You guys love JC too much

[thracozaag]

I don't see how someone hasn't shown how there is free will. Look at the Titanic illustration. You choose whether to get in the boat or not. you choose Christ or not.

please explain yourself more.

boliver

 No actually the burden of proof is on you; either you believe in the absolutist view of this concept (believing in the physical laws that govern the behaviour of the universe), or the relitavistic view (quantum mechanics, in particular).  Neither view is particuarly satisfying.

koji (STSD)

[thracozaag]

free will exists in life. everything has consequences in this life. Eternity is no different. Choices you make today effect your outcome in the end.

  Except that these choices aren't really choices, are they?

koji (STSD)

 *firmly in the agnostic camp*

[rob47]

WHAT WAS I THINKING?

It was inevitable this would start mass debate.

you don't take religion seriously enough.

See but that's just it.  You take it WAY TO SERIOUSLY!!!! Like I said, I go to church, and get something out of it to live my life by.  I don't actually believe im eatin the body of christ, although I've lied since first communion and said 'Amen' everytime.     i know its just unlevened bread or whatever, and to me its just something you do in Catholice church.  I have never once drank that nasty ass wine, sorry the 'blood of Christ', but then again I'm a beer drinker:   the 'urine of Christ' if you will.

My eggrolls are burning,
Rob



[edit]

while i was typing 2 new replies have been added. This thread is ridiculous.

[meiting]

Do you really believe living exactly as Jesus lived is the way to heaven.?  Followin the new testament for everything it's worth? YOU"RE WRONG!!!

hrm. living exactly as jesus lived.. does that mean I don't get to shower anymore?

[meiting]

'don't look for a girlfriend at a bar'

yeah. just look for fun there.

[meiting]

So say God is not real, then who cares if us Bible huggers talk about Him to people and believe in Him.  Just say we're a little ignorant of reality and fantasying.

I love people who love religion. I don't like it when they try to force religion on me. Believe in god all you like, just don't force me to believe your version of god.

[meiting]

Well, Rob, the way I look at it is, according to the definition of the word "truth,"  there can only be one.  It is either here or it isn't;  The grass is either green, or it isn't, ect.  If there was more than one truth, then it wouldn't be "truth," it would be "oppinion."  So two opposing "truths" can't both be true.  Am I making any sense?  So for example, since you brought it up, either God cares about how we talk or He doesn't.  One is true, one isn't.  The problem is knowing which one is true and which one is false.  The same goes for different religions, or ways to "salvation."  If you REALLY wanted to know, you would have to find out for yourself, as people will always say that their personal "oppinion" is the "truth." 

By the way,  I'm a hard core Jesus lover and it bothers me too, when people say, "have you said hi to Jesus today?"  In a way, I guess it's like someone saying, "Have you said hi to your wife today?"  The question in itself is fine, but the prying motive behind it, drives me nuts.  But as far as talking about Him all the time.....if someone is doing so because they love Him and He is a huge part of their life, then that's okay with me.  Kinda like parents talk about their kids all the time.  But if I wasn't a Christian, and they were just trying to "convert" me, then I'd probably be annoyed.  I think Christians get it messed up, you know.  They think they need to save the world for Jesus, but God just wants us to love Him and live our lives to glorify Him.  Getting x amount of people to heaven or whatever isn't our job.  God will draw people unto Himself and people are free to make their own decisions, but it IS our job to be a WITNESS to the Truth.  btw, I know, I know, that last statement is a controversial one, but you know what I'm trying to say.  Regards

So what is the truth? Is the grass green? It may look green to you and me, but is it, really? How do i know that we're not all in a mass hallucination and only think the grass is green? If you believe that the grass is green, that is the truth for you, not necessarily for anyone else. Hence, for every person there is a different set of truth. Just because many people believe the same thing does not make it real.

[meiting]

Christianity teaches exactly that, to love your enemies. That does mean to treat those who wrong you with love instead of resistance.

tsk tsk tsk. So many bad christians throughout history including all the popes who waged war (remember the crusades?)

[meiting]

WHAT WAS I THINKING?

It was inevitable this would start mass debate.
 

See but that's just it.  You take it WAY TO SERIOUSLY!!!! Like I said, I go to church, and get something out of it to live my life by.  I don't actually believe im eatin the body of christ, although I've lied since first communion and said 'Amen' everytime.     i know its just unlevened bread or whatever, and to me its just something you do in Catholice church.  I have never once drank that nasty ass wine, sorry the 'blood of Christ', but then again I'm a beer drinker:   the 'urine of Christ' if you will.

