is: Will this learned repertory of movements help a pianist to improve?

Suppose (for a bad example, but if I'm not specific I'm sure I will be rightly accused of taking technique out of context) that I desire to learn (say) the Sixth Hungarian Rhapsody (Note: I do not play and am not learning this piece.  My question is: how can I DISCOVER how to play it? and specifically, will a study of octave playing along the lines of Fink/Sandor assist me in finding a correct way of playing it?).

I am faced with a huge number of ways to play this passage.  I must decide what use I will make of the 4th finger, what position to hold my wrist, how much wrist flexion to use, how much lower arm muscle to use, how loudly to play, how to 'release' the note, .... ad infinitum.

And also suppose that, after isolating the octave passage (in this example), I am consistently faced (say) with wrist tiredness and (eventually) tendon soreness. (I have never actually attempted this piece).  Even IF I eventually manage to work the passage up to speed, it is clear that my technique is wrong.  Not only will my playing sound "stiff", but, if I persevere, injury will result.  Further suppose that I try several ways, but fail, to alleviate this problem.

FINALLY returning to the question:  will a more 'pragmatic' teaching approach (being told how to play these octaves) such as studying the specific methods of a good teacher (in this case Fink) produce superior results to trying to discover how to play this passage from 'scratch?'  (From here it's only slightly a stretch to ask, can a teacher help with technique at all?  Mine does rarely, if ever. But that's not the question.)

Apologies for such a long question.  I'd appreciate hearing what everyone thinks.

As for this question, I think xvimbi pretty much covered it all. I will add that a lot of  piano technique comes from lateral thinking. If you are a good lateral thinker, you have a very good chance to figure it out for yourself. If you are not, you may spend years doing something that does not work. And then you may find someone who in five minutes shows you how to do it. And you feel like kicking yourself for not having figured it out yourself.

And yes, a teacher can help enormously with technique – if they are so inclined. A lot of famous teachers are also famous concert pianists. They may have acquired their technique very young. It is usually mostly at the unconscious level. They do not know how they do what they do, even though they can do it superbly. This kind of teacher is either impatient or unwilling to help in technical matters. They want to concentrate on musicality. Liszt was such a teacher. He expected you to come to his master classes having done “your dirty laundry” in his own words. There is nothing wrong with this kind of teacher, provided you already have the technique. Very often these teachers will have assistants whose job is to wash the dirty laundry with you. Beethoven didn’t have the patience to teach his nephew Karl, he sent him to Czerny instead. Claudio Arrau likewise, had assistants to work with pupils before coming to him. Other teachers thrived on technical matters – Dorothy Taubman and Abby Whiteside come immediately to mind – so it really depends on your own level.

Have a look here where I discuss this particular (teachers) subject more fully:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2450.msg21250.html#msg21250
(the four levels of teaching: Toddler, beginner, intermediate and advanced)

I suggest you ask your teacher about it. Some teachers tend not to delve into technique if the student seems to be doing fine, however when asked about it, they gladly offer guidance. The worst that can happen is that s/he will assign you Hanon .

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[AvoidedCadence]

1) Dont waste energy, and dont tense yourself or your muscels without need.
...
4) With various movements of the body you can help the fingers, but you musnt underestimate the role of the fingers.

I think learning technique should be natural. The music calls for the technique. When you try to play something difficult, you automaticly aquire the technique if you are persistent to really get it technically right. Its not enough to get it right though, you musnt use more energy than is neccessary and you must feel as confident and relaxed as possible.

Among other things, it is this which I aim for.  Now, to get there!

With these guidelines in hand, one can work out a healthy way for just about any movement. With respect to piano playing, the remainder is to connect the various types of movements and their combinations with the resulting sound and keep on refining the motions until one gets a satisfactory result. Of course, it does help a lot if one knows the inner workings of how a piano actually produces sound, but this is not strictly required. What is however necessary is a "good ear", which needs to be trained as well.

Some people who have never had formal training are quite capable of working out a good technique on their own. Talk to Ted about this. I think all that's really required is a critical mind, paying attention, making careful observations and analyzing the results. Most people nowadays don't do any of that; they are just interested in preformulated recipes that may or may not work for them. If not, they either keep doing wrong things or move on to another recipe without analyzing why the first one didn't work.

Well, all this is very much a philosophy for life in general: be critical, know your basics and you can derive anything you want from them. Be prepared to question anything and be prepared to revise any of your opinions.

Sorry for the long answer

Sorry for the long question!

But yes, that's really what I was after.  I will continue to study anatomy (I started with Thomas Mark, but I don't think that will be enough).  I would someday like to know enough about this to be able to teach it to others.

As for critical analysis and mental laziness: what you say is very true.  I should know.  There seems to be (for me, anyway) an innate tendency to say 'too many variables, too little time, and I need to have this piece learned for next week.'  Have to be more careful.

...

Sandor and Fink are a different thing altogether. First, they do not even mention exercises. All their technical examples are related to actual pieces from the standard repertory. Both books are superb and superbly written, and I am really sorry that Sandor never produced an accompanying video. I cannot recommend these books strongly enough. In the thread you quoted, what I meant to show was that listing techniques was ultimately impossible since different authors would organise the subject in idiossincratic ways, and I used Sandor and Fink as examples of how two different authors, talking basically about the same movements and with basically the same technical philosophy could organise the subject in so totally different ways. Indeed, so different is the way they do it, that I always encourage people to read both books and treat them as complementary rather than contradictory.

So to answer your question, these three (Hanon, Czerny, Sandor/Fink) are not the same at all. Hanon is to be avoided as truly misguided . Czerny (and similar) are all right as long as you respect it as music (rather than regard it as pure exercise) and Sandor/fink are invaluable resources that cannot be recommended highly enough.

