You guys love JC too much

[rob47]

Do you really believe living exactly as Jesus lived is the way to heaven.?  Followin the new testament for everything it's worth? YOU"RE WRONG!!!

You think there's a heaven? so do i.  But if god and J money are as all powerful as people believe them to be, i'm pretty sure they will let you in to the VIP if you're a good person.  All these christinan religions have it wrong...Im sorry but you do. Be a good person to others and God and his son can't ask for moer..too many people take relligioun way more serios than they should.

Rob

[pianonut]

how can you love your Maker too much?  i don't understand.  how can you love anyone (girlfriend, boyfriend. husband, wife) too much?  noone that i know has ever complained from being loved too much.  maybe i don't understand the question.

i don't pray as often as i should, but when i do i make up for lost time.  being thankful for many things and praying for those guys/girls in iraq.  very difficult situations.  we all should be praying more, because 23 guys died in one week (this past week)...if i got my facts straight.  it hurts each time i hear about ahelicopter or whatever going down.  i really thought that once the iraqi government was voted in, and in power we'd leave.  it's taken much longer and been much more painful than thought.  i hope that we are not in for more surprises, and get our guys out of there ASAP.

[rob47]

true true,  but you got to understand the war in Iraq is not going to end in any of our lifetime. 

However, I'm sorry my post was a jab at bible hugger's and mormons.

[pianonut]

it's easier to tease people you can't relate to.  my daughter once said she should have gone by an amish house to get her colonial costume.  we (my son) and i continued the conversation and decided they're probably healthier (without electricity) eating food  out of the garden and not on the internet until 3 am.  of course, they probably have less to repent of.

one day my son told me he wanted to be a mormon so he could have more than one wife (i  tried to talk him out of this).  he changes his views kind of freqently now, tho, and more recently said he's not getting married.?  (but then we went on to have a conversation about that!  i guess you're right, that you can't convince anyone by pounding them with a bible)  though i tell him...'don't look for a girlfriend at a bar, ok.  go to church and find one there.' he's not convinced.

and, about the war in iraq...i think you may be right!

[i_m_robot]

'don't look for a girlfriend at a bar, ok.  go to church and find one there.' he's not convinced.

alas ye be a wise one

for all ye latties and fellas who think there are no good people out there

it's just cause ye lookin in the wrong place

if ye think em churchies weird then ye must prefer the constant cycle of hookup date cheat whine repeat

[lagin]

true true,  but you got to understand the war in Iraq is not going to end in any of our lifetime. 

However, I'm sorry my post was a jab at bible hugger's and mormons.

Hi!  That is so me!  Bible hugger right here!  You've probably heard people say the Christianity is a "relationship" with God and all that, right?  And from you're statement I'm gathering that you are NOT a Christian/Bible hugger.  So what  you're saying is that you don't have a personal relationship with God as Christians do, so I don't blame you for not getting it!  It's hard to know why someone (in this case God), is the way they are unless you "know" them. 

You post really made me smile though!  The reason being is that, I personally haven't heard anyone trying to convince the world that Santa Claus isn't real, or getting annoyed with all the little kids that go on and on about him at Christmas time.  (or the toothfairy, or the easter bunny, ect.)  Why?  Because we know they aren't real, so big deal if the kids want to believe in them.  So say God is not real, then who cares if us Bible huggers talk about Him to people and believe in Him.  Just say we're a little ignorant of reality and fantasying.  Like kids!  But if somewhere deep inside people really do think He might be real............................well, then that would explain the animosity.  Btw, I do realize that Rob never said God isn't real.  This is just a bunny trail thought.

[rob47]

true true.

Im actually catholic, and believe in god myself. sorry, God. but i just think people take it way to extremely, biblehugging etc.  There's millions of ways to have faith, and whatever works is what works.

I just hate people coming up to me and asking me thing like if i've said hi to jesus today and all that.  Like as catholic as I am, i go to church every Sunday and what not, pray in times of need i guess, i still have no problem saying Jesus F888888ing Christ, or f*** God that stupid f***, because I believe God really wouldn't give a hoot whether i said that or not.

There is no right religion, obviously, and i just choose to express dislike towards those I feel are imposing (intentionally or non-intentionally) their beliefs on me.  In the end i can just walk away from them, and i hope they do the same to me.

Or liek the fantasie impromptu topic where the guy ends every post with God Bless.

Satan bless,
Rob

[lagin]

Well, Rob, the way I look at it is, according to the definition of the word "truth,"  there can only be one.  It is either here or it isn't;  The grass is either green, or it isn't, ect.  If there was more than one truth, then it wouldn't be "truth," it would be "oppinion."  So two opposing "truths" can't both be true.  Am I making any sense?  So for example, since you brought it up, either God cares about how we talk or He doesn't.  One is true, one isn't.  The problem is knowing which one is true and which one is false.  The same goes for different religions, or ways to "salvation."  If you REALLY wanted to know, you would have to find out for yourself, as people will always say that their personal "oppinion" is the "truth." 

By the way,  I'm a hard core Jesus lover and it bothers me too, when people say, "have you said hi to Jesus today?"  In a way, I guess it's like someone saying, "Have you said hi to your wife today?"  The question in itself is fine, but the prying motive behind it, drives me nuts.  But as far as talking about Him all the time.....if someone is doing so because they love Him and He is a huge part of their life, then that's okay with me.  Kinda like parents talk about their kids all the time.  But if I wasn't a Christian, and they were just trying to "convert" me, then I'd probably be annoyed.  I think Christians get it messed up, you know.  They think they need to save the world for Jesus, but God just wants us to love Him and live our lives to glorify Him.  Getting x amount of people to heaven or whatever isn't our job.  God will draw people unto Himself and people are free to make their own decisions, but it IS our job to be a WITNESS to the Truth.  btw, I know, I know, that last statement is a controversial one, but you know what I'm trying to say.  Regards

[lostinidlewonder]

Do you really believe living exactly as Jesus lived is the way to heaven.?  Followin the new testament for everything it's worth? YOU"RE WRONG!!!

Be a good person to others and God and his son can't ask for moer..too many people take relligioun way more serios than they should.

Christianity teaches exactly that, to love your enemies. That does mean to treat those who wrong you with love instead of resistance.

