Greig concerto

[fowler]

Hi there,

Am learning over a length of time the cadenza part of the first movement of this piano concerto. I was wondering what anyones views were on this part of the piece and the piece on the whole. Is it a difficult concerto to take on? I know its not as hard as the Rach3, but is it in the same league as the Rach2 for example?

I cant say I am finding the cadenza very easy to manage at all, its causing me technical issues, in particular the part when the left hand does wide spread arpeggios against the right hand octave notes with that tricky trill in the middle, I find it challenging, not the left hand but the right hand part, having trouble matching the octave notes to the trill notes, very annoying because I dont know how to think when playing it. Then a bit later on theres the passage where the hands are almost touching each other to play all them fast demi-semi quavers. Any tips?

Is the third movement the hardest, it looks an sounds so, especially all those fast scale runs with both hands. 

Do piano concertos take pianists a long time to learn or can proffesionals just play them more or less in a short space of time, and not have to worry about the technical side of the playing, just the musical side.

[viking]

 

Is it a difficult concerto to take on? I know its not as hard as the Rach3, but is it in the same league as the Rach2 for example?

Hi.  As I have never fully learned the whole concerto, I will only tell you that it is not nearly in the same league as the Rach 2 on the whole, but the third movement of greig is quite tricky and more difficult than the first movement of greig.  I'm not sure about the cadenza.  Either you could match up the notes rhythmically, or just play the trill in the right hand out of time and play the left hand arpeggios with it.  Not sure though.
SAM

[rachmaninoff_969]

Fowler,

Don't get intimidated by all of those who say things like "Grieg isn't that difficult" or "I learned Rach 2 and memorized it in one month"...the turth is that most if not all are talking out of their ass.  It even takes professional pianists a long time to learn these pieces.  Horowitz, for example, relearned the Rach 3 prior to his famous recording with Ormandy...and in conversations with David Dubal he  mentioned its great great difficulty.  A concerto is not something one can learn and play flawlessly the first time.  You really have to live with it and play it several times before you will feel entirely comfortable with it and most importantly, be pleased with your performance.

With regard to the Grieg in particular:  It is a very difficult concerto, although comparing it to the Rachmaninoff 2 (technically speaking) it is much easier.  The 3rd movement of Rach 2 takes as much time to learn as the entire Grieg concerto...take my word for it I tried the devil of a thing.  However, this does not take away from the extreme difficulties found in the Grieg concerto.  The cadenza is very difficult and the third movement, as you have said, is by far the most difficult of the three movements.  Now to classify its difficulty is a rather difficult and subjective task.  Many would argue that perfecting a Mozart concerto can be just as difficult as perfecting a Grieg concerto.  The Grieg has many more notes...and faster scale passages...bigger chords etc.  It is a Mozart concerto on steroids per se.  I guess the best way to go about learning the third movement is to learn the entire A section at a slow pace...gradually speeding it up.  The B section is not so difficult note-wise and then the A' is much of the same from the A section.  Even though there are slight differences in notes and modulations, you will have a very good hand on the rhythmic motives and even the harmonic plan.  This should allow you to learn the A' section with ease.  Then it's clear sailing...the final section with large chords is just memory work...it isn't difficult. 

Well, I hope this helps you feel better about the concerto in general.  If you learn this and play it well you are a very good pianist in my books.

- A

[fowler]

Thankyou for that reply is has put my mind at ease, because so many people say these comments on difficulty lightly, it sounds like everyone who uses this site is a world class expert pianist, nothing is difficult to them. No one has said the greig concerto is difficult, which it is, they just say things like its the easiest piano concerto etc... I think the cadenza in the greig is very difficult to say the least.

Cheers.

[steinwayguy]

Right, when people say the Grieg is "easy", I believe they are probably saying that relative to the most formidable concerti. The Grieg concerto is by no means an easy piece, but relative to a lot of other concerti, it is considered one of the easiest, and is often used as a first or second concerto among 12-18 year olds.

[lostinidlewonder]

Is it a difficult concerto to take on?.... is it in the same league as the Rach2 for example?

It is a much easier concerto to take on than most simply because it can be played by small hands. You won't find anything that really contorts the hands, almost everything is very general in chords and finger routine. Rachmaninov is a different story, Rach 2 would squash this in difficulty and power/passion required for the expression.

