Made some new recordings of some of my compositions!!!! please listen :)

[NoamKrief]

https://www.henselt.org/compositions/rhapsodie.mp3
https://www.henselt.org/compositions/impromptu_1.mp3
https://www.henselt.org/compositions/impromptu_3.mp3
https://www.henselt.org/compositions/valse.mp3
https://www.henselt.org/compositions/His_Tears.mp3

It's not the best piano - Yamaha but it's grand and used an okay Microphone.. Better than the 15 dollar one i use to use on my upright piano...

I recorded on my laptop...

Let me know what you guys think....

Noam

[sonatainfsharp]

How long have you been composing? How old are you? How many pieces do you have in your catalogue?

These pieces are fine, however they are all very unoriginal and very similar to each other. Perhaps there are other pieces you could share that would give a better peek into your diversity of compositional capabilities? Or are they all pretty much the same? I, too, like to compose in a Romantic style, but there are certain elements one must investigate to get their own sound.

I notice that they are all similar in that they all feature a rather busy accomp pattern while the upper register carries the melody all the time.  Also, the harmonic patterns are extremely predictable--you don't always have to end phrases on I or V--there were a few secondary dominants, I know, but even those become predicatble after a few modulations.

One thing I would strongly suggest is investigating *counterpoint.* Another idea would be to have more layers of lines; look at the middle section of Rachy's g minor Prelude-- dual melodies in the upper register, standard arpeggiated accomp in the l.h. with a third counter melody in the middle covered by both hands.

Also, investigate different types of *modualtions.* You can even come up with your own unique modulations and still have the music feel Romantic--Beethoven has his own modulations while keeping a Classical sound, for example.

Third, think about *tonality.* You can use modes and other altered keys without sounding atonal or too contemporary. Use more non-harmonic tones on strong beats, rather than as passing tones. You can have a g minor arpeggio going while leaning on an A natural in the melody as a long note, for example. Also, you can vary your harmonic rhythm.

Of course this is all opinion, but after spending so many years studying in a very formal setting, there are certain elements you look for that are really more objective than subjective.

Thank you for sharing your work, and I look forward to seeing how you progress as your composing matures.

Ahhh! I love teaching!!!!

(As for myself, once I figure out how to make digital copies of my own music, I will be happy to share my own things, but technolgy has changed so much in the past 8 years that I haven't been able to keep up.)

[Daevren]

Nice suggestions. I will listen to this tomorrow and add my comments. I am too tired now.

SonataInfSharp, could you give me some perspective on my incomplete concerto in F sharp ( )

Let me first say I want to extend the introductioary tutti part and the virtuoso piano introduction part. The ending arpeggio section should be the end of the first movement. I need to put something inbetween that part and the part before that. Something carried by the piano with the orchestra following.

Click.

I kind of lose perspective on my own work. If you could help me point out the strong and weak points, the stuff that points out and the stuff that is missing that would be very helpful. BTW, this is a digital reproduction of the score created by Finale.

Sorry for kind of hijacking your thread NoamKrief, I will be sure to post my comments later.

[Daevren]

Well, because I was so rude I forced myself to listen.

Firstly I was suprised how mature it sounded. The music is very basic, but very sturdy. Nice melodies.

My suggestions would be:

- Keep in mind classical music is about structure. You have to tell a story, you need a plot. You need a beginning and an end and a journey from the beginning to the ending. And in the journey stuff needs to happen.

-It sounds like you write music on the instrument. I don't. This has advantages and disadvantages. One is that your music often employs the most obvious 'solotution'. You need to do some 'strange' things. You need to add an edge.

-You need a harmonic design. Like in an A B A piece. Have section one modulate to the dominant. Have section B start in the dominant modulation to even more distant keys but have it end on the tonic chord. Then finish the piece in the tonic key in the second part A. This way you have a polarisation, a plot.

- All your music seems to be melody in the right hand and accompining arppegios in the left hand. Try something different. This is not easy, of course. Look at different compositions and just steal those concepts.

[NoamKrief]

thanks for the feedback.

