Bach Prelude No.2 from WTC1

[fuel925]

I'd really like to learn this piece, but I dont want to rush into things when im really not sure on the fingering. I don't want to have to wait til my next lesson to ask my teacher, so if anyone knows any good fingering techniques for this piece, please let me know

[sznitzeln]

It is wise that you dont want to rush. That is always a good maxim.
Especially in this piece, since it can vastly improve your technique. Even if it takes a lot of time its worth every second spent on it

https://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/
There you will find some fingerings, but you have to change them a bit.

By the way, since your teacher is going to give you fingerings soon, you can start practice "without" fingering.
That is, you can play slowly with any fingering, without focusing on any sections, thereby starting to memorise the sound and the notes, but NOT the fingering.
By fingering I mean rather the muscular memory than the knowledge of what fingers to use on each note.

Also read about the prelude here, that should also take some time. Try to understand or memorise the harmonies in the piece, that should also take some time, so you will have lots of things to do untill your next lesson.

[dorfmouse]

I'm working on the first 3 lines and the presto section so far; maybe it'll help you get going. 

I thought I might get away with straightforward fingering but was quickly disabused of that idea by He Who Must Be Obeyed.

First 3 bars the "obvious" fingering;

RH  |5213 1312 5213 1312 | 5323 1323 5323 1323 | 5323 1323 5323 1312

Bar 4 |5213 2313 5213 2321 |
Bar 5  |5213 2312 5213 5213 2312 | (I feel like doing 4 instead of the 3s but T says not so good)
Bar 6 |5213 1312 5213 1312 |
Bar 7 |5123 1321 5123 1321 |
Bar 8 |5213 1312 5213 1312 |

Presto so far;

323 4213 1323 4213 | 1323 4213 2313 4123 | 1 ...and so on in a similar vein.

I'm sure there are endless permutations but these seem to work well at speed. T recommends keeping fingers close to keys and fairly well in, ie not slipping towards the edge of the keys.

I seem to remember Bernhard has posted a suggested plan for learning this piece somewhere.

[sznitzeln]

That fingering is not obvious, my fingering differs from the first bar:

RH: 5212 1212

The disadvantage is the use of only 2 fingers, the advantage is that you dont have to change handposition 4 times in a bar. This was suggested by some editor (no proof that its wise)

And I guess it will differ in many other places.

[gkatele]

I thought I might get away with straightforward fingering but was quickly disabused of that idea by He Who Must Be Obeyed.

First 3 bars the "obvious" fingering;

RH  |5213 1312 5213 1312 | 5323 1323 5323 1323 | 5323 1323 5323 1312

rest of post respectfully snipped....

This is a devilish piece for me. I've been working on it for a long time, and the presto section, when it's presto, is almost never accurate. I assume it's the fingering that I've been using, and I appreicate alternatives to look at.

At least one edition (I think it's the Henle) recommends crossing 2 over the the thumb in parts of it. I've tried it, and it seems awkward and slows me down.

Let us know how it goes.


George

[solitudewithin]

That fingering is not obvious, my fingering differs from the first bar:

RH: 5212 1212

The disadvantage is the use of only 2 fingers, the advantage is that you dont have to change handposition 4 times in a bar. This was suggested by some editor (no proof that its wise)

And I guess it will differ in many other places.

Indeed, i have the same edition with 5212 1212 fingerings but it worked for me!
The fingerings that i took care of before i learned the piece are those of the Presto part. Be sure to check them!

[shoshin]

That fingering is not obvious, my fingering differs from the first bar:

RH: 5212 1212

The disadvantage is the use of only 2 fingers, the advantage is that you dont have to change handposition 4 times in a bar. This was suggested by some editor (no proof that its wise)

And I guess it will differ in many other places.

I've tried both positions for the first bar and they both seem okay to me. But I dont agree with your reason: "the advantage is that you dont have to change handposition 4 times in a bar".
Either fingering you will have to move your hand position laterally or your thumb will be doing a crazy bending movement instead of being right over the key and using a basic up and down motion.  That being said I like the 5 2 1 3 1 3 1 2 way.

[DISCLAIMER: I am a beginner student not a teacher]

[dorfmouse]

I think the reason for doing 5213 1312 is that it brings your hand into a nice relaxed position over the keys, at least briefly.  It gets your arm moving in a rhythmic way, enabling your thumb to come down on the C nice and solidly. (I did try using the 2 initially, it felt ok but my fingers seem to look as if they're hovering in a semi stretched position.)

