You guys love JC too much

[vences5]

God:
BELIEVE IN ME, WORSHIP ME, OBEY ME, DO AS I TELL YOU OR I'LL DESTROY YOU IN A RAGING FIRE OF ENTERNITY.  I'm a perfect gentleman, so really, I don't wan't to pressure you.  The choice is yours.

Me:
Uh, that's it?  Those are my choices?

God:
Well yes, that's free will.  I decide for you what choices you can make and then I punish you if you make the choice that I don't want you to make.

Me:
Not really much of choice is it?

God:
Well, I admit, I kind of stacked the odds in my favor.  The house always wins.  But you're still free to make the choice.  I can't force you to choose one way or the other.  Well, actually, since I AM God, I COULD force you because I'm capable of all things, but, being the benevolent guy I am I'll let you choose.  Oh, and by the way, since I'm omniscient I already know which choice you're going to make, so could you hurry up and get on with it!

Me:
Uhhhh, raging fire of enternity?

God:
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner, welcome to the family....(pause)...did you say raging fire of enternity?

Me:
Yup.

God:
But I was just SURE that you would choose my way.

Me:
Well, that's kind of why I phrased it as a question.  Just to see if we were on the same page.  I hadn't really made up my mind yet, I was just trying to get a feel for which way you were leaning.  I guess since you thought I was going to choose you that must be my choice, cause you can't be wrong.  Right?  If I choose raging fire that would mean that you didn't know what I was going to choose.  That would never fly.  Free will exists though, right?

God:
Yup, your choice.

Me:
Okay, I choose neither.

God:
You can't do that, that's not one of your choices.

Me:
It is if free will exists.

God doesn't send you to hell, you send yourself to hell.

I also do not believe in the Darwin theory. Saying that non-intelligent natural forces created intelligent beings is like saying that if a tornado went through a junkyard it created a Boeing 747.

Perhaps within a few years, scientists will come up with a better theory. I am open minded if it presents credible information.

Logic is always required. However, logic alone is not always sufficient, meaning that evidence doesn't always lend itself to deductive reasoning.

Rob47: I think what Janice was trying to say was that if you don't know of Jesus Christ you cannot be held accountable, but if you do, well, actions and ideas have real life consequences.

[timothy42b]

YES!!!  So if anyone thinks this is unfair, let God know how you feel.  Go ahead and tell Him that He is unfair!  Seriously!  He won't strike you dead, or anything.

Umm.  It occurs to me that there is another possible interpretation here.  Hope Janice doesn't think I'm picking on her.  I do disagree with her sometimes!  not always though.

Yes, the Bible does say that.  It's pretty clearcut I think, the ONLY way to salvation is to believe in Jesus.  And even that wouldn't help, if it were not for his sacrifice.  Gotta have both conditions to be saved.

And yet, the Bible also says that Abraham, Moses, and Elijah are in Heaven with the Father.  (As does the Koran, I believe.)  Those three had the benefit of neither condition. 

So what do we do with that contradiction? 

One possible way out is to say that Jesus is indeed the only way to be saved, but He is so powerful that He can't be limited to saving only people who believe in him, or to those who lived after his death when sin was paid for. 

This makes sense to me, yet...I dunno.  This leads to the theory that Jesus may be the path for us Christians, but other paths exist for him to work through.  And that would lead directly to the question of what, then, does qualify those others for salvation?  Good works?  Good intentions? 

[Torp]

Yes, the Bible does say that.  It's pretty clearcut I think, the ONLY way to salvation is to believe in Jesus.  And even that wouldn't help, if it were not for his sacrifice.  Gotta have both conditions to be saved.

And yet, the Bible also says that Abraham, Moses, and Elijah are in Heaven with the Father.  (As does the Koran, I believe.)  Those three had the benefit of neither condition. 

So what do we do with that contradiction?

I think the argument would probably revolve around the holy trinity, god, jesus, and holy spirit.  The claim is that all three are one and have always been one.  Therefore, with jesus always being there, anyone saved would have been saved through him...sort of.

Just thinking out loud, I don't really know how to resolve that contradiction.  I do like your line of thinking though.

The answer (aside from blowing in the wind) will always revolve around faith.  Despite all contradiction or evidence to the contrary you must simply believe it to be true.