My eggrolls are burning,
Rob



[edit]

while i was typing 2 new replies have been added. This thread is ridiculous.

My bad on the 2 new replies. i was just notified of this thread and needed to have some fun and relief from my boring life.

The way i see it, people believe in what they believe because they need to. If you have no need to believe in god, great. If you can't live without god, then go believe in him if it'll make you feel happier. People need a purpose, and many people can't find purpose without something that they can't understand. They need to love god and have god love them because people's love is not constant, so they need to create something that will love them no matter what.

Serious indeed. And it illustrates the imperfections of humankind perfectly.

[thierry13]

Mei-ting power  The real Mei-ting Sun is back 

[pianonut]

if i understand mei-ting correctly, there is no understandable purpose to life?  if you don't look to God, science is the only alternative.  as Thracozaag put it, a theory of relativity.  these ideas do not bring ANY form of love into a person's life.  in fact, they start sucking love out of everything.  if a girlfriend at a bar is ok, then the relationship is built upon 'many' instead of 'one.'  Christ's teaching starts with our devotion to him (and His blood) and continues on towards other people at a deeper level.  find me someone (i know there must be a few - but may be Christian deep down) who thinks in a relativistic way that isn't out for themselves alone.

is that how you want to view the world (and other people)?  as simply tools for getting.  i think 'giving' is the only way.  giving to God, other people, and putting others first.  when you adopt this way...it isn't bragging to other people about religion.  it may be that you will be better than people who claim to be Christian if you start doing this (or already are, as some of you probably do).  I feel that there is a break down of sorts that occurs whenever disagreement arises.  the Christian view is that we should 'lay down our lives' for another.  this is absurd to people in NYC (or for that matter, on the bicycle trail that i frequent).  they think 'you cannot get ahead.'  BUT, what if what really matters is NOT getting ahead, but helping others get ahead at the same time?  If you bring others along, you'll be farther for helping them.  guess that all of you do this by posting ideas and help on this pianoforum.  i'm not forcing my views on anyone,  just talking as i think (which i tend to do).

[rob47]

hrm. living exactly as jesus lived.. does that mean I don't get to shower anymore?

well, i guess you can baptize yourself once a day.

[pianonut]

people do this when they read God's word.  it clears your mind of trash.

[Torp]

So what is the truth? Is the grass green? It may look green to you and me, but is it, really? How do i know that we're not all in a mass hallucination and only think the grass is green? If you believe that the grass is green, that is the truth for you, not necessarily for anyone else. Hence, for every person there is a different set of truth. Just because many people believe the same thing does not make it real.

Well, at least we think alike....it's too bad (for me) that we don't play the piano alike.


Rob47,
Nothing wrong with starting a healthy debate.  This topic is alive an well after many 1000s of years, it's not going away anytime soon.  So far, while people are obviously passionate about their own beliefs, I haven't seen this denigrate into a name calling flame war.


Pianonut,
You state, "If you don't look to God, science is the only alternative."  I think this is a little absolutist, either-or if you will.  There are far too many schools of thought out there, i.e. Islam, buddhism, taoism, witchcraft, etc., to say it's either God (and by this I mean the Christian version of God) or science.  There are also people who look to both God and Science.  I don't think that either concept is mutually exclusive.  I don't think the world is that black and white.  There are things that Science can explain; there are things it cannot.  The same is true for religion.

For me, the entire purpose of religion (any religion) was to explain, or give a common terminology to, the unexplainable.  It is to provide an answer to the last why, where, how, etc.  Personally, I find a lot more usable explanations outside of the standard Christian teachings.

Jef

[vences5]

"For me, the entire purpose of religion (any religion) was to explain, or give a common terminology to, the unexplainable.  It is to provide an answer to the last why, where, how, etc.  Personally, I find a lot more usable explanations outside of the standard Christian teachings."

I really don't think that the ENTIRE purpose of religion is to prove the "God of the Gaps" fallacy. I truely believe that there is a existent God. I do my best to obey the word of God as it is written. If people have a problem with that, I'm really not concerned.

[Floristan]

I do my best to obey the word of God as it is written.

The word of God as written where?  To which of the many texts that claim to be the word of God are you referring?

[Torp]

I really don't think that the ENTIRE purpose of religion is to prove the "God of the Gaps" fallacy.