Let me ask a question. When someone writes a novel, do you tell them they have to stick to an A-B-A-C-A formation??

I'm 23. I have many more peices. There are just the ones that I managed to record.

I don't mind "not being original". I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. I like new melodies and new chord progessions. I think that what makes some music beautiful is that the listener can predict the next chord progression. Once in a while, it's nice to throw them off

If I waned to be original, and constantly make unpredictable melodies and chrod progressions, I'd compose Jazz which would probably take me about 30 minutes to compose a 25 minute peice!

I published on this forum 4 peices. Do you know how many of Chopin's 170 compositions have the right hand on the melody and is composed of chord progressions if you really look into it? Probably 90%.

All music - except Jazz maybe, can be in the end broken down into chrod progressions.
I like my melody up high on the right hand. I don't like bass. I don't like the melody to be down low.

It's my preferance. My ideal form of beauty in music is what I compose. I write it that way because that what I like music to sound like.

[thierry13]

They are all pretty good, but my favorite is your third impromptu!

[Daevren]

thanks for the feedback.

Let me ask a question. When someone writes a novel, do you tell them they have to stick to an A-B-A-C-A formation??

No, you missed the point.  Like the middle part of a story can never be the ending the middle part of a well structured composition can also not be the ending.

It doesn't have to do with repeating stuff or cutting it into blocks. It has more to do with harmony. Like the book needs a plot, music needs a harmonic plot. At least from my point of views.

If I waned to be original, and constantly make unpredictable melodies and chrod progressions, I'd compose Jazz which would probably take me about 30 minutes to compose a 25 minute peice!

Really it takes me hours to write a few minutes of music... I am not saying you are doing something wrong.

You say you don't like the melody in the bass/left hand. Well, most people don't. But the good thing is, you can use that quality in your music. Your whole piece doesn't need to be perfect. If halfway you switch melody to the left hand and chords to the right you have a nice variation that has some imperfect thing about it. It should be the other way around. Thus it is imperfect. Thus it is a good piece of music to move out to towards the ending.

I am not attacking you, you asked for suggestions. So you get them

Do you know how many of Chopin's 170 compositions have the right hand on the melody and is composed of chord progressions if you really look into it? Probably 90%.

I think this is one of the biggest points of critique people have on Chopin.

All music - except Jazz maybe, can be in the end broken down into chrod progressions.

Not really true. But that doesn't matter.

Point is, the middle part of the music shouldn't be the 'ideal form of beauty in music'. If it is there is no point in going towards the ending. All composers know this, even Chopin. I really thing considering SonataInfSharp and mine suggestions will make you a better. Really, I think you have potential to write great music.

[NoamKrief]

thanks for your reply

We would just have to disagree on the middle part having to not be "perfet"

There is this very famous polonaise (heroic?) by chopin. The middle part is like 3 minutes long with decending octives.

I think that part is a waist of notes. Waist of chopin's time, and waist of the listener's time.
Maybe I'm too critical

Noam

[Daevren]

What music do you listen? Maybe it starts with expanding your musical horizons.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

There is this very famous polonaise (heroic?) by chopin. The middle part is like 3 minutes long with decending octives.

I think that part is a waist of notes. Waist of chopin's time, and waist of the listener's time.
Maybe I'm too critical

I'm afraid I feel that way about 99% of that Polonaise.

By the way, I do like your compositions overall. However, I have to agree with what has been said. Maybe you should try rewriting these pieces, following the suggestions, and see if you like it better. Then post another recording, and see if WE like it better. Though what YOU think is more important (being the composer), and much of what has been said is personal taste, you might find that, by following the suggestions, you yourself will like the result.

Give it a try.

[rachmaninoff_969]

These pieces are fun to listen to, and I imagine quite fun to play.  Compositionally speaking, there are some very clever ideas, particularly in the impromptu...but I feel as though I am drifting back in time.  What you have composed are pieces right out of the mid-late 19th century...which are in many respect inferior to those composed by the great writers of the time.  The pieces remind me of a second rate composer from the era.  Nonetheless, if it gives you satisfaction to write in styles that died a long time ago...cudos to you.