At least one edition (I think it's the Henle) recommends crossing 2 over the the thumb in parts of it. I've tried it, and it seems awkward and slows me down

Do you mean like in bars 4 and 7 in my example?

Bar 4 |5213 2313 5213 2321 |
Bar 5  |5213 2312 5213 5213 2312 | (I feel like doing 4 instead of the 3s but T says not so good)
Bar 6 |5213 1312 5213 1312 |
Bar 7 |5123 1321 5123 1321 |
Bar 8 |5213 1312 5213 1312 |

I thought my teacher was being unneccessarily complicated at first using 2.  I'd been trying a simple 5323 1 in these positions, but then there's quite a stretch from 5-3.  As I watched  I noticed how his second finger would very rapidly shoot out and across. It looks funny but actually involves no effort, feels comfortable and you don't have to twist or turn anything. He Who Must be Obeyed is usually right!

This piece is a real object lesson in getting movements right. Now I remember why I always gave up when I tried to learn it on my own before!

Any more suggestions welcome .... let's see if we can get beyond bar 7

[lostinidlewonder]

In RH, 5212 1212 is far superior to 5213 1312 imo.

When you play this one should aim to maintain the top note (in RH) and the low note (in LH). Using the other fingering moves the hand too much, where as using predominantly RH 5212 1212 limits this.

Also one should aim to pay respect to four beats per bar. We respect it by giving it a slight accent. So (5)212 (1)212 (5)212 (1)212 etc in RH for first bar. Where brackets are the slight accents. This will provide a standard form and feeling for the natural beat encouraged by the notes.

The presto section again it would be important to pay respect to the beat. After the deep G octaves in the LH, every 4th note you play in the RH should encourage a slight accent.

This is not written, but it can aid in the control of what you are playing and once you get the feeling for the slight accented notes in the big group of notes in the RH you can generate quite a lot of speed naturally from it, rather than playing it all as one big body of sound.

In that case i would use these fingers in the RH for the Presto:
3234 2121 3234 2121 3234 2142 4345 3231    Then you jump up. Things should be similar if you can crack this first part with these fingers. Accent the last note of each group.

[sznitzeln]

I've tried both positions for the first bar and they both seem okay to me. But I dont agree with your reason: "the advantage is that you dont have to change handposition 4 times in a bar".
Either fingering you will have to move your hand position laterally or your thumb will be doing a crazy bending movement instead of being right over the key and using a basic up and down motion.  That being said I like the 5 2 1 3 1 3 1 2 way.

I agree that the hand will move, but not as much... with 521212... its like 1 position with small movements. Your second finger can be fixed on e flat, and its constantly working. With the other fingering its like you have 2 different positions, but its not an impossible fingering that either

[sznitzeln]

I havent tryed  lostinidlewonder's fingering for the presto, I trust it is good, but here is what I have been using, and I absolutely love this: (think I got it from sheetmusic archive)

First there are 3 bars before the presto, in the second of these bar I found some difficulties before I used, at first this seemed awkard:
LH: 521 switch to RH: 1312142543212

Presto:
RH: 323 4123 1323 5323 1323 5324 2434 5323 1 JUMP FAST repeat fingering and then starting on g: 1323 1545 1434 1545 1545 3123 4212 4212

LH: 131 2342 4232 1232 5232 1232 5232 1232 5 Jump 131 2342 4232 1232 4232 1343 2343 2454 3121 5121 ...

On the jumps: Dont loose the height of the palm before jumping, if you do it right the jumps feel like nothing.
As Neuhaus or Hofman (?) says: The shortest distance between two points is not a line, its an arc.


I noticed this was the exact fingering from Sheetmusicarchive LOL
Its a good fingering IMO
It uses the weak fingers a lot, which is good, because if you do not allow yourself to use these fingers, you will be crippled.
Its also good to use finger 123 a lot in other pieces where you benefit from it.
If you have weak 4 and 5 fingers its tempting to avoid them, but I suggest you not to do that.

[robert]

https://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/
There you will find some fingerings, but you have to change them a bit.

I don't see a reason for changing the fingering in the score of SMA but I would strike out every dynamic mark and and definitely change the tempo from b=144 to about b=88.
Check Siglind's deep analyse of each prelude and fugue here:
https://www-personal.umich.edu/~siglind/text.htm
And the specific prelude no.2 from WTK I  (and fugue) here:
https://www-personal.umich.edu/~siglind/wtc-i-02.htm