That is why I began the sentence, "For me....".  You're not required to agree.  Additionally, I have no idea what the "God of Gaps" fallacy is.  Could you expand on that?


Floristan,
Excellent question!


Jef

[BoliverAllmon]

Sin was created so we can have free will. To have free will one must choose something over something else. Sin is simply making a bad choice.

Koji. What I was trying to say is in what way hasn't somebody shown you free will? where do you still find the faulty premises?

boliver

[pianonut]

dear torp,

yes, i suppose i eliminated other religions than Christianity.  i believe there is one true God, and the others are false.  if one is 'religious' in the sense of mysticism you will find many connections to a false god (as you mentioned - witchcraft, idol worship, etc).  but, if you are curious minded you will prove for yourself which God produces results=answers prayer.  buddas are stone. 

science is worshipped everywhere - much like religion, it provides what we think are concrete answers.  but is it the FULL answer?  there are so many drugs now that are available for every kind of malady.  but what if some of the problems are preventable?  (maybe i watch too much tv, but what comes to mind is that show where the lady says "if everyone ate as people did in the early 1900's, there would be very little diabetes")  the cure for sin is found in only one place that science cannot reach - so science by itself is on the other side of the fence.

as you say, we can believe in God, and also be scientific in our thought process---but only to the point where we see.  when we stop seeing, we have to go by FAITH.  faith is unseen.  if you don't believe simply because you cannot see something, perhaps there is a reason for it that is beyond our human senses.  if God is absolute LOVE maybe we don't get that from science either.  people can know a lot of things, but without love they are 'clanging cymbals.'

[TheHammer]

Sin was created so we can have free will. To have free will one must choose something over something else. Sin is simply making a bad choice.

Koji. What I was trying to say is in what way hasn't somebody shown you free will? where do you still find the faulty premises?

boliver

Hmmm, I don't think that just by having two ways to go (staying alone at the Titanic or taking the life jacket) you automatically have a free choice.
I think free will is a problem concerning the concept of the human mind. Are we able to act at one point in time in two different ways. That is, if you once choose to take the life jacket, could you also choose to take it not, just by yourself? Think about it, how do you make a decision? Speaking for me, most often I try to think of all the pros and cons, try to imagine what may come to me when I choose this or that, then, if I am still undecided, I try to listen to my feeling and then make a decision (although this occurs quite seldom). Anyway, at the point where I have all my pros and cons listed, and where I listened to my feeling, and all this comes to say: take the lifejacket - could I not take it? Seriously, you have to take it! Your mind, your emotions, your subconscious at this point in time "have decided", you must do what "they" say.
Now the problem: if I am sure that there is no soul, but just the mind, "produced" in the brain, by bio-chemical processes which are out of "my" control, if I am sure that everything happening in my brain is there because of my genetic background, my up-bringing and some random electric sparks sputtering through my neural pathways - then how can I think that I could ignore my mind by my will, if the will is also determined by the brain? How could I NOT take the life-jacket?

What I am after is simply this: after all, Christianity (and punishment, revenge, etc.) only makes sense if you believe in the concept of free will. Neurology seems to imply that it does not exist. Even if you do not buy into science: "God" made us all? "God" knows everything? Future too? So, what I will do all my life, he knows? And he knew when he designed the universe? Now, why has he made a sinful person of me in the first place, if he knew that I could not resist the sins? That would be quite mean, wouldn't it? (Btw, I have no clue if this is really applying to the Christian god, so some knowledgeable people might enlighten me here?)

[Regulus Medtner]

The cool thing is that even if God knows and lets you be, YOU don't know and can still make choices. God, as omniscient,  is able to envision whatever you do in your life, with every possibility checked out, (like a computer analyzing a chess game beforehand). The actual moves and decisions, however, are yours to make.

[Torp]

The cool thing is that even if God knows and lets you be, YOU don't know and can still make choices. God, as omniscient,  is able to envision whatever you do in your life, with every possibility checked out, (like a computer analyzing a chess game beforehand). The actual moves and decisions, however, are yours to make.

If the decisions were truly mine to make then god would not know the results of those decision in advance.  If he knows them in advance and has planned them that way then I am only left with the illusion of free will.  I am but a pawn in a ridiculous game.

[thracozaag]

Sin was created so we can have free will. To have free will one must choose something over something else. Sin is simply making a bad choice.