The thing is, that the Bible expands upon how you can develop your relationship with God. This goes hand in hand how you treat and maintain relationship with others, but it is much more personal and private by comparison. You will be able to find a lot of people in the world who look very happy, but inside they are tormented and torn. You see that all over the place. But spiritually it is even greater. Where people beleive that you will find the ultimate spiritual understanding in life by being with people. It is yes, all about experiencing life and with other people, but life is constantly a development of your private and personal connection with God which is predominatnly unseen by other people. Even those that squash this development with Atheism, in the end it catches up with them always.

[minimozart007]

I agree wholeheartedly with the last post.  I exist in a family with me and my father being christians, my stepbrother and step mother rejecting the idea, and my half-sister somewhere in between.  It is painfully obvious that she is suffering from not knowing the Lord in her harsh criticism of everyone else in the family, losing jobs constantly, drinking, etc.  yet after 8 years of marriage, she hasnt listened to me and my dad. 

[BoliverAllmon]

I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by Me.

pretty plain to me. One way to Heaven. Doesn't say anything about works.

We are saved by faith, not by works lest any man should boast.

again pretty plain.

Boliver

[pianonut]

if you would enter into life, keep the commandments.

though bolliver is right, too!  nobody can keep them perfectly, so we have to trust in Jesus Christ to save us from our sins.  at least we can strive to be right with our fellow man/women and not tempt others by things that we do wrongly.

you can only determine (as lostinidlewonder puts it) your relationship with God in private.  if you are close to Him, you know it!  noone's criticism of you will change your relationship (as with family relationships) and even if others are critical, you know you are at peace.  then, whatever happens (aliens - or as Christians see it CHRIST returning) will not be a scary thought.  everything that will happen at the end of time is foretold in Revelation (which everyone has access to)...so it should be no surprise when seemingly strange things happen that are foretold to be the beginning of a change of this world as we know it to a much different and better world.

[greyrune]

I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by Me.

This one's always given me a problem.  What it seems to be saying is that no one who does not believe in Jesus will enter heaven.  If that is true God is condemning huge amounts of extremely devout, good people to eternal torment.  I'm absolutely sure that God would never send a good man to hell - if there even is a hell - no matter his religion.  I don't know what the requirements are for "getting into" heaven but i really don't think it should be looked at that way.  The aim of religion is not to strive toward some misterious present when we die but to create a living heaven here on earth.

Now to a more personal question.  In pianonut's post something struck me.

you can only determine (as lostinidlewonder puts it) your relationship with God in private. if you are close to Him, you know it! noone's criticism of you will change your relationship (as with family relationships) and even if others are critical, you know you are at peace.

It may only be that i'm relatively young, 19, but my relationship with God has never been at peace.  I would love to be in a state whereby i could, as it were, not worry about it.  To be secure enough that what i'm doing is right for God but i can't seem to find this.  I try to pray every night but it can be hard to feel the connection that is sometimes there.  It's not that i question his existance, i know i believe it's just hard to remember it sometimes, and to know how to act on that faith.

Also being a student there are many opportunities for fun.   Parties, women (3 to every guy and about a third of the guys are gay) and so on.  I'm by no means a wild child, i generally stay away from drugs and am actually still a virgin, though not for lack of opportunity.  It's just that sometimes it feels like these years are meant for living and i don't know if God actually wants me to hold back.  I realise i shouldn't go out and drink all day and womanise, but can a little fun really hurt.  It's a question that's been bothering me and since i can't really talk to anyone about it, i don't go to church (too shy, lol) this seems a good place.

[pianonut]

dear greyrune,

some campuses have bible study groups (or you could start your own with one or two people - girls/guys).  at least get yourself a bible.  determine to read from the beginning to the end.  pray before you start and thank Him afterwards after you read it.  if you read before you go to sleep, it really helps you sleep better!

as far as your personal love life, you are young at 19.  my son is 15.  i wish the same things for him as i do you.  that he will treat girls like his sister.  we just had a conversation the other night about it.  this one guy i remember that i had a crush on as a teenager was very good looking, played classical guitar, and made me actually shake when i saw him coming.  i don't think i ever turned him down if he asked me out.  BUT, he'd ask me to a movie or dinner and then proceed to take me right back home.  it made me mad at the time because i thought that he thought i wasn't grown up enough.  now, in looking back i think the most of him.  he, like my husband, went on to get a degree in engineering (my husband in physics, and library science), cared for one of his sisters (who got a divorce - which may have stopped him from trying to get married right away too), and generally just didn't put girls as his top priority.  i think he got married in his 30's.

if you look at people who marry in their teens vs. people who wait - go to college, even sometimes get to the point where their loans are paid OFF, it's much easier.  of course, people can't wait forever.  guys have it much harder because they're probably ready to marry at 19 but have to plan a bit more to make their lives successful.  you are very unusual to ask these questions because most just go and do whatever and don't really plan.

[greyrune]

My campus does have a Bible study it's just that my previous experience of them has been far from successful.  I don't want to offend in any way but they are often a bit cheesy.  I've never been the type to hold hands in a circle and say your prayers out loud.  I can fully respect those who can do this, but my prayers have always been a very private thing. 

As for reading the Bible i did read the New Testament, well i skipped parts of revalations (just too weird for me to take).  It does help to have a knowledge of the Bible but i just don't think it answers all the questions of life now, and sometimes it is outright wrong.  In many places (old testament especially) the beliefs are so bigotted that i simply can't believe them to be God's will.  The idea that women are a lower class of being or that gay people are an abomination in God's eyes is the product of what i would class as an outdated, and wrong, society.  If you think of mankind's journey as one toward God we are closer now than we have been before.  Granted we are a very very long way off but it's got to better than a time when society outcasts and kills the very people who are trying to save them.  So applying the Bible these days seems to me to be very hard.  The basic tennets will never change and never should, love God and treat others as you would be treated.  But many of the details seem harder to keep up with. 

Anyway i will try and find a place that suits me where i can talk to people about this, a member of one of my bands goes to a little church like group and i might see if i can go with her.  Thanks for your input Pianonut you're obviously a good person, that definately comes through in your posts, and your take on Christianity has always given me something to think about.