Do piano concertos take pianists a long time to learn or can proffesionals just play them more or less in a short space of time, and not have to worry about the technical side of the playing, just the musical side.

Although I personally chose NOT to become a concerto peformer, rather a soloist, I did take the concerto peformer path for a little while. You can often study lots of concerto's yourself, but if you would be allowed to peform that with an orchestra is a another question. I was told 2 weeks before a peformance to get a Mozart Piano Concerto studied for peformance. So I had to brush that up within a very restricted time period. Where I would be much happier doing a Chopin Concerto, something which I studied a lot more, I am forced to do what the orchestra wants and what has been selected by the organisers.

Your approach to concertos has to be different to how you do piano solos. You really do need to practice it with a second piano, or an orchestral recording without the solo part playing (you can actually order those from good music stores).

You have to be able to see the entire score at the same time. That means sticking the entire thing up on a wall and use color to section it up, using similar colors for similar parts etc. That is the only way I could memorise a lot in a short space of time, and it was the only way I could, in a very fast time, connect parts of the music intimiately with my emotion. If you can't help but look at something every day for 2 or so weeks, you start seeing things you didn't notice at first. Whether that be a pattern which leads to a revelation in the expression.

Still I find concerto peformers are very brave. Especially those which peform the concerto's from sheet music! My teacher was told to play a concerto a day before it had to be done, so he said sure thing, got me to help him on the second piano for a few hours before hand and then he was on stage playing it in front of a few thousand people with the sheets! Daring stuff. I am not cut out for that personally!

[Barbosa-piano]

   I would say this piece is quite hard, I've not yet played it completely, only some parts of it. It can be intimidating, but you should not feel that way. The best way to do it is to manage the technical parts carefully, with different speeds and working each measure alone. It's a wonderful piece, and it contains the example of how Grieg mixtured the Norwegian style of composition with technique and his ideas. The first time I heard a live performance of the first and third movements in Baylor University, the pianist that played the first movement had trouble with the passage with the chromatic descending thirds, and the pianist that played the third movement had a memory problem, she stoped on the middle of the performance, and shaking she stood up, and looked at the score for about 3 times. That's why everything should be worked out carefully and very well rehearsed to avoid future problems.

                     Mario Barbosa

[penguinlover]

I am also learning the Grieg's Piano Concerto.  I will never perform it, I am not a concert pianist.  But I do feel that this is one of the greatest pieces of music ever written.  I am way past my prime in life, and now that all my kids are out of the house, I am practicing again more seriously.  I would also like some technical tips on how to play this piece.  I am taking it one measure at a time.  If I learn one page a year, maybe I will get it learned before I die.  That's just how much I love the piece.  Anyway, I chose to get back to the basics and strengthen my hands.  Grieg's hands must have been HUGE!  Mine aren't. 

I would love to have any input on this. I don't have a teacher, at this level, lessons would be out of reach for me financially.  I noticed your first post was last summer.  YOu have probably learned the piece by now.  How are you doing on it?

[pianolist]

If it's any consolation, Grieg himself was no expert at his own Concerto. He regarded Percy Grainger as being the best around, and observed that if he, Grieg, could play his own Concerto properly, then the way Grainger did it was the way he would have chosen. I don't suppose I have the words exactly right, but you get the general drift.

Grainger made piano rolls of the Concerto, and it's possible to accompany them with a live orchestra, but they were originally issued for domestic use, with an orchestral piano part added, and he takes great liberties with the tempi, which makes it very difficult for the poor conductor!

Oh, and by the way. Grieg's family came originally from Scotland, and the name was therefore Greig, as in David Greig, the provision merchants that those over fifty may remember in Britain. So his ancestry must take part of the blame for the fact that his name is so often misspelt!

[zheer]

I dont think its an easy concerto, haw many people do you know that can play this concerto, and i bet non can play it as well as Samson Francois.

[pianistimo]

despite this thread starting may 2005, i am assuming that there is a reason it was bumped by penguinlover.  btw, pingu is my fav. show (penguins,ya know).  i never thought it sounded easy!  far from it.

from 'a history of the piano concerto' "written during the summer of 1868 at a vacation cottage near copenhagen, this concerto was one of the first works grieg composed after being introduced to norwegian folk music in 1865 by the norwegian composer rikard nordraak.  although it does not use folk tunes, the rhythms of norwegian dances, the halling and the springdans, appear in the finale.  a melodic gesture in the opening of the third movement, the descending second followed by a descending third, is a melodic cliche in grieg's music, with folk-music roots."