Koji. What I was trying to say is in what way hasn't somebody shown you free will? where do you still find the faulty premises?

boliver

  If God is truly omniscent, then he automatically knows what choices I'm about to make.  Unless of course we're talking about a limited god, but then again, a limited god is not a God after all.

koji (STSD)

[Torp]

i believe there is one true God, and the others are false.

To the extent I can conceptualize a higher being I believe there is more than one way to worship that being.  The fact that someone calls this being "God" or "The Great Spirit" or whatever does not, to me, indicate a falseness.  If people would spend more time discovering the similarities in there beliefs, rather than killing each other over the differences, we might actually have a workable solution.  Hey, I'm a closet optimist, what can I say?

buddas are stone.

Perhaps this is true.  Put another way though, "God" is a figment of imagination, an idea.

science is worshipped everywhere - much like religion, it provides what we think are concrete answers. 

Yes, I agree, religion often provides what people think are concrete answers.  I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but the thought works from both directions.

the cure for sin is found in only one place that science cannot reach - so science by itself is on the other side of the fence.

According to Christianity you cannot be cured from sin, you were born with it.  If you were able to become sin free, would that not put you on the same level as God and Jesus?

as you say, we can believe in God, and also be scientific in our thought process---but only to the point where we see.  when we stop seeing, we have to go by FAITH.  faith is unseen.  if you don't believe simply because you cannot see something, perhaps there is a reason for it that is beyond our human senses.

Religion does not have a lock on faith.  Faith exists everywhere in every endeavor and school of thought.  There are plenty of things I believe that I cannot see or prove, none of them are related to religion.

Jef

[vences5]

Floristan: The Bible. If you'd like to explain why I follow the Bible and not the Koran (or any other religious text) then ask me. I'm just a little lazy and it's pretty long .

Torp: God of the Gaps is a theory that atheists use to try to disprove of theistic relgions. They say that when ever there was a gap in human knowledge, people used God as the cause. Hence, "God of the Gaps".  I also believe that what is true for me is also true for everyone else. That "It's true for you but not for me" attitude does not seem very logical. Just try going to your bank and saying that!

Since this is a piano forum, I will borrow a little quote I found on ex-atheist.com.-

Christianity is a beautiful and flawless piece of music composed by God. Sometimes, the musicians attempting to play it hit a few wrong notes or play it off key. Some make such an awful noise that they cause their audience to run away from them, holding their ears. But every now and then, a musician who is practiced in their Christianity plays the music and it is glorious and wonderful and sweet. We shouldn't fault the composer when unpracticed musicians play His composition; a composition should be judged when it is played by the best, not the worst.

[Regulus Medtner]

If the decisions were truly mine to make then god would not know the results of those decision in advance.  If he knows them in advance and has planned them that way then I am only left with the illusion of free will.  I am but a pawn in a ridiculous game.

It may seem that way but, then, this is only a result of weak reasoning. An omniscient God by definition knows everything and trying to explain it leads nowhere. Knowledge, on the other hand, is only that, even infinite knowledge; it doesn't necesserily entail manipulation. If an omniscient God hurts our egoism, it doesn't mean that He is not able to respect our individuality and let us be and choose to lead our life making free choices about things. It does tell something about our nature, though, not being able to imagine an omniscient being (us perhaps) not being able to resist temptation meddling with others' free will!

Now, this is all written in good intention. I don't assume to be knowledgeable in these things. When it comes to matters of faith or religion it is generally futile to try and persuade others. Cheers!

[Torp]

Now, this is all written in good intention. I don't assume to be knowledgeable in these things. When it comes to matters of faith or religion it is generally futile to try and persuade others.

See what I mean, it's all about finding common ground.

[lostinidlewonder]

  If anyone could adequately explain how the concept of free will is incorporated into the Christian ethos (something which even someone as brilliant as Aquinas was unable to do convincingly),  I might be swayed.

koji (STSD)

First, the definition of Free will. Ideally that is you have a choice whether to go out of your way to satisfy requirements you otherwise wouldn't have to do. Christianity is exactly that. They offer guidance as to which direction to take but no where will it says if you do not do it you will die! Yes it says often sin equals death, but that is unrepentant sin and we have to identify that sin is not against other people but against God, very different.

Some may say, then we have NO free will because we must contintually repent our sins throughout our entire lives. But this is not right. God is trying to make you realise what is sin. Many many many people recoil when they hear the word sin, but you shouldn't! Sin should inspire hope and reveal the ultimate love of God. Strange huh?