[pianonut]

sometimes the most intense bible studies are the ones you do alone anyway.  noone is always interested in the same questions - so you can find more answers (at least that's what i look for) in one sitting by yourself.

today, people who are poor are often out of work for months - and some die from neglect and poverty.  back in bible times, the poor would sell themselves or their children (which seems insanity) as hired help.  in return for working, they received benefits and sometimes inheritance (as in Proverbs - where the foolish son inherits nothing, and the slave who is dilligent inherits what would rightfully be the sons - or something like that).

one thing i have noticed is that God is ALWAYS fair.  he speaks of fairness for not just people but animals, the earth, everything.  when you read the OT you can see his desire for people to inherit blessings, but he says he cannot bless it when people don't listen to his commandments and statutes.  the commandments are listed in the new testament in various places, but the statutes take you by surprise.  they are not really outdated, just unknown by many people.  take for instance piercings and tatoos.  many don't realize that they are mimicking a sign of slavery, and tatoos are a sign of slavery to sin (as in cain's mark).  it marks a person for life.  of course, many things are only visible outwardly, and God can see our hearts.  so, you might have one person back from a war that has a better heart than someone who hasn't gone through as many hard times.  if you decide to become a christian and already have piercings and tatoos, you don't have to worry.  sins are much more permanent when intentionally done.  but, if you don't have these, then why seek two masters?  this is just one 'for instance' statute that seems irrelevant but still pertinent today.  how we appear does affect how people perceive us.

there are many things that we take as normal today that would be abnormal to God.  was changing channels on demand and there was some guy saying he thought girl on girl on girl was cool.  i was thinking, this is the way our minds naturally bend (toward evil) because it is sensuous, seemingly harmless, but very disgusting to God.  once you allow a little bit of sin into your life, your mind becomes bent toward it like a tree.  it takes more UNbending to get back to where you were and is more painful than just sticking it out and waiting for someone who values you as a person and not a sexual experience alone.

if you think about it, homosexuality is not really natural anyway.  i think it has to do with how worn down our society and lives are.  people don't have time for deep relationships, sexual repercussions (babies), and patience - and like quick fixes.  they are not interested in learning how to get along, and just drop relationships when they don't work out.  it's much harder to live according to God's word, because you are pulled sometimes in two directions.  to live according to your desire, and then also God's desire.  it is basically impossible to live according to God's word unless you accept Christ through baptism.  by baptism, you allow the Holy Spirit to work in your life and listen to it's unspoken solicitations (by reading God's word) for doing right because Christ died for us (so we should live for Him).

you learn a lot more in a man/woman relationship - because more effort is involved.  men and women are so different (in many ways).  it's probably easier for men to be with men - they understand how each other thinks, works, etc.  but, if it is not pleasing to God, then it is wasted time (imo).  anything of excellence is hard to reach, hard to maintain, and has to be 'watered' like a garden.  so, whenever you make the step to get married --you will have a lot of headaches if you just assume things will work out.  i think the best preparation for getting married is just getting to know other people in general (girls/guys), inviting groups and occasionally going out on a single date.  you can tell about a person by how they interact with a lot of people and also in different situations.  if you marry the right person - no matter what might go wrong, they are in it for the long haul too, and will try to work things out with you when things get rough.

ps.  i'm not 'good'.  did you know that even Jesus Christ (when called 'Good Master' in Matt. 19:17)  said that there is "only One who is good; but if you would enter into life, keep the commandments." everyone has their share of ups and downs.  i thought that after baptism i would be more 'perfect.'  it ended up just being harder.  i had made a choice (like marriage) to stick it out.  no matter what.  there's been a lot of rough hills to climb, so to speak.  some trials you ace, some you don't.  didn't realize i was kind of spoiled.  my husband didn't help matters, and kept spoiling me. lately i've tried to spoil him.  the last 20 years he's pretty much let me decide most things - or asks my advice - so he's definately not one of those people who think women are lesser beings.  he is very kind too.  even when i get mad, and say something mean to him.  he just gets hurt but doesn't yell back at me or get abusive.  often, i feel terrible afterwards, and have to go and tell him that i didn't mean 'whatever' and he teaches me by his being so patient (not by telling me i should change)!   

 

[greyrune]

I will have to get my Bible out and have a read through again, it may help.  However -though i realise that you will likely not change your mind, and i will likely not change mine - i'm going to have to argue a few things here.  I've always found that arguing helps to clarify thoughts much better, so this is for my benefit as well as anyone elses.  Faith has constantly to be challenged in order to grow and develop.  I say this because i read your post with an open mind (as far as it can go anyway) and i just ask that you don't read this thinking i am a "bent" person.

My theory about the world evolving toward God comes from trying to sort out why there the existance of evil in the world.  The devil just doesn't do it for me.  I can't see how a being as infinately good and powerful would not be able to vanquish an obviously lesser power.  I can appreciate the argument that God gave us free will but why would he have created evil.  We could have free will just as easily but not have a desire to do evil, live in perfect bliss.  So in a discussion with my dad iwas given the basis of a thought which made more sense to me.  It would take a while to explain so i won't here but basically the universe has come about as a gradual evolution toward God and perhaps even perfection.  I do think we are better now than 2000 years ago, however we are still miles away from the end point.  In the terms of the universe humanity has only been going a millisecond so we've got a while to go.  Anyway you didn't really dispute that one, lol.

The question about peircing and totoos though, i think illustrates my point as much as yours, if not even more so.  I'm not sure but i got the impression that basically you were saying that, as a knowing christian, it is a sin to get a tatoo.  This may well be a simplification but it came off that way.  Now that fact that tattoos can be related to a mark of sin thousands of years ago should have no reference today.  After all the cross then was a symbol of pain and torture under a ruthless Roman domination.  Now it is a symbol of hope and love.  I don't dispute the fact that we are judged on our looks, it may be wrong but it is completely true.  However people with tatoos are well aware of this and make a concious decision to get it anyway.  In the same way that you might wear a crusifix that displays something about you their tatoo displays something about them.  What it displays could be seen as rebellion and lack of respect for authority, but equally as an art form.  Some may wear tatoos to say "i'm a bad mafugger", others though may wear one to say esentially "if you are ignorant enough to judge me on the fact that i choose to decorate my body you will remain ignorant as to who i actually am".  Yes tatoos are a statement of rebellion against the norm (at least really big visible ones) but to call them a sin is a step to far, and to relate them to outdated symbology is pointless.

I can see that some of the things we take for granted today could be seen as wrong to God.  Promiscuous sex, excessive substance abuse, many of the things that are "cool" and unfortunately fun, well i can't talk for the sex bit but everyone else seems to like it.  Girl on girl on girl is probably a sin.  It is after all loveless sex.  I believe that our sexual urges are give us to be expressed as love.  This doesn't mean they are for procreation i don't think your only sexual partner should be the person you have children with.  As long as what you are doing is really an expression of your caring and love, not just a sport, it doesn't matter how many people you do it with.  After all only dolphins, bonobo monkeys and us have sex for pleasure, there has to be something in it, it isn't simply an animal instinct. 