I must say, you did point out that your intention was not to be original...and in this you have succeeded.  So, it seems as though these are just trifles for your own amusement...and this being your purpose, you have also succeeded.  On the concert stage tonal music is not dead...but in the world of classical composition is most certainly is when used in conjunction with old and overused forms.  There are many composers who compose tonal classical pieces today, but they approach the question of tonality in a very different and unique manner. 

Regardless, keep up the good work, and most importantly have fun.

- A

[rachmaninoff_969]

P.S.

I don't know if it matters to you...but there are several voice leading errors...and one really ugly parallel 5th in the rhapsodie3...but don't worry there are even parallels in Beethoven and Bach (ie. Waldstein sonata and Bach's 2nd prelude and fugue from the first book)...and many more

[crazy_diamond]

I've read some of the replies, they got a lot of what I feel about you compositions so I won't repeat what people said.

You really does seem to have the talent to compose, however there is fear in your music, and not the good one. It seems to me a bit, like once you find your motive, you're affraid to let go of it, maybe afraid to lose it? As for the motives, well, they are trying to go with this certain mode, that have just been wriiten way too much times before. Like, youre trying to make it catchy for yourself right the first time you hear it. The texture has a meaning in the piece too, it is obvious that you are very affected from the chopin's way of writing in the main motives of most nocturnes.

Imagine what music Chopin would have written if he had listened to Beethoven all day long, and no polish music - we would have just too many piano sonatas, going the same direction. It is impposible to create truely original music, and have it all catchy right after hearing it. It takes time to understand the new mode, and to gain love for it, but it happens. The people that are remmembered the people that make turning points, and define new styles are subversive. People said at Mozart at his time, that his melodies are just way too complicated... MOZART! ( Tam da ta ta dadi da! "Sonata I" (-: ). I don't really think you can create something out of nothing... you've just got to explore in many ways, such as comboing different things. With time you may find yourself totaly in love, with something that none have done before. The original music of yourself.


I'm so high... (:

Good Luck!

[g_flat]

Well, this post is coming strictly from a piano student who occasionally dabbles in composition. I must say I am very pleased with what I hear. You obviously have an exception talent for composition and although these may neither be original nor contemporary, they show that you have a clear understanding of the elements of composition.

I thought it was interesting when someone above mentioned that you sound like a second-rate composer from the romantic era. This is an internet forum devoted to people with similar interests. That's all. Why should we expect that every member of the piano forum be anything more than a second rate composer? I understand criticizing his work. That's practically what he asked of us when he decided to open it up to the public, but it makes no sense criticizing him because he isn't Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Chopin, or any other of the masters.

Also, I understand making suggestions as to what he can do to improve his music, but a lot of the suggestions above seem like the forum members are basically asking NoamKrief to write their music as opposed to his own. This is not to say that many of the suggestions above aren't sensible and completely legitimate. It's just that he is writing what he feels is his voice, whether original or not, and telling him to introduce atonality into his music may not be the route he wishes to travel.

With that said, I really did enjoy the peices. But no, you are not a master and at this point no one is going to remember your name hundreds of years from now. Is this surprising? No. Also, as mentioned above, maybe you could experiment more. I encourage you to keep composing because you truly do have the talent for it.

[NoamKrief]

Thanks G_FLAT for understanding.
If someone composed some modern music that I did not personally like, I might also be inclined to advise that composer to try to get more into the contermoraty style of music and chord progressions.
You are right. That A-tonal stuff does not appeal to me. I know how it sounds, I don't like it therefore I don't use it.

Sure my compositions might sound like chopin (even though I'm not too fond of his music) but also Lizst's music, schumann etc also sounded alike. Does that mean that schumann was not original?

I love the style of that era and I'm not trying to come up with a new style nor reinvent the wheel.
Not that I'm trying to copy chopin, but my compositions are like "what if chopin lived another 3 years - what would he have composed that we never had a chance to hear?"