The word of God makes us realise that Sin is a part of mortal life. He is trying to say, Hey, you know you sin, I know you sin, but you still do it, so what are we going to do about it. God is offering us a choice to do something with our sin. To simply live with it and let it grow like cancer over our mental and physical life or contintually sweeping it under the carpet out of mind and out of sight will do us no good!

We are offered a choice to Pass it over to God so that he can untangle the messy net of sin for you. The thing is that we sin all the time, every day, every awake moment, so we just must develop a strong relationship between ourselves and God so that we may let the meaning and effect of our Sin to hit the Sacrifice Jesus gave to us on the Cross instead of ourselves.

That is Ultimate Choice and freedom. To not fear Sin, but use it to connect to God. People think that being Christian means you will never sin again, what a load of BS. We cannot escape sin. It is even written in the bible that one of the Apostles couldn't help sin, he ended up saying, I worship sin with my body but God with my mind and soul. Something along those lines i will have to find that verse again.
 And it also says, dont fear those that can kill the body, but those that can kill both the body and soul, which God has the only authority. So we have to guard our spiritual minds with just the slightest faith that we can hide behind the cross and all sins of our life will not hit us but the sacrifice Jesus Christ gave to us all. Why does the devil HATE the blood of Christ so much? Because it offers hope much to great to describe in words, it offers a ticket of faith to everyone and anyone, EVERYONE AND ANYONE, to enter heaven!

[Mozartian]

Oh boy....
I just have to say, Rob47- you've just about denied every doctrine of the Catholic faith- and yet you still profess it? Why?

Here's an article on free will- for whoever's interested:
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm

[Nightscape]

What about the poor children born into areas devoid of Christianity?  Say, a child born in the slums of Saudi Arabia and raised Muslim.  Has the Christian God forsaken this child?  The chances of any Christian missionary bringing the word of God to this child are next to nothing.  Yet, if this child knows nothing of the Christian God, how can he have free will to chose Christianity and repent his sins and worship God?

[Lance Morrison]

I really wish I could speak for the non-Christian religions here, but I can't, since I don't practice them. Yet I feel like they are getting quite a bad image....but I really have learned more about life from Buddhism and Hinduism than I ever have from Christianity

[BoliverAllmon]

  If God is truly omniscent, then he automatically knows what choices I'm about to make.  Unless of course we're talking about a limited god, but then again, a limited god is not a God after all.

koji (STSD)

yes God knows everything, but you still have free will. It is like this. Say I take you into a  plane high in the air, say 30,000 ft. or so. I then proceed to open the door. I give you a choice. you can either jump out of the plane without a parachute or you can sit back down and let me take you down to the ground. You have the choice to make, just because I know what your answer would be, it doesn't take away from the fact that you still have the choice to make.

God is the same way. He knows everything that is going to happen. He knows us so well that he knows what we will do before we do it, but we still have the choice.

boliver

[Bob]

That must be incredibly boring to know everything and know everything that will happen.

[lostinidlewonder]

What about the poor children born into areas devoid of Christianity?  Say, a child born in the slums of Saudi Arabia and raised Muslim.  Has the Christian God forsaken this child?  The chances of any Christian missionary bringing the word of God to this child are next to nothing.  Yet, if this child knows nothing of the Christian God, how can he have free will to chose Christianity and repent his sins and worship God?

It is written in the Bible a questioning of power of the sacrifice of Christ. Would it apply to those who had died before Christ? So those now who have a gift of Christ are more fortunate than their ancestors who didnt have it, so there is injustice! Same too someone will argue about injustice that a Muslim child who has had christianity squashed from their knowledge should be damned for not following Christianity.

Not so however.

God says that everyone is judged according to Gods standards, not anyone elses standards. Humans put forth their imperfect judgement saying, well Christianity cant be about free will because Muslims will go to hell because they deny Christ. This is a false way to think because we are assuming we know how God will judge.

It is false because we are applying Human judgement, an imperfect vessle,  and applying it to a perfect system which constantly proclaims that the only judgement is from GOD. So then we are at our own fault if we fool ourselves with that.

Before the sacfirice of Christ, those that have died, God will judge them according to his own Law, but after Christs death, God will judge us based upon whether we accept the sacrifice of Christ or think we can stand alone. For those who live in ancient times, where people all around them deny Christ and his works, then I could argue that God will judge them according to the laws he will judge those that died before Christ. If that is true or not i dont know, but it is an argument to the other direction.