Jef

[lostinidlewonder]

God:
BELIEVE IN ME, WORSHIP ME, OBEY ME, DO AS I TELL YOU OR I'LL DESTROY YOU IN A RAGING FIRE OF ENTERNITY.  I'm a perfect gentleman, so really, I don't wan't to pressure you.  The choice is yours.

Me:
Uh, that's it?  Those are my choices?

God:
Well yes, that's free will.  I decide for you what choices you can make and then I punish you if you make the choice that I don't want you to make.

Me:
Not really much of choice is it?

God:
Well, I admit, I kind of stacked the odds in my favor.  The house always wins.  But you're still free to make the choice.  I can't force you to choose one way or the other.  Well, actually, since I AM God, I COULD force you because I'm capable of all things, but, being the benevolent guy I am I'll let you choose.  Oh, and by the way, since I'm omniscient I already know which choice you're going to make, so could you hurry up and get on with it!

Me:
Uhhhh, raging fire of enternity?

God:
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner, welcome to the family....(pause)...did you say raging fire of enternity?

Me:
Yup.

God:
But I was just SURE that you would choose my way.

Me:
Well, that's kind of why I phrased it as a question.  Just to see if we were on the same page.  I hadn't really made up my mind yet, I was just trying to get a feel for which way you were leaning.  I guess since you thought I was going to choose you that must be my choice, cause you can't be wrong.  Right?  If I choose raging fire that would mean that you didn't know what I was going to choose.  That would never fly.  Free will exists though, right?

God:
Yup, your choice.

Me:
Okay, I choose neither.

God:
You can't do that, that's not one of your choices.

Me:
It is if free will exists.

This is again a product of "Human Judgement" thought process. We have no idea of the perfect model of judgement God will use, however he does say that not one person in the end will feel injustice or hard done by. Everysingle person will accept what is handed down to them with 100% acceptance.

If you live your entire life denying God, but then for the last 1% of your life you finally realise that Humans Dont know it all, Humans can't control everything that happens, humans are not all powerful, Death has meaning, Humans are not the centre of the univerise + neither is the individual, and you put yourself over to God through through hope and faith, then all your years of denial will be wiped away.

We always have a choice, God is saying, LIFE or DEATH? It is an impossible task to get LIFE and hope we can do it by being good, the wages for Sin is DEATH and we all deserve DEATH. But we now stand in the court room, God in front of us, ready to pass down the death sentence, but Jesus Christ comes in and says, pass it over to me, ill take the strike of Death, save this guilty man/woman.

That is the gift of Christ, that is the power of the Blood of Christ! That is what we are given, all of us sinners! And yet we have the nerve to say, Well i want to have a choice.

[Nightscape]

The answer (aside from blowing in the wind) will always revolve around faith.  Despite all contradiction or evidence to the contrary you must simply believe it to be true.

Jef

But where do you draw the line?  If "faith" works in helping me forget about Christianity's logical inconsistancies and just accept it "as is", then why can't I use that excuse for anything else I don't understand?

"Despite all contradiction or evidence to the contrary you must simply believe it to be true" - this is the very definition of denial, isn't it?

[rob47]

my 1st 100+ post thread.

too bad i really don't care too much about the debate i've started.



Jesus was probably cool.  The Devil?...probably a cool guy also.  God? an arrogant jerk who's ironic sense of humour requires us to cry in pure pain to fuel his power. (homage to south park, "our tear's give god power'.

[haydn]

I do not speak compliquely english... and I do not understand this subject....
Anyone speak french

[bernhard]

I do not speak compliquely english... and I do not understand this subject....
Anyone speak french

I speak very good English (I am also very modest ), and I am not sure if I understand it either .

[pianoforce]

I think that may be because the language is in Crazy Speak...

[BoliverAllmon]

I think that may be because the language is in Crazy Speak...

ah yes the Crazy Speak.....the language where one can say something about himself and be speaking truth and the other says the same thing and they will be a blasphemous liar.

[rob47]

"The first quality of an honest man is contempt for religion, which would have us afraid of the most natural thing in the world, which is death; and would have us hate the one beautiful thing destiny has given us, which is life."
- Saint-Savin from The Island of the Day Before by Umberto Eco

Interessssssting

[Abstract Harmony]

Anyone care to really back up the claim that the Catholic Church is not Christian? 