I know my compositions are 2nd rate and I don't mind. I'm not trying to be remembered for the next 100 years through my music that I write.

I don't know if schubert wrote for fame and glory but I know for sure that I got none. Not untill after he was dead.

Also, imagine if Chopin did not ever write impromtu #3 or one of the lesser known polonaise and one of the ordinary nocturnes...

If I would have wrote them and put it on the forum, what would people say?
I doubt they would jump out of their seats.  It's Chopin's volume and consistency that makes him what he is.
He wrote a lot of music, and most of it is pretty good. For that he is remembered. Chopin didn't invent anything new either. If you look at schubert, you'd find that chopin copied schubert which came before chopin many times.
New patterns here and there does not make him an inventor of great music.
He had good taste of what sounds good most of the time - for that he is deservant of all credit...

I am new to composing. No formal training whatsoever. No music theory so I can't anylize my own writing and music theory behind them. You are 100% correct G_FLAT. When I find a nice pattern and tune I like, I tend to stick with it throughout the entire peice. I'm scared to branch off in the same peice because I'm afraid I won't be able to get back to it

Would you guys care if I post some more music?

[rob47]

Allow me to be the huge d***

clearly you have no formal training or lessons in composition (maybe you have taken harmony/analysis exams to go with piano exams), you write what you think sounds good in your head.  I do that to, see my comp. in the audition room.  But you definietly want to compose beautiful melodius stuff, and the problem is without a complete understnading of what you're doing it's just stale s***.  I am by no means a composer, I just have played piano my whole life and know how to 'fake' compose pieces, again see my compostion. And I'm sure you'll argue, many would, that because it's an expression of self it makes it a good meaningful composition....sorry taht's bullshit that's what popstars say about they're stupid 'songs' 'pieces'.   In you're impromptu3 for example, your in dminor for hte longest time, thatn you do some chopinesqe stuff for a while, and go back to dminro. sure it an impromptu but it just shows monotony

Sorry for being a dick, don't worry i can't compose any better.

[rob47]

again sorry for the harshness. 

don't go into Rachmaninoff depression: unless you intened to come out of it with brilliant works that make me feel like an idiot.
 

[edit] your pieces do instill emtion in the listenner though.  The educated listener just may think differently.  But that's like 1 in 100.

[NoamKrief]

hahaha i love it
Maybe I'll go to hypnosis like rachmaninoff
Perhaps that's my answer to my troubles

Noam

[rob47]

SHIIIIIIIIIIT!!!!!

noam im really sorry i didn't even get to the post you wrote just before mine.  It explains a lot....i must sound like a way bigger dick than i intented too.

yes keep composing!!!!!!!! post more.

sorry.

[dinosaurtales]

Boy you guys have me scared off!  I have started dabbling in composition, too, through theory class, but now there's NO WAY I'd post them on this forum!  Geez!  No slack for beginners, I see!      

I sympathize Naom. 

[ted]

Oh dear ! Well, I'm afraid I have to say that I like them very much. The waltz and the tears one didn't grab me but I found the first impromptu in particular very transporting. Put it this way, I keep a large directory of downloads from here and elsewhere and clear it out every now and then. A couple of yours will stay there because I want to hear them again.

[rob47]

Boy you guys have me scared off!  I have started dabbling in composition, too, through theory class, but now there's NO WAY I'd post them on this forum!

Good.  I don't want to me mean again.

[Derek]

I really like your compositions Noamkrief.

By the way I completely agree with you about originality. I think there needs to be a distinction in everyone's mind about what true originality is.  Nobody is going to change the physical laws of the universe that will make a major third sound different than it does. Since this is true, all music is going to have something in it that can be found somewhere else (harmonically speaking).

What aspects of music do our minds really have control over? Melody and rhythm. The number of possible melodies and rhythms are mind bogglingly vast. Even in the context of the 19th Century style, there are trillions of possible compositions, possible GOOD compositions, that have not been written yet.  Simply because there were a handful of truly outstanding composers in the 19th century should be NO reason not to continue composing in those styles!