[thracozaag]

yes God knows everything, but you still have free will. It is like this. Say I take you into a  plane high in the air, say 30,000 ft. or so. I then proceed to open the door. I give you a choice. you can either jump out of the plane without a parachute or you can sit back down and let me take you down to the ground. You have the choice to make, just because I know what your answer would be, it doesn't take away from the fact that you still have the choice to make.

God is the same way. He knows everything that is going to happen. He knows us so well that he knows what we will do before we do it, but we still have the choice.

boliver

  This type of circular logic is at best, untenable, I'm afraid.

koji (STSD)

[SirSteinway]

Logic doesn't apply here!  Faith is the key.  If you try to apply logic to the Christian faith, you will get nowhere.  You have to believe and accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and Lord.  Isn't it wonderful to believe in something as timeless and everpresent as Almighty God and not have to be logical?  It's all about faith! 

[galonia]

To the extent I can conceptualize a higher being I believe there is more than one way to worship that being.  The fact that someone calls this being "God" or "The Great Spirit" or whatever does not, to me, indicate a falseness.  If people would spend more time discovering the similarities in there beliefs, rather than killing each other over the differences, we might actually have a workable solution.

I totally agree!

Why can't we all worship one God but in our own individual ways?

[thracozaag]

Logic doesn't apply here!  Faith is the key.  If you try to apply logic to the Christian faith, you will get nowhere.  You have to believe and accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and Lord.  Isn't it wonderful to believe in something as timeless and everpresent as Almighty God and not have to be logical?  It's all about faith! 

  Oh right, how silly of me.

koji (STSD)

[chromatickler]

Logic doesn't apply here!  Faith is the key.  If you try to apply logic to the Christian faith, you will get nowhere.  You have to believe and accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and Lord.  Isn't it wonderful to believe in something as timeless and everpresent as Almighty God and not have to be logical?  It's all about faith! 

HAHAHAHAHAH da CG

[Black_Key]

HAHAHA true, da Christian Gospel!

So what is the truth? Is the grass green? It may look green to you and me, but is it, really? How do i know that we're not all in a mass hallucination and only think the grass is green? If you believe that the grass is green, that is the truth for you, not necessarily for anyone else. Hence, for every person there is a different set of truth. Just because many people believe the same thing does not make it real.

Believe it or not, I've actually thought about the grass scenario before (the exapmple was different though), and the only thing I gained from that thought process was a big headache.

[janice]

What about the poor children born into areas devoid of Christianity?  Say, a child born in the slums of Saudi Arabia and raised Muslim.  Has the Christian God forsaken this child?  The chances of any Christian missionary bringing the word of God to this child are next to nothing.  Yet, if this child knows nothing of the Christian God, how can he have free will to chose Christianity and repent his sins and worship God?

Good question, as this is sort of a "stumbling block" for so many people.  God only judges people on the basis of what they do with what they have learned about God/Jesus. Almost everyone has wondered "what about the poor innocent native in Africa who has never heard of Christ?"  God will not judge them for not having ever heard of Jesus.  The Bible addresses that.  (And I will need help on figuring out where it is in the Bible?!  But a passage says something about "how will they know if they have never been told" or something like that.  Does anyone know?)  Back to the "poor innocent native", the Bible basically let's us know that there are NO "innocent" people.  Check this out, from Romans chapter 1:

 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

So......these "innocent" natives are not totally clueless!  God has placed within all a deep-down knowledge of His existence.

[rob47]

Oh boy....
I just have to say, Rob47- you've just about denied every doctrine of the Catholic faith- and yet you still profess it? Why?

Have I?  I usually give all the money in my wallet to bums (homeless?, no bums) , just because, well theyr'e bums and don't have any money, whereas I have parents, sick of my mooching, but still parents who will help me out.  I try not to be selfish, and although I fail many times I try to make a conscious effort anyways.  the church I go to gave me an honourarium for playing in the church band and i donated it back.  I try to do 'good' acts because what i got out of catholocism is be a good person. that's it.  that's a good way to live life religious or not i think.  But does that make me a good catholic?  I don't care!

I guess I kind of style my life after Satan.

God only judges people on the basis of what they do with what they have learned about God/Jesus.