The question of homosexuality is one that is always hard.  I can understand that it is an aberration, there is no question of that.  However genious is an aberration, albeit a less common one, true kindness is an aberration.  All the rare good qualities we look for in people are rare because they are not normal.  So to comdemn someone who's only detriment to society is that he's not adding to it (which we really don't need anyway) seems stupid.  That it is a chioce seems rediculous to me.  Yes perhaps some people do choose to be gay when they could be straight instead, simply for ease, it happened a lot in public schools over here in england.  My dad wne to Westminster and knew some of the boys that were gay there who are now happily married.  However for most there is no way they would stick to being gay if there was a choice.  It's better now but over the years there has been such persecution of gay people that if there were ever a choice they would be straight.

As for it being an easier option in the sense of a relationship i would have to disagree there.  While i don't pretend to understand women i have always been happier and easier hanging out with them than men.  I get on fine with men too women are just slightly easier.  I would think that attempting to understand anyone else, no matter what gender is neigh on impossible.  The divide between genders, while it is there, is nowhere near the huge divide simply between people.  Gay people, men and women, have just as much of a hard time staying in a committed relationship as straight people, yet they hang in there too.  To be fair i don't know of any really old gay couples but if give it to the end of my generation i'm sure there will be.

Anyway i'm not sure how much of this has made any real sense, it's quite late here and i've been ranting for a while, but i hope it give you something to think about in the same way you gave me something to think about.

[lostinidlewonder]

The devil just doesn't do it for me.  I can't see how a being as infinately good and powerful would not be able to vanquish an obviously lesser power.

The thing is that the Devil has no control over the world. He has asked, ASKED god if he can test the world. He ASKED god if he could torment Job, and he ASKED god if he could test Jesus. The devil has 0 influence over your life if you don't let him, but give evil your little finger and it takes your whole body.

The thing is that God is so much smarter than the devil. Take a woman who has been raped and beaten. What if from that she becomes a rape victims counciller and helps 100s of people who went through the same thing as she did? Isn't that something EVIL causing something amazingly great?

I can appreciate the argument that God gave us free will but why would he have created evil.

To understand free will you have to understand the dfiference between humans and other living creatures.

There is a difference between humans and other living creatures in this world. All other creatures know they "must Live", but humans know that we "are Living". There lies the huge difference. To know you must live only means that you only are living for now, living to satisfy what you need now without thinking of life after your death. All creatures either than humans thus have "instinct" which drives their struggle to survive. But for humans we know we are alive, we know that we are living, and we have concepts of what should happen if we where to die. An animals doesn't think about death, it only thinks about living.

Then why are Humans the only creatures which suicide and kill themselves? Why don't other animals do this? Why when an animal is depressed would it still keep itself from jumping off a cliff and killing itself? Yet a human might jump off and end it all.

Humans are also the only creatures which "worship". No other creature has this ritual. We are also the only animals which bury their dead, and feel that utter grief when someone close to us dies.

An animal moves on, of course we can say that they would be sad to lose their baby or partner you see that all the time in the animal world, look at Elephants for instance, a mother will stay with her dead calf for a long time before she moves on. But humans have this extremely complex understanding of "loss" which impacts on our emotional state. The "human emotional states" could be regarded as the replacement of animal instinct. Where animal instinct is controlled by nature, human emotional state is related to our choices as to how we take in informtaion in this world.

So if humans did not have choice we would not be much different from the other animals in this world. The only reason why we are on top of the food chain is that we have intelligence in life and always strive to find its meaning. So why is evil in existance? Why if there is a God isnt all evil taken from this world? Simply because the devil asked God if he could test the world and God allowed it. Why? So that we humans appreciate what is "Good choice" and what is not. That isn't that say choosing a bad path means we are living wrong, we are taking a wrong path if we if we walk the path and not care/think about it, there lies a difference too.

You would be suprised to understand how close EVIL is to GOOD. The devil has very clever ways of making a path look correct, and sometimes if we think we have CHOICE we are severely mistaken. Often we are too weak to resist evil and we naturally move towards the wrong path, that is why keeping a connection with God provides us sanctuaray from destructive selves. Humans are naturally EVIL, we do everything we do out of selfishness. But we are also natrually Good, we have an instense sense of love. So we only take a Good path once we can percieve in our minds what is right by asking God, then and only then our actions come under the will of God.

So why is there evil? There is no Evil, there is only choice. God has us thrown in the deep end! We have evil and Good around us, we will naturally move amongst both, we will do Good and feel good about it, we will do bad and feel bad about it. If we do bad and feel good about it then we are neglecting ourselves. If we do bad and feel bad about it, we cannot be blamed. God has given us a choice, to be on his side or not. It is as simple as that. As soon as we realise the utter WEAKNESS of human nature we starting making the right decisions. That is because we will give over our weakness to a higher power which will guide us and offer us sancturary from the sin even if we are living in sin.

The question about peircing and totoos though, i think illustrates my point as much as yours, if not even more so.  I'm not sure but i got the impression that basically you were saying that, as a knowing christian, it is a sin to get a tatoo. 

Jesus Christ said himself when people started condeming eating the wrong foods; It is not so bad what you put in your mouth as to what comes out of it. This too applies to tatoos and peircings I feel. Although the bible says YOUR BODY IS YOUR TEMPLE, and we should keep it in good order it still isn't really a sin if we get tatoos or piercings. At least I don't believe so.

The question of homosexuality is one that is always hard. 

God says and Jesus says you shall not judge others, that duty is left to God. The bible writes do not do this or that, but that doesn't mean that if we do it we are bad, wrong and going to hell. We are absoluetly not allowed to make that decision!

So if we are not allowed to make a decision as to what happens to someone in the end of their live if they have lived a life of sin, we too are not allowed to condem them while they are living in front of us. I find that the bible guides us to live RIGHT with God, but it isnt a manual to condem people with! People are Gay because that is the Sin, the natural EVIL that is within all people. If it is not being GAY it is A JEalous personality, if it not a jealous personality it is something else. There is always something within a person which will make them EVIL. That is not a problem with Humans, that is a problem for God! I think as soon as people realise that we are not ever allowed to point fingers and condem people, the closer they will become to understanding God and his compassion and love.