[Waldszenen]

Well......since god created everything, he must have created sin as well.  According to the bible, god's creation is perfect.  Therefore, sin must be perfect too.  If I'm living in sin, am I not living in god's creation?

Also, if god was not responsible for sin, then god's creation couldn't be perfect as it left room for marginalization through the introduction of sin.

If god created sin just to test us, then he is a petty, insecure being who resorts to entrapment and fear of death to persuade people to love him.  I wouldn't tolerate such behavior in humans.  I certainly wouldn't tolerate it in a diety.

Jef

Wrong - God created humans with the ability to choose. Humans chose sin. Not God.

[Torp]

Wrong - God created humans with the ability to choose. Humans chose sin. Not God.

How could we choose something that does not exist?  And, since God supposedly created everything, then he MUST have created sin as well.  If he did not create sin, then who/what did?  If sin was not created by God then other, equal, powers of creation are in force and one must logically conclude that there is more than one God.

[Abstract Harmony]

How could we choose something that does not exist?  And, since God supposedly created everything, then he MUST have created sin as well.  If he did not create sin, then who/what did?  If sin was not created by God then other, equal, powers of creation are in force and one must logically conclude that there is more than one God.

Like death, sin doesnt' exist in itself.  Sin is the 'state' of the absence of God like death is the absence of life.  It is the rejection of God.   

[Torp]

Like death, sin doesnt' exist in itself.  Sin is the 'state' of the absence of God like death is the absence of life.  It is the rejection of God.

Well, if death doesn't exist then I certainly have no reason to be saved from it.

[Siberian Husky]

yeah....

[jeremyjchilds]

I am a 100% devoted Christian...Just to make that perfectly clear.

I tend to get dissilusioned with these kinds of discussions. For all other Christians out there, I don't think that arguing on a forum is going to really portray the depth of the truth of Christ. There is a place for intellectual debate...but I don't think it very effective in the field of evangelism.

Jesus made the most impact on the small one-on-one scale. If we want to be effective, then we simply need to realize that our truth "seems as folly" to unbelievers, Jesus knew this...and that is why we can't just say "how it is" and expect everyone to just understand right away. It just makes us look bigoted and argumentative.

Let's drop this subject...and strengthen our relationships with non-believers. We need to be more tactful than to simply try and "win" arguments. (when was the last time you "won" an argument with your spouse and everything was peachy...) Even if I could scientfically prove that Jesus was the son of GOd, it would make no difference to a hardened heart.

For all those of you who are questioning the validity of a personal relationship with God...Good, I understand that it doesent make any sense right now.

Keep on questioning, and I will be praying for you, that the Lord would reveal himself to you where you are at

With respect...



 

[chopintod]

Or like the fantasie impromptu topic where the guy ends every post with God Bless.

Satan bless,
Rob

HAHA! I REMEMBER that thread!  That was hilarious...that must've been half a year ago or more.

That guy was crazy...still not sure if he was serious or not.

Hehe, brought a smile to my face.

Terry

[leahcim]

I don't think that arguing on a forum is going to really portray the depth of the truth of Christ.

As Jeremy says, the debate is keeping the idea the truth has a depth alive, let it die.

Parts of it, even if they aren't true, are still a great idea - who can't concur with the idea  that a Bush often bursts into flames if it talks rubbish? If you don't believe that - he probably will - so point it out to him if you ever meet.

We're all non-believers. Tolerance? That's not going to save you from Lathe - the god of bad engineering is it?