Janice you are a terrific human being , but how can you know this? come on. cuz the bible said so?  I've learned a whole bunch of stuff about Jesus (i think) and it has had absolutely no affect on me.  Kind of in one ear out the other. Am i going to burn in hell when i die with my boy Say-Tan?  I doubt it.

Rob

[lostinidlewonder]

The Grass is green. What is green for you is green for me, unless you're color blind. Green is an unchanging physical nature of light which can be measured by exact wavelength and tested to show that it is a constant fact of observation to everyone.

There is always hard evidence or circumstancial facts to be found which point us into the right direction always in life for any decisions we have to make. When one studies the life of Christ they will find an enormous amount of evidence that in the end strengthens their faith.

[lostinidlewonder]

tsk tsk tsk. So many bad christians throughout history including all the popes who waged war (remember the crusades?)

The Catholic church is not the Christian Church. They are two different things. The gospel of Jesus Christ has never been forced into acceptance, unlike the muslim, conquer convert methods, or the catholics crusades for instance.

[DMHM]

The Grass is green. What is green for you is green for me, unless you're color blind. Green is an unchanging physical nature of light which can be measured by exact wavelength and tested to show that it is a constant fact of observation to everyone.

There is always hard evidence or circumstancial facts to be found which point us into the right direction always in life for any decisions we have to make. When one studies the life of Christ they will find an enormous amount of evidence that in the end strengthens their faith.

So you do believe in the Darwin theory?

Religions and their gods can't be proven, that's why it's a religion in the first place isn't it? It's about faith and not science, otherwise where's the benefits in religion? Can't you guys just stop trying to (poorly) prove all of it and admit you're believing in something that might not be there? If you can then finally we can settle this.

Another thing (not just directed at you LIIW), shoving your beliefs down someone's throat when they don't want you to, isn't called help (it's harrassment).

As a good friend of mine concluded; "The dogmaticsm is so ingrained, any type of discourse is simply impossible.".

[lostinidlewonder]

It's about faith and not science, otherwise where's the benefits in religion?

Another thing (not just directed at you LIIW), shoving your beliefs down someone's throat when they don't want you to, isn't called help (it's harrassment).

I thought I was just responding to online public message board discussion, not shoving my ideologies upon people. 

The case of Jesus christ has a lot of evidence pointing to the fact that Christ's story was the truth and fact. So you can see that the belief in Christ and the faith in chrsitianity is not something totally based upon faith but analysis of the evidence we have before us. This is of course not a requirement for a lot of faithful christians, but for those with a much more scientific/analytical mind who require stronger logic, evidence to point them in the right direction, it is there too. Read Strobels, Case for Jesus Christ.

Some evidence supporting the gospel of Christ.
https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2332.msg74591.html#msg74591

[TheHammer]

yes God knows everything, but you still have free will. It is like this. Say I take you into a  plane high in the air, say 30,000 ft. or so. I then proceed to open the door. I give you a choice. you can either jump out of the plane without a parachute or you can sit back down and let me take you down to the ground. You have the choice to make, just because I know what your answer would be, it doesn't take away from the fact that you still have the choice to make.

God is the same way. He knows everything that is going to happen. He knows us so well that he knows what we will do before we do it, but we still have the choice.

boliver

If God is the same as the pilot in your example, wouldn't he know what the person would do (jump out or stay inside)? And, if he knew that the person would commit suicide, would he let him? Of course not, because he loves all of his passengers and doesn't want them to be harmed. Or, even better, would the loving, all knowing pilot let the passenger inside the plane in the first place, if he knew that this passenger would like to dare a 30000 ft. jump? Of course he would not.
And I do not see how this proves free will at all. The passenger might be so annoyed by his life (not for his failure, but for the circumstances), and he might be a very weak  person, not able to withstand some stress (so his genetic background and his education determine this), that he would say: Well, life s*cks, I want to die. And your pilot, knowing all this, has let him into the plane, and has also asked him if he liked to jump out of it. Not really what I would expect from my "Father"...

[BoliverAllmon]

If God is the same as the pilot in your example, wouldn't he know what the person would do (jump out or stay inside)? And, if he knew that the person would commit suicide, would he let him? Of course not, because he loves all of his passengers and doesn't want them to be harmed. Or, even better, would the loving, all knowing pilot let the passenger inside the plane in the first place, if he knew that this passenger would like to dare a 30000 ft. jump? Of course he would not.
And I do not see how this proves free will at all. The passenger might be so annoyed by his life (not for his failure, but for the circumstances), and he might be a very weak  person, not able to withstand some stress (so his genetic background and his education determine this), that he would say: Well, life s*cks, I want to die. And your pilot, knowing all this, has let him into the plane, and has also asked him if he liked to jump out of it. Not really what I would expect from my "Father"...