Jdugement comes from authority, to be judged by sheep and not the shepard is a laugh.

[rob47]

"Without evil there could be no good so it must be good to be evil sometimes."

-Satan from South Park: Bigger Longer and uncut

im kind of regretting starting this topic

[janice]

I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by Me.

pretty plain to me. One way to Heaven. Doesn't say anything about works.

We are saved by faith, not by works lest any man should boast.

again pretty plain.

Boliver

YES!!!  So if anyone thinks this is unfair, let God know how you feel.  Go ahead and tell Him that He is unfair!  Seriously!  He won't strike you dead, or anything.

[Tash]

ok normally i don't like getting into religious debates but i've been thinking about a few things.
nowi've been to a christian school my whole school life but i wouldn't define myself as a christian because i don't consciously follow that way of life. what i don't see is why we have to follow a particular religion in the first place. obviously there is no 'right' religion and i doubt god is going to have anything against you if you're not a whatever, because essentially you are brought up into a religion depending on your family, etc.
now in that thought, say religion was an issue, as it apparently is for some religions. what happens to those who don't get the opportunity to gain a believe, ask for their sins to be forgiven, etc? like think about pre-multiculturalism, different cultures believed in different gods because they didn't know any better. so does that prevent them from getting into heaven? and also children who die at a young age and didn'tget the change to gain an understanding of the concept of god- what happens to them?
which then follows my question of why we have to define ourselves into particular religions. cos in the end it's about your belief in god, and i think people shouldbe able to adjust everything else to what they think is right.
but then again maybe we need set religions or it might be chaos cos then there wouldn't be able to have any defined templeof worship ie. churches etc. that are dedicated to a set religion.

that was a bit of a waffle, not really what this thread was on about, but if someone wants to comment on what i really don't know what i'm on about, then feel free to do so.

and for the record, i do believe there is a god, because i don't think the world could work without some higher intelligence keeping watch. but i don't extend that belief into going to church, reading the bible, etc. because in the end, there are so many other religions out there that don't do that

[Floristan]

"Without evil there could be no good so it must be good to be evil sometimes."

-Satan from South Park: Bigger Longer and uncut

im kind of regretting starting this topic

Hehe...bet you won't make that mistake again! 

BTW, love South Park!  It's always a sacred cow slaughterfest and barbeque. 

[Floristan]

 

[pianonut]

dear greyrune,

i understand what you are saying about not condemning people for how they look, what they do (God's judgement - as lostinidle says), and how evil appears.  the more you read the bible, the more you realize that most churches don't have EVERYTHING correct.  evil is very close to good.  if you read it closely you will see that God didn't create evil.  he created the angels good and Satan (one of three archangels - Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer) in his light and beauty became vain and wanted to take power.  he was jealous of God (and strives to create jealousy in us).  jude 6 mentions that these angels (demons) did not keep their own domain (they wanted God's and started warring) and abandoned their abode.  this seems to us like the complexity and unintelligibility of the greek gods.  yet, we are told (which with 'spirit' we can discern from the bible) that (jude 10)"men revile the things which they don't understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed."

in answer to tash - there are many places in the bible that speak of a judgement (ressurrection of the dead).  many think that we go to heaven right away, but the bible says that even David (a righteous man) is still 'sleeping.'  awaiting that moment when "the dead in Christ shall rise first...and then those that are alive at His coming."  revelations is often misunderstood and unread.  but rev. 2:10 ..."be faithful until death, and i will give you a crown of life."  we cannot give this to ourselves.  just as satan has to ask God for any power he receives, we are powerless to raise ourselves from the dead without payment for sin (which Christ gave).

in rev.2:11 a SECOND death is mentioned for those who did not give Christ obedience  "...he who OVERCOMES (sin) shall not be hurt by the second death."  and in vs. 12 "...to him who OVERCOMES, to him will I give some of the hidden manna (food), and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone, which no one knows but he who receives it." in

vs. 26 "...he who overcomes, and he who keeps my deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he shall rule (with Christ) them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received authority from My Father; and I will give to him the morning star (power over evil - finally no more death/sin)."  rev. 3:5 "...he who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and i will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before his angels...vs.12 he who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. and finally, vs. 21 he who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."  we will have authority even over the angels - which we are now lower than.  I don't think some like that idea.

but, for those who did not know Christ (as babies, disabled/retarded, mentally unable, or just did not hear the gospel) in rev. 20:6 "blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first ressurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."  reign over what?  the world.  those who were not able to understand will be given a second chance in the milleneum - or thousand years - during which all the world will be taught God's ways.  there won't be a deciever (satan) and they will be at peace.  this is the next thing we will all see when we are ressurrected (a new world order - so to speak) where everyone will worship the true God. 

right now, God is preparing a place for those who love Him.  you have no fear of judgement if you accept Christ AND learn to do as He says (which i agree with lostinidle - that we all have different sins and one is not worse than another).  malachi 3:17 "and they will be Mine, says the Lord of hosts, "on the day that I prepare My own posession, and I will spare them (from judgement) as a man spares his own son who serves him.  So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him."  God will not treat the righteous and wicked ALIKE  - Gen. 18:25 (they follow the Shepherd) 

the 'second death' is not hell.  it is a complete extinction of evil and those who do it.  rev. 20: 14 "and death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.  This is the second death (first death in this life, second in the judgement of the ungodly), the lake of fire.  and, if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."  like sodom and gommorrah - they were warned not to act wickedly by taking the angels (appearring as men) for sexual gratification.  this city is a 'type' of the world and how a burning (like chaff) will take place of all those who do wickedly.  it seems like a very outdated word, but if you have experienced the results of evil you will see that it is deceptive at first (seems to yield blessings) and ends up cursing your life.  you won't receive life.  you'll get death.

[pianonut]

changing the subject just a bit, i thought i'd say that i'm not a biblical scholar, but i find articles and things to read that interest me.  i've always been interested in archeology because it sort of proves fact from fiction in terms of history.  being that the us is in iraq, we now have much more info/pictures, etc. to understand that historical place.

in this article - it goes into a little detail (many paragraphs down) about the land of Ur being the possible place of ancient Eden.

www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2000/PSCF3-00Hill.html

and, also, pics of the euphrates (that is mentioned in rev. as drying up to prepare for armageddon)   www.bibleworld.com/euphrates.htm

it is interesting that they are wanting to build (or building now) a dam to divert water.  this could account for it drying up?