It seems to me everyone who composes, in ANY style, will automatically, just by virtue of the vastness of melody and rhythm, have their own personal voice or stamp. The more styles and musical ideas you absorb, however, the more pronounced your personal voice will become.

[rob47]

All I was saying, before I realized Noam stated he didn't take any classes specifically for comp.,that it's a gerenally weak composition (impromptu3). Sure there's a good tune going, but one should compose a good theme, which can be modulated invereted and everythng, it then becomes more original and more personal and more effective. Read Leonard Bernstein "The Infinite Variety of Music", he talks about just this.

[NoamKrief]

here is a prelude I wrote in 30 minutes. It's not much I put my notes in midi because I can't play these.... (yet)
https://www.henselt.org/compositions/prelude.mid

Also impromptu no.4
https://www.henselt.org/compositions/impromptu_4.mid

And a simple ballade (too hard for me to play without mistakes)
https://www.henselt.org/compositions/ballade.mid

PS - keep in mind they never sound as good in midi format...

[pianist_joe_bloggs]

Hi,

I might end up sounding very arrogant in this post, but me having a pregnant dog at anyone in particular, but masy i just say that many of you are UNBELIEVABLY negative. I listened to the compositions and i think they're fabulous. They are right in with late romantic style, but they remain so fresh and MODERN - a contradiction i know. But it angers me when i read such reviews as i do. This music contains all the elements of a good composition, and more, and people just seem to sh*t on it! And before anyone starts going off on one at me, saying i kno nothing - i am a composer, and at my age i would consider myself rather successful. I've been asked to perform my own works in concerts, i've been asked to write works for groups - i'm soon to be playing a piano concerto in concert soon (composed by me). I've had interest off some top orchestra's in my home country (england), so i think its safe to say i know a good composition when i hear it. Perhaps some of you could try being a little more supportive. When i started composing, it was negative, derogatory comments that put me off, and they came form people like you! NoamKrief - these compositions are fabulous - keep going. i think they're fresh, original, but still in line with other compositions from the romantic era. everyone else - be a little nicer in life - it'll get you furthar!!

[NoamKrief]

thanks for your reply Joe. It was so meanningful to me to read what you had to say and so encouraging

I'm just so thrilled that someone at your level and experience likes the compositiongs I have written.

I took lessons when i was little and quit when i was 10 years old. Then at 14 I tought myself how to play again and classical music has really spoken to my heart but it never filled me so I started composing.

I don't know anyone personally who plays piano or really understand classical so the only feedback I could ever get is through this forum.

I write the music for myself. Every peice of music tells a story of how I felt at the current moment... I just felt like sharing it - as sharing my feelings, but not in words - if that makes any sense

Noam Krief

[g_flat]

Boy you guys have me scared off! I have started dabbling in composition, too, through theory class, but now there's NO WAY I'd post them on this forum! Geez! No slack for beginners, I see!

See, this is the problem with your hyper-criticism. This is a forum meant for both the seasoned professional and beginner alike. I'm not saying that we should avoid criticism at all costs. I mean, that is practically what Noam Krief asked us to do when he put his compositions out on exhibition. But it seems that criticism should be a means of encouragement, constructive criticism if you will, and a lot of what i see above is somewhat discouraging (desctructive criticism). Look above, we've already discouraged Dinosaur Tales.

Now, no these compositions are not absolutely stunning. It's true. But to deny that these compositions exhibit considerable skill and very good understanding of the elements of composition is, in all honesty, ignorance. I think Joe Bloggs pretty much said it all when it comes to that subject.

Anyway, criticize, criticize, criticize. That is what makes a good musician better, whether composer, performer, or other. But is discouragement really a sensible goal of criticism? I think not.

[pianist_joe_bloggs]

could you e-mail me the score of the rhapsodie please. i love it so much, i want to play it myself (with your permission of course).

my e-mail is         joe_bloggs666@hotmail.com

add me to msn messenger if you have it.

[NoamKrief]

I sent that off to you joe.