God is a perfect gentlemen. He never forces His beliefs. Look in Revelations. Behold I stand at the door and knock...... He isn't barging down the door requiring that you have dinner with Him. Your decisions are your decisions. He isn't in Heaven micromanaging everyone in every little way. He allows us to go and do what we want to do. I guess a better way of putting it would be this. He is another passenger with you in the plane. The plane door suddenly opens. He knows whether you are even thinking about jumping or not. He isn't forcing you to decide one way or another. He is giving free will.

boliver

[Torp]

God:
BELIEVE IN ME, WORSHIP ME, OBEY ME, DO AS I TELL YOU OR I'LL DESTROY YOU IN A RAGING FIRE OF ENTERNITY.  I'm a perfect gentleman, so really, I don't wan't to pressure you.  The choice is yours.

Me:
Uh, that's it?  Those are my choices?

God:
Well yes, that's free will.  I decide for you what choices you can make and then I punish you if you make the choice that I don't want you to make.

Me:
Not really much of choice is it?

God:
Well, I admit, I kind of stacked the odds in my favor.  The house always wins.  But you're still free to make the choice.  I can't force you to choose one way or the other.  Well, actually, since I AM God, I COULD force you because I'm capable of all things, but, being the benevolent guy I am I'll let you choose.  Oh, and by the way, since I'm omniscient I already know which choice you're going to make, so could you hurry up and get on with it!

Me:
Uhhhh, raging fire of enternity?

God:
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner, welcome to the family....(pause)...did you say raging fire of enternity?

Me:
Yup.

God:
But I was just SURE that you would choose my way.

Me:
Well, that's kind of why I phrased it as a question.  Just to see if we were on the same page.  I hadn't really made up my mind yet, I was just trying to get a feel for which way you were leaning.  I guess since you thought I was going to choose you that must be my choice, cause you can't be wrong.  Right?  If I choose raging fire that would mean that you didn't know what I was going to choose.  That would never fly.  Free will exists though, right?

God:
Yup, your choice.

Me:
Okay, I choose neither.

God:
You can't do that, that's not one of your choices.

Me:
It is if free will exists.

[TheHammer]

God is a perfect gentlemen. He never forces His beliefs. Look in Revelations. Behold I stand at the door and knock...... He isn't barging down the door requiring that you have dinner with Him. Your decisions are your decisions. He isn't in Heaven micromanaging everyone in every little way. He allows us to go and do what we want to do. I guess a better way of putting it would be this. He is another passenger with you in the plane. The plane door suddenly opens. He knows whether you are even thinking about jumping or not. He isn't forcing you to decide one way or another. He is giving free will.

boliver

But hasn't he put me in the plane in the first place? And, if I am thinking of jumping, hasn't he given me the idea of suicide? And if he knows that I am jumping, won't he do anything about it? Why not?
I am not saying that he is directing me in any way, I am saying that he has given me a place to start from, has given me a certain environment and so on and so forth. And from that point on he has known everything I will do. Because he knows everything. But when he knew it, how can he now punish me for sinning, when he has set all the conditions of my acts? Anyway, of course I am well aware of the fact that such discussions will quite seldom lead to an agreement, so this will be probably my last post on this subject (free will). If you believe in the soul-concept, the soul being something completely independent from your mind/body, your concept would work perhaps. I don't believe that, ergo I don't believe in free will, ergo I don't buy into Christianity.

The Catholic church is not the Christian Church. They are two different things. The gospel of Jesus Christ has never been forced into acceptance, unlike the muslim, conquer convert methods, or the catholics crusades for instance.

But it has been for a very long time, hasn't it? And it made considerable changes to the Scripture and influenced Christian thinking for more than 1000 years.
Also I think the imperative: "Spread the word!" is somewhat aggressive towards other faiths. Although I agree that it is a fault to equal Catholic and Christian. If there is anything I am certain of, than it's the fact that the Catholic Church is the exact OPPOSITE of the religion JC had in mind (further explanations can be found in the story of "The Grand Inquisitor", part of the exceptional novel "The Brothers Karamasov" by Dostoevsky, which by the way is also a splendid lecture concerning Mythology, free will, and Christianity).