[pianowelsh]

Any love we have for jesus is a gift from him anyway. Noone naturally loves God! We love him because he first loved us and that is revealled to us in the cross. Being a christian is ... hear me... NOT about being a good person! Good people dont go to heaven - Redeemed people do! If it was about how good we were we woud never have assurance that we have done enough and what would happen if we blew it just before we died. To understand this topic better you should read Romans it explains that we dont come before God in our own Righteousness (goodness) but in the Righteousness of Christ (which is perfect and lacking in nothing). I can only speak from experience but when you are in a relationship with the living God through his son jesus the freedom of knowing that its not about what you do but about what christ has done causes a love for him which cannot be explained in human terms.
All the arguements about the garden of eden etc are really just a smoke screan for trying to disproove the word of God because the reasoning tends to go ' if the word of God isnt true then what jesus did isnt enough and im not going to give my life up for something false'. Jesus died on the cross for Sin because our own reasoning and trying is impossible to save us - so he made the payment! Those who trust in him have 'life' and will never be put to shame - he is faithful to accomplish everything he says he will.

Blessings

[janice]

Being a christian is ... hear me... NOT about being a good person! Good people dont go to heaven - Redeemed people do!

I couldn't have said it better!!!

  To understand this topic better you should read Romans it explains that we dont come before God in our own Righteousness (goodness) but in the Righteousness of Christ (which is perfect and lacking in nothing) 

Yes.  And I am reminded of a verse, found in Romans 3:10-12--"No one is good---not even one.  No one has real understanding;no one is seeking God.  All have turned away from God;all have gone wrong.  No one does good, not even one."

(I forgot where, someone else will need to help me out here.  But I'm pretty sure it's in Romans, probably in the first half of the book.)  But it says "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."  So all of our attempts to "try" to gain God's favor are like garbage.  There is still sin there, and it must be dealt with.  But the only thing that God accepts is a perfect sacrafice.

(Enter Jesus)

Jesus was without sin.  God found him to be the perfect sacrafice.  Why?  Because Jesus IS God!  The second member of the Trinity.  So God basically sacraficed Himself, because He knew that He was the only one who would ever be sinless, and therefore a perfect sacrafice.  So when he was on the cross, God placed upon Jesus every single sin that was ever committed by the millions of humans that would ever roam the Earth.  Whoa!  That's a boatload of sin!!  So......don't miss this......the sacrafice for your sin was made 2000 years ago!  (picture a family sitting around a Christmas tree on Christmas day)  Someone reaches out to hand you your gift.  You have to make a decision as to whether to reach out and take the gift or not.  "Duh!  Why wouldn't I?"

(God reaches out to give you your gift of eternal life)

So do you take it or not?  It's your choice.

[janice]

now in that thought, say religion was an issue, as it apparently is for some religions. what happens to those who don't get the opportunity to gain a believe, ask for their sins to be forgiven, etc?

Tash--this is a very good question.  God has something to say about it, in the Bible. Romans 1:18-20 says--
  18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.  

So basically everyone has a deep down knowledge that there is a God.  God WILL NOT condemn someone for something that they have never known.  Many people have asked the same question that you did, Tash.  The question of "well what about the poor little innocent  native in Africa who has never been told about Jesus?".  The answer is--the native will not be judged because of something he didn't know.  That would not be fair.  But these verses in the Bible state that the "poor little innocent native" isn't "innocent" at all.  As the verse above says, they can see God and His powers.

[rob47]

I challenge this, "God", if that is his real name, to a duel tommorow at sundown with pistols being the weapon of choice.

[Torp]

So do you take it or not?  It's your choice.

I think I'll pass.  I'm not a big fan of gifts that come with strings attached.  Kind of makes it NOT a gift anymore.

As the verse above says, they can see God and His powers.

The funny thing is that IF most religions would just accept the fact that they call the same thing by a different name a lot of discourse would end immediately.  Most every religion seems to believe that they have the "ONE" true way to salvation.  I personally think my way is the one true way, though I could care less about salvation.  And, I believe that anyone else's way is the one true way too.  Paradoxical maybe, but I believe there are as many ways to truth as there are people seeking it.


To this discussion in general (i.e. not directed at anyone in particular)
Despite a billion bible quotes, anyone who believes that god and jesus are the only ways to truth are simply stating a belief, not a fact.  Believing something to be true does not make it so.  Nonetheless, I respect your right to believe whatever you wish.  I rest easy at night knowing that the requirements of those belief systems do not apply to me.

I challenge this, "God", if that is his real name, to a duel tommorow at sundown with pistols being the weapon of choice.

Careful Rob, if they show up, it'll be three against one.


Jef

[BoliverAllmon]

My campus does have a Bible study it's just that my previous experience of them has been far from successful.  I don't want to offend in any way but they are often a bit cheesy.  I've never been the type to hold hands in a circle and say your prayers out loud.  I can fully respect those who can do this, but my prayers have always been a very private thing. 

As for reading the Bible i did read the New Testament, well i skipped parts of revalations (just too weird for me to take).  It does help to have a knowledge of the Bible but i just don't think it answers all the questions of life now, and sometimes it is outright wrong.  In many places (old testament especially) the beliefs are so bigotted that i simply can't believe them to be God's will.  The idea that women are a lower class of being or that gay people are an abomination in God's eyes is the product of what i would class as an outdated, and wrong, society.  If you think of mankind's journey as one toward God we are closer now than we have been before.  Granted we are a very very long way off but it's got to better than a time when society outcasts and kills the very people who are trying to save them.  So applying the Bible these days seems to me to be very hard.  The basic tennets will never change and never should, love God and treat others as you would be treated.  But many of the details seem harder to keep up with. 

Anyway i will try and find a place that suits me where i can talk to people about this, a member of one of my bands goes to a little church like group and i might see if i can go with her.  Thanks for your input Pianonut you're obviously a good person, that definately comes through in your posts, and your take on Christianity has always given me something to think about.

societies ideas of good and bad change, not God's. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

[BoliverAllmon]

This one's always given me a problem.  What it seems to be saying is that no one who does not believe in Jesus will enter heaven.  If that is true God is condemning huge amounts of extremely devout, good people to eternal torment.  I'm absolutely sure that God would never send a good man to hell - if there even is a hell - no matter his religion.  I don't know what the requirements are for "getting into" heaven but i really don't think it should be looked at that way.  The aim of religion is not to strive toward some misterious present when we die but to create a living heaven here on earth.

what you think it says it what it says. Only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ. It isn't God sending people to Hell. It is people choosing to go.

think about this.