"the piano concerto is very clearly modeled upon schumann's in the same key and shares with it a similar striking piano opening followed by a lyrical idea presented by the orchestra and then repeated by the piano.  some of the virtuosic writing seems close to liszt's; this is especially so in the rapid octave and arpeggio passages and in the low rumbling passage of the cadenza of the first movement.  chopin's style is also evident, particularly in the nocturne- like treatment of the first movement's second theme (tranquillo e cantabile) in the piano.  chopin was grieg's favorite composer, so it must have pleased him when the success of this concerto led some critics to refer to the norwegian as "the chopin of the north."  (grieg started a second piano concerto in b minor in 1883, but never completed it).

[penguinlover]

Being a newcomer on the block, I didn't realize that this topic was so "talked about".  I didn't mean to open up something you all wanted closed.  I do love penguins, have thousands of them all over the house (not live ones).  Anyway, after reading all of the posts, I get the feeling that many musicians don't like this concerto.  Most of you are probably much better pianists than I , and I feel like a child asking these questions.  But, I need to know how to practice this thing before I get into awful habits.  I know the standard stuff, go slow etc.  I look up fingerings from the Czerny excersises.  Maybe it doesn't matter which hand plays what, but it would sure be a help to me to know I am not butchering the piece I love so much!

[alwaystheangel]

I think people are neurotic when they say that Grieg is an easy piece.  My piano teacher took a great dedal of time learning it and she told me it was hard and I now realize how hard it is when I decided not to take heed and decided to learn it anyway. Due to the sheer number of people on this forum.  Most have to be lying about how great they are.  Or sorry if this ticks someone off.  Fudged it a little would be a better way of putting it.  GRIEG's concerto is hard.  There's no two ways about it.  I love it though. It's an incredible piece worth learning.  So good luck don't pull out too much hair!

[penguinlover]

Thanks for the reply.  I am enjoying the work on the concerto, and I love the piece more than anything else I have every played (or in this instance, played at).

[pianistimo]

glad you bumped it actually.  i agree too, that it even sounds difficult to play smoothly and have the right 'inflections' in certain places (just like playing chopin).  hope that you find a teacher to help smooth out the bumps.  it is well worth even just one long lesson with a professional pianist.  piano concertos are in a league of their own (and usually fairly more needful of careful attention to form, etc.)  also, getting a referral of a good recording is nice!  have decided not to rule out this useful form of listening to gain insight.

music libraries are fantastic.  i've been to several where the music is ALREADY fingered.  especially the piano concertos.  sometimes even markings in the score. 

[penguinlover]

Thanks for the info.  Maybe I will seek out a teacher.  I live in an area that is far away from any pros like that, but maybe someone around here can help.  Salaam (that means peace doesn't it?)

[pianistimo]

oops.  did i mispell it?  i was attempting to speak 'foreign' talk back to zheer.  i know shalom means peace - and was hoping this was arabic for peace.  maybe it means 'have a cigarette.'  if everyone played the piano - there wouldn't be war would there?  i've never seen or heard of a pianist killing another pianist (maybe a violinist? or vocalist?).  of course, i haven't watched all the competitions.  what is the worst thing a pianist ever did to another?  (steal his/her music?) i don't recall anything like the skating finals with nancy kerrigan getting tripped.   

[penguinlover]

Oh, I don't know how to spell it, I'm not Jewish.  Things are pretty messy there, that's why I stay here.   Travel is overrated.  The worst thing I ever did to another pianist was purely accidental.  I was turning pages for my teacher while she accompanied a professional cellist (?).  Well, the pages weren't the same size and they were handwritten, and I had never seen the music before.  You get the picture.  I turned a page about half way through the concert, and there went the music - on the floor.  The cello went on without the piano.  Needless to say, the concert had to stop. How embarrasing!  But no, we don't usually shoot our wounded.

[pianistimo]

shoot our wounded.  that's too funny!

[penguinlover]

Yeah, just a phrase from a wounded soldier.