Pedalling over staccatos?

[Ade]

Hello All,

I'm new to this forum and fairly new to the piano. I've been playing just over a year after playing guitar for about 25 years, I'm 35 now. I'm happy with my progress and for the last week or so I've been learning the 3rd movement, Allegretto, of Betthoven's piano sonata No. 17 in D minor, Op. 31, No. 2, "Tempest". I've learnt up to the first repeat and can play up to speed but as yet without any pedalling. Now I'm at the point where I want to add pedalling I'm unsure about when to use it. Pedalling seems like a bit of a black art so I thought it would be a good idea to listen to a performance of the piece to give me some ideas. The recording I've got is the NAXOS recording by Jeno Jando (sp?).

Listening to the piece it sounds like Jeno puts the pedal down on the first beat of each bar holds it down and releases on the last beat of the bar, I'm only referring to the opening theme here. If I adopt this pedalling then the piece does sound the way I'm use to hearing it and the way I like it. But being fairly new to the piano this has confused me a little. I know the basic principle of using the pedal, or at least I thought I did, but in this particular case the first note of each bar played by the left hand, D,  is marked as staccato. So my question is this; is it valid to hold the pedal down for a note marked as staccato and in effect just emphasise the note not shorten it?

Any help/advice/guidance would be very much appreciated.

[Ade]

Sorry I meant the right hand in the post above:

I know the basic principle of using the pedal, or at least I thought I did, but in this particular case the first note of each bar played by the right hand, D,  is marked as staccato.

[pskim]

which edition are you using?  Depending on what edition you use there are pedal markings that Beethoven himself wrote out so that you can get that kind of "muddy" effect.  And yes, there is a technique where you pedal over the staccato and there is quite a difference between dry staccato and pedaled staccato.  When you are playing this, be faithful to Beethoven's pedal marking.  Also you have to take it into account that his piano and the modern piano was very different and the sound died out much sooner than the modern piano does.  

Yes, pedaling is an art of it's own and you need lots of practice.  I tell my students when they are learning a new piece, learn to pedal at the same time they are learning the notes because it will take 2 or 3 times as much time to learn to pedal after you have learned the notes.

[Davek]

" it will take 2 or 3 times as much time to learn to pedal after you have learned the notes. "

so true, i'm learning the chopin ballade in gminor, and i have the notes but you HAVE to be very careful about using the pedal and that is like one of the hardest things about this peice, and in my henle edition of it, you pedal over notes that have the staccato marking.

dking

[Aurelio]

I disagree with the idea of learning  the pedal and the notes at the same time.

Perhaps it depends on each person but I think it is a basic principle of pedagogy the idea of breaking down  into separate components any complex task, because if you master each component you will can master the whole.

It is the same when studying a dificult section hands separate, so my recommendation is learning the pedal and the notes at the same time only when it results easy. (It is not the case in Beethoven sonates...)

But it's only one more opinion...

[Ade]

Hello pskim,

Thanks for your help. The edition I'm using is the ABRSM (Associated Board) Complete Beethoven Sonatas in 3 volumes. I've also downloaded a version from https://www.sheetmusicarchive.net just to see if there was any pedalling marked on it. With the ABRSM edition there is pedal markings on some of the pieces including the 1st movement of the Tempest but not on the 3rd movement. With this being an ABRSM edition I assumed that any pedal marks were added by Beethoven, so with no pedal marks appearing on the 3rd movement I assumed that Beethoven never specified his suggestion for pedalling. I'd be very interested to see an edition with Beethoven's pedalling indicated for the 3rd movement. Is it available for download or just in print?

With regard to learning pedalling at the same time, for me it depends on the piece. For some pieces, including this particular piece, where the fingering and phrasing are bit alien to me I do find it easier and quicker in the long run to isolate the fingering and pedalling. I guess as I get more experienced they'll be less and less instances where I need to isolate the hands and feet.