Say you were on the Titanic. The iceberg hit and the boat started sinking. The captain said to put your life jacket on and get in the life boat. That is the only way to survive. Trust me and get in this boat. You say, "Nah, I am ok. I work out alot and am a good swimmer. I will be fine." No matter how much the captain persists, you refuse. In the end the captain takes all of the passengers that trusted him and got into a boat to safety. You on the other hand die in the cold waters, because you thought you could work your way out of ultimate death.

This is the exact idea that God is promoting. Only perfection is allowed into Heaven. Everyone has sinned and cannot enter into Heaven in our present state. Just like no one is a strong enough swimmer to avoid the deathly grasp of those waters. You could do all the good deeds you wanted to, but you are still inadequate. Jesus come follow me and I will protect you. Just like the boat protects the passengers from the waters, so does His sacrifice on Calvary cover and protect us from death.

So, choose you this day whom you will choose, but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:14

[Kohai]

With much respect Torp, I would like to inquire on a particular aspect of your argument here.  I am not much a fan of relegion per se, though I am a great fan of logic.  

What I am intrigued about within your post is that you in one instance say that...

I personally think my way is the one true way, though I could care less about salvation.  And, I believe that anyone else's way is the one true way too.  Paradoxical maybe, but I believe there are as many ways to truth as there are people seeking it.

This to me reveals that you believe there is no single absolute Truth (which by the way, would have to be absolute itself to be ultimately true.  If it is not absolute, then there is absolute Truth; if it is absolute Truth, then in this case also, there is absolute Truth).  This leads me to think that you believe that what people simply believe to be truth, is indeed true.

So I am simply curious then as to why you would go on to state this:

To this discussion in general (i.e. not directed at anyone in particular)
Despite a billion bible quotes, anyone who believes that god and jesus are the only ways to truth are simply stating a belief, not a fact.  Believing something to be true does not make it so.  Nonetheless, I respect your right to believe whatever you wish.  I rest easy at night knowing that the requirements of those belief systems do not apply to me.

According to your logic above, wouldn't the christians very belief in what they believe, actually make it true then?  And wouldn't this sentence here:

Believing something to be true does not make it so.

hit the very foundations of your own arguments and very beliefs?

I am simply interested as I have read many of your posts and feel that you are clearly a deep thinker.

Kohai

[BoliverAllmon]

Do you really believe living exactly as Jesus lived is the way to heaven.?  Followin the new testament for everything it's worth? YOU"RE WRONG!!!

You think there's a heaven? so do i.  But if god and J money are as all powerful as people believe them to be, i'm pretty sure they will let you in to the VIP if you're a good person.  All these christinan religions have it wrong...Im sorry but you do. Be a good person to others and God and his son can't ask for moer..too many people take relligioun way more serios than they should.

Rob

is it that we take it too serious or you not serious enough?

[rob47]

is it that we take it too serious or you not serious enough?

the latter.   Do you mean you don't take me seriously, or I dont take reilgion seriously enough?  Both are true.

[BoliverAllmon]

the latter.   Do you mean you don't take me seriously, or I dont take reilgion seriously enough?  Both are true.

you don't take religion seriously enough.

[pianonut]

from my perspective, 'strings' attached from God are not like human strings (you will owe me forever).  He wants us to rule WITH Him on his throne.  if you look through the bible and find all the passages that use the word 'heaven'  they are fewer than the ones that use the word 'kingdom.'  He is coming to set up rulership of this world, and the world to come (new heaven and earth = heaven).  some churches don't really teach the whole bible to their congregations.  just favorite passages.  if you read the whole bible you'll get the whole story (truth).

boliver, pianowelsh, janice, lostinidle, and torp will come to the duel tommorrow night and watch rob47 shoot his gun into the sky.  it's not that i don't understand logic, it's that faith doesn't come by OUR logic.  my son, whom i have always read God's word to, doesn't believe either.  he was three when he was out on the backyard patio table looking up and said "i don't see God."  but, as life trials hit people, you come to realize you need help.  not just in bad times but help in so many ways.  the lifejacket is our faith in Christ, our prayers to overcome sin make us not only clean (and washed in God's sight) but acceptable to others around us as well (we are not doing the same things as people who worship satan).  Our deeds don't save us, but they express love to God.

[BoliverAllmon]

I challenge this, "God", if that is his real name, to a duel tommorow at sundown with pistols being the weapon of choice.

sarcasm gets you no where really.

boliver

[thracozaag]

  If anyone could adequately explain how the concept of free will is incorporated into the Christian ethos (something which even someone as brilliant as Aquinas was unable to do convincingly),  I might be swayed.

koji (STSD)

[Torp]

With much respect Torp, I would like to inquire on a particular aspect of your argument here.  I am not much a fan of relegion per se, though I am a great fan of logic.

I'm not particularly a fan of either, so I'm sure if you apply classical logic to the reasoning (I'm using the term 'reasoning' loosely, then I'm sure you will find holes)

This to me reveals that you believe there is no single absolute Truth (which by the way, would have to be absolute itself to be ultimately true.  If it is not absolute, then there is absolute Truth; if it is absolute Truth, then in this case also, there is absolute Truth).  This leads me to think that you believe that what people simply believe to be truth, is indeed true.

Yes, I do believe in a single absolute truth....mine.  You and others probably have absolute truths that you believe in as well.  I would liken this to the theory of relativity.  From my perspective my truth is real.  From your perspective, your truth is real.  We may both be right, we may both be wrong.  There may be another "ultimate" truth out there that has absolutely nothing to do with what I believe.  Just because I believe something does not make it so, except for from my perspective.  I once met a man who believed he was Jesus. (I'm actually serious here).  I didn't believe him.  That didn't change his belief.  For all I know, he could have been Jesus coming to give me a message.  I know people who have claimed to receive such personal messages from Jesus.  From my point of view the guy looked an awful lot like a homeless person in the throws of dementia; at least that's my belief.  Could be that he was schizophrenic, in which case my belief about him not being Jesus was right, but my belief about his condition was wrong.  Could be the diagnosis by the medical professionals was wrong and the guy really "was" Jesus, back to provide us with some useful data.  My point here is that it doesn't really matter what the 'truth' is, what matters is your own perception.  From my background, and my life to date, I have seen nothing in Christianity that leads me to believe it has a lock on truth or that it is "The Way."  I acknowledge, ultimately, that I could be wrong.  It is possible that Christianity is the way and my perception is wrong.  At this point, I'm willing to take that chance.