As for this question, I think xvimbi pretty much covered it all. I will add that a lot of  piano technique comes from lateral thinking. If you are a good lateral thinker, you have a very good chance to figure it out for yourself. If you are not, you may spend years doing something that does not work. And then you may find someone who in five minutes shows you how to do it. And you feel like kicking yourself for not having figured it out yourself.

And yes, a teacher can help enormously with technique – if they are so inclined. A lot of famous teachers are also famous concert pianists. They may have acquired their technique very young. It is usually mostly at the unconscious level. They do not know how they do what they do, even though they can do it superbly. This kind of teacher is either impatient or unwilling to help in technical matters. They want to concentrate on musicality. Liszt was such a teacher. He expected you to come to his master classes having done “your dirty laundry” in his own words. There is nothing wrong with this kind of teacher, provided you already have the technique. Very often these teachers will have assistants whose job is to wash the dirty laundry with you. Beethoven didn’t have the patience to teach his nephew Karl, he sent him to Czerny instead. Claudio Arrau likewise, had assistants to work with pupils before coming to him. Other teachers thrived on technical matters – Dorothy Taubman and Abby Whiteside come immediately to mind – so it really depends on your own level.

You have described my teacher exactly.  "Keep relaxed and figure it out yourself."  Which is really all the advice anyone should ever need.  But unfortunately, I needed to look for a short cut.

Hence, my posting here.

Have a look here where I discuss this particular (teachers) subject more fully:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2450.msg21250.html#msg21250
(the four levels of teaching: Toddler, beginner, intermediate and advanced)

Ironically, the person who started this post was in my studio last year, before I joined.  I would say I am an 'intermediate' student with an 'advanced' teacher, in the respects outlined on that thread (I can't learn a Chopin etude in a week).  Which makes for an interesting time.

I suggest you ask your teacher about it. Some teachers tend not to delve into technique if the student seems to be doing fine, however when asked about it, they gladly offer guidance.

I've tried.  And come to the conclusion: I either need a) another teacher as you mention above or b) piano forum! 

 The worst that can happen is that s/he will assign you Hanon .

Fortunately, not too likely ...

*imagines teacher assigning Hanon*
... what a noble mind is here o'erthrown!
(my mind explodes!)

Thanks for your replies!

[xvimbi]

But yes, that's really what I was after.  I will continue to study anatomy (I started with Thomas Mark, but I don't think that will be enough).  I would someday like to know enough about this to be able to teach it to others.

Thomas Mark's book is a very good start and the best I have seen when it comes to piano playing. Beyond that you really need to dig into medical texts, such as a decent anatomy/physiology book. If you have medical students in your neighborhood, don't hesitate to bug them. Best is to get a medical student or a doctor who also plays the piano interested in figuring it all out with you. There is tons of information in the primary literature, but unless you are enrolled at a University you won't have easy access to it; and it's all pseudo-scientific gibberish anyways - I should know

[sznitzeln]

I guess you are looking for some golden words, but I doubt that many words would help your technique.
If you just keep the things in mind that I listen above, you can solve your technical problems one by one. If you dont pay attention to your relaxation level its impossible to eliminate tension.
I used to think that I was tense because my brain was too slow for the music, or that my technique was too bad, and that I could only become relaxed when I got better at these things. When I changed teacher and he saw how tense I was he said :
"You tense your mouth, you should put a mirror in front of the piano so you can see how tense you are."
And later he said "Your mouth is an obstacle in your playing!".
So I understood that my problem was the exact opposite of what I thought:
My tension was causing bad technique, and it wasnt my bad technique that caused tension. I started prioritizing relaxation over "thinking about the notes" (technique) , and then everything improved.
Just paying close attention to your body will help you.
Mental attitude is just as important. Remember that when you encounter a problem, just because it doesnt dissolve after 1 day, doesnt mean it will take long time, perhaps on the second day you get an aha-experience. Often problems that dont really take a long time to solve can seem impossible at a first glance.
So dont be afraid of problems, just enjoy them. Observe the problem in a neutral way, then one day it will dissolve.

Summary: Constatly observe your motions, your relaxation, and anything else you find important, in a neutral way. And whenever you find something that can improve, you change it. I.e. relax your mouth

[BoliverAllmon]

that just may be his golden words.

boliver

[sznitzeln]

Hehe, I hope so, but what I meant was that even if you get some good advice, the main thing is sitting at the piano and solving the problem yourself.
But guidance can be essential to get on the right track.

Have fun!   

[march05]

Err... honestly I've never met any piano-player (professional or amateur) who knows the exact anatomy of his technique. In fact, if you watch pianists in concert/dvd playing something difficult, they each play it somewhat differently (for eg, with higher/lower wrists), so I think there's probably no single anatomically correct way to play the piano...

[c18cont]

If you relax your mouth,

Keep a good lookout for flies....

John Cont

[Barbosa-piano]

          I believe that both methods combined can improve somewhat the piano playing. But I believe one truly gets the music by oneself. There are sometimes in the middle of my practice, in which I battle with the keys to acquire the passage (erroneously), before working on the music away from the keyboard (on mind). Then, out of nowhere I find the perfect position, technique, and posture for playing the music, by myself. That happens quickly, as a light that clears my mind. The bundle of notes on the sheet become simple, clear music. This happened to me in hard pieces such as Ballade No. 1 of Chopin, and other pieces by Rachmaninoff and Liszt. I rely heavily on Cnerzy and other composers of the kind for finger dexterity. Specially Gradus ed Pasarnum by Clementi. That physical effort combined to Fink's method (a more mental one) supply the basics of piano confidence while practicing and playing. But when it comes to certain passages, there is no method that will help one "get" the passage, but understanding by oneself...
                                                I hope my opinion was helpful
                                                           Mario Barbosa