[pianistimo]

lathe, the god of bad engineering?  that's the first time i heard that one!  kinda funny.  i suppose we could make up gods all around us.  it's really whatever we put before God.  like computers.  i go on first thing in the morning, sometimes, and feel put to shame by a friend who isn't a believer yet, because he said he took time in the morning to meditate.  i try to do this, but don't always.  prayer prepares you for the day.  you ask for help.  people don't get many things they could from God because they don't ask.  did you know HE controls the entire universe.  what if you knew you had His help at any moment?  if you have faith, you believe this.  then, you don't worry.  you know everything is in His hands, and even if the day doesn't go well, you can at least say - by His strength i'll make it.  by our own strength, we can do nothing!  He makes our hearts beat.  our breath.  our life.  He can take it away at any instant, yet He chooses many to live so they can learn to see his great mercy and kindness to those that don't even know Him.

during the day, we often see attacks against us (whether personally, on our family, state, nation, president) - and God also helps us deal with these on a spiritual level.  IF you don't believe in God, there is a much higher level of frustration because you take it all personally.  i'm thinking in particular of certain threads in which people have taken offense.  with the bible, it says that we should learn to hand all these things to God and let Him take care of it (after all, He's ABLE) then, we don't have to retaliate, or say nasty things about the person who said nasty things to us.  there's no need.  we have a mediator, or someone who speaks for us to God himself.  even if we are accused (unjustly) we are innocent to God because in the worst scenario we are forgiven, and in the best we are known to be innocent anyway. 

if love is patient, kind, longsufferring, not envious, ...etc. etc. that means that we are able to take a wrong and make it right.  that's really maturity.  parents, if they retaliated everytime a child did something they didn't like, would be sort of like their own children.  we have to control our urges and impulses to hit the nearest tree (so to speak).  often, we only hurt ourselves, anyway, if we try to hurt someone else.  even with our own personal families we can practice this.  say, if your own parent is not mature and says things to irritate you, you can surprise them and not argue or fret, but do something 'out of the blue' nice.  you'll be surprised at the reaction.  often, it's apology after some thought.  or, behavior that you were hoping for.

[leahcim]

lathe, the god of bad engineering?  that's the first time i heard that one!  kinda funny.

Some believe we mock him at our peril.

Seriously though - I'm glad you did mock it though, because that is better than taking any religion seriously for or against. It means you personally experienced and fully understood exactly why I'd be rolling around clutching my sides if I read your posts talking about God.

i suppose we could make up gods all around us.

You already have. There are more gods than you can shake a stick at.

IF you don't believe in God, there is a much higher level of frustration because you take it all personally.

How would you know that?

[yamagal]

I think the argument would probably revolve around the holy trinity, god, jesus, and holy spirit.  The claim is that all three are one and have always been one.  Therefore, with jesus always being there, anyone saved would have been saved through him...sort of.

Just thinking out loud, I don't really know how to resolve that contradiction.  I do like your line of thinking though.

The answer (aside from blowing in the wind) will always revolve around faith.  Despite all contradiction or evidence to the contrary you must simply believe it to be true.

Jef

The trinity is a paradox we humans can't wrap our minds around because we think in terms of 3 dimensions.  God is extradimensional and from that standpoint the trinity makes sense.  See "The Extradimensional Nature of God" at
https://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/xdimgod.html for a discussion which may help shed some light on the concept.

[timothy42b]

The trinity is a paradox we humans can't wrap our minds around because we think in terms of 3 dimensions.  God is extradimensional and from that standpoint the trinity makes sense.  See "The Extradimensional Nature of God" at
https://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/xdimgod.html for a discussion which may help shed some light on the concept.

Only problem with this is that the early Christians didn't believe in the trinity.  Part of this doctrine was set by the Council of Nicaia in the late 300's AD, when they established the early version of the Nicene Creed, and there was heavy political pressure from the Emperor Constantine.  A few hundred years later they added the line "proceeded from the Father AND THE SON," which hadn't existed, as the concept of Trinity developed further.  And before you go blaming this on the Roman Catholics, remember that they WERE the Christian church, from the beginning until historically fairly recently. 

[pianistimo]

dear leahcim,

i don't mock anything that God makes, but i do mock things that man makes.  why?  because it is bound to disintegrate even if it is the best made thing since the pyramids.  my dad is an engineer, but it doesn't solve the problem of people getting along.  it does however get water to flow from a well to another point.  and, as they've been discovering, the romans had a pretty good system of water flow into the colloseum they build (to make it be flooded and able to hold navy battles for people to watch).  these seem great - until you realize they can be used for good or evil.  the things God make stand forever - because He is good and His creation is good.  His creation is not God.  It is good.  we can use it.  but - often for evil in our times.  for instance weaponry.  of course, our nation would have been third world many years ago if we did not defend ourselves - but at the same time - if our world was more peaceful - we would see people developing crops and not weapons of mass destruction.  not competing, but in unison.  only God can bring this at His Son's second coming.  I look forward to peace that is not man made.