According to your logic above, wouldn't the christians very belief in what they believe, actually make it true then?  And wouldn't this sentence here:
 
Believing something to be true does not make it so.

hit the very foundations of your own arguments and very beliefs?

Again, I doubt very much anything I say has logic associated with it.  I believe I claimed that what I said, at best, would be paradoxical; which would imply a certain amount of illogic.  However, I do think that the very fact that someone believes something does make it true for them.  I suppose, for me, this would be the definition of faith; you simply believe something to be true.  This is probably why I see myself as a faith-driven, spiritual person.  It's because I believe certain things despite the clamour of other voices to the contrary.  What I believe, however, does not bear any resemblance to Christianity.

I am simply interested as I have read many of your posts and feel that you are clearly a deep thinker.

I honestly don't know if my thoughts are any deeper or shallower than anyone else's.  Like most people I know I have contemplated the big questions of life; why am I here?  How did I get here?  Where was I before I came here?  What happens when we die, etc. ad infinitum?  The reality, for me, is that the older I get, the less important those questions become.  Those questions have been replaced by others substantially more personal.  What happens to me after I die is of little concern to me; whether my daughter will have a world to grow up in is.

I'm sure that any logical argument such as (A=B & B=C, therefore A=C), applied to my 'reasoning' will naturally show its flaws.

Jef

[BoliverAllmon]

  If anyone could adequately explain how the concept of free will is incorporated into the Christian ethos (something which even someone as brilliant as Aquinas was unable to do convincingly),  I might be swayed.

koji (STSD)

I don't see how someone hasn't shown how there is free will. Look at the Titanic illustration. You choose whether to get in the boat or not. you choose Christ or not.

please explain yourself more.

boliver

[Torp]

boliver, pianowelsh, janice, lostinidle, and torp will come to the duel tommorrow night and watch rob47 shoot his gun into the sky.

I probably should be clearer in my postings, since sarcasm doesn't come through very well.  I'd be happy to be there, though I would be fully on Rob's side.

My statement about 3 against 1 was an obviously-too-subtle jab at the Christian insistancy to worship 3 entities while calling it 1.

If anyone could adequately explain how the concept of free will is incorporated into the Christian ethos (something which even someone as brilliant as Aquinas was unable to do convincingly), I might be swayed.

Kind of like the famous Henry Ford quote when people wanted to know what color they could have for their Model T.  "You can have any color you want, as long as it's black."

I believe free will exists in the Christian ethos, it just comes with a pretty severe price tag.

Jef

[BoliverAllmon]

I probably should be clearer in my postings, since sarcasm doesn't come through very well.  I'd be happy to be there, though I would be fully on Rob's side.

My statement about 3 against 1 was an obviously-too-subtle jab at the Christian insistancy to worship 3 entities while calling it 1.

Kind of like the famous Henry Ford quote when people wanted to know what color they could have for their Model T.  "You can have any color you want, as long as it's black."

I believe free will exists in the Christian ethos, it just comes with a pretty sever price tag.

Jef

free will exists in life. everything has consequences in this life. Eternity is no different. Choices you make today effect your outcome in the end.

[Torp]

I don't see how someone hasn't shown how there is free will. Look at the Titanic illustration. You choose whether to get in the boat or not. you choose Christ or not.

please explain yourself more.

boliver

The problem with the Titanic analogy is that it won't hold up very well (no pun intended).  First, the Titanic was poorly designed, if it was perfectly designed, as the argument for god's creation would be, there would be no accident from which to save people.  Additionally, the Titanic did not have enough life vests or life rafts for all those who wished to be saved.  Further, are you advocating that I could live a completely un-christian lifestyle for my whole life just so long as I get in the lifejacket before the ship goes down?  What about all the people who did grab a life jacket and died anyway?

Jef

[Torp]

free will exists in life. everything has consequences in this life. Eternity is no different. Choices you make today effect your outcome in the end.

I'm perfectly comfortable with that statement.

Jef

[Lance Morrison]

the bible---not for me. i prefer the bhagavad gita

[BoliverAllmon]

The problem with the Titanic analogy is that it won't hold up very well (no pun intended).  First, the Titanic was poorly designed, if it was perfectly designed, as the argument for god's creation would be, there would be no accident from which to save people.  Additionally, the Titanic did not have enough life vests or life rafts for all those who wished to be saved.  Further, are you advocating that I could live a completely un-christian lifestyle for my whole life just so long as I get in the lifejacket before the ship goes down?  What about all the people who did grab a life jacket and died anyway?

Jef

ok forget about the literal Titanic. Think of any ship with a similar situation. Creation was perfect until sin entered the picture. God never forced anyone to be His perfect creation. He gave us rules and regulations and we have the choice to keep them or not. It's like the FDA. They tell us that if we eat a well-balanced nutritious life (according to their guidelines) that we will live a longer healthier life (barring accidents like car wrecks and the such). Now, I can go and follow the FDA and live in a more perfect atmosphere full of health or I can CHOOSE to eat whatever I want whenever I want and cause myself health problems in the future. The same is with God. He showed us how to have a perfect existence, but we failed. Sin was brought into the world and will only be cleansed when God returns and restores a new Heaven and new Earth.

boliver

[BoliverAllmon]

the bible---not for me. i prefer the bhagavad gita

and what is that?

[Torp]

Creation was perfect until sin entered the picture.

Well......since god created everything, he must have created sin as well.  According to the bible, god's creation is perfect.  Therefore, sin must be perfect too.  If I'm living in sin, am I not living in god's creation?

Also, if god was not responsible for sin, then god's creation couldn't be perfect as it left room for marginalization through the introduction of sin.

If god created sin just to test us, then he is a petty, insecure being who resorts to entrapment and fear of death to persuade people to love him.  I wouldn't tolerate such behavior in humans.  I certainly wouldn't tolerate it in a diety.

Jef

[DMHM]

I challenge this, "God", if that is his real name, to a duel tommorow at sundown with pistols being the weapon of choice.

Be sure not to think of the marshmallow man, when you're there waiting for him.