I'm glad you agree there are many gods.  Not that you have to agree with everything i say.  Of course, everyone has different opinions of what is light/dark, good/evil, etc.  but many don't realize they are sometimes RULED by them.  they are unaware of the effects that a particular religion or god is effecting on their mind.

And, lastly, i was baptized (water immersion) when i was 24.  I didn't suddenly change character, but over time, after making a committment to God (as at marriage) i decided that I would put His Words into effect in my life as much as possible (with His help).  many times i have been blessed by doing this, and when i haven't done what i know is right, i have experienced the natural curses that come from doing things 'my way.'  it reminds me of the song "i'll do it my way."  well, you can try.  but it doesn't go very well.  David, the psalmist, wrote songs that praised God for his help.  He often asked God for help on specific problems in his life.  God always answered (whether sooner or later).  This type of help is what i'm talking about when i say a TRUE GOD, POWERFUL GOD, ABLE TO SAVE GOD, and MIGHTY GOD.  As elijah proved to ahab - other gods are mere figurines.

[6ft 4]

is it true that all sins r forgiven?

does this mean that i'll still be going to heaven even though i perform heresy on a regular basis?

[yamagal]

Only problem with this is that the early Christians didn't believe in the trinity.  Part of this doctrine was set by the Council of Nicaia in the late 300's AD, when they established the early version of the Nicene Creed, and there was heavy political pressure from the Emperor Constantine.  A few hundred years later they added the line "proceeded from the Father AND THE SON," which hadn't existed, as the concept of Trinity developed further.  And before you go blaming this on the Roman Catholics, remember that they WERE the Christian church, from the beginning until historically fairly recently. 

That is very interesting.  I will have to study on that one.  What I've been taught is that the concept of the trinity may be gleaned from the scriptures, though the word itself is nowhere to be found in them.

[lostinidlewonder]

is it true that all sins r forgiven?

does this mean that i'll still be going to heaven even though i perform heresy on a regular basis?

If you hide behind the cross and sacrifice of Jesus Christ your sins will be forgiven. But what does that actually mean? To be forgiven is automatic if your mind is set and you understand why and how.

Every single person who has lived a life on earth sins, even those who are baptised still sin. However I would believe that a baby/child is sinless however because of their innocent of mind. However as our minds increase in complexity and we are forced to find our meaning in life, that is when sin comes to harass us.

How we make decision to deal with sin will make us realise if we are forgiven or not. Still how could I say that those that never think about sin will not be forgiven. I cannot! Gods judgement is perfect, no one will be felt that they have been deal with unfairly. Each and every person will accept the judgement God hands to them without any miniscule amount of evidence to push it the other way. God is perfect after all and everything done by God is perfect. It is pretty much as simple as that but impossible to fully understand.

[steve jones]

Wow, really interesting thread! You dont get these on every forum 


I was born a protestant christian, yet as an adult I have never had any draw towards the church. That isnt to say that I dont have faith, I just dont look towards religion to express it. I do believe in JC, though I dont feel I have any idea who he really was in life.

I hope I dont offend anyone by the following, and if I do please understand that I only say this to help communicate my own beliefs:

Imo religion is control. Its politics. Today there are many wordly factors that keep us, the masses, in check. But in the past, the iron rod was the threat of the church, of hell. Religion is also used a purpose. Just look at the muslim extremists, IRA etc. Find a group of people who are living in poor conditions, then give them a reason to fight and express their anger... that is the role of religion to many.

Its all way to contrived for my liking. I cant imagine anything further from the devine!

On the plus side, I do believe that religions can be great as community institutions. In religion, people can feel a sense of belonging and unity. Something that is difficult to find elsewhere. I guess in this sense the correlation between religion and football isnt as far fetched as it might initially sound!


In my own belief system, I believe in a higher power, I believe that 'we are not alone' etc. I believe in the human soul.

But I also believe in the delussions of morality. Im not convinced that the way I act on earth with have any impact on the big picture, let alone my particular afterlife (if such a thing exsists). I often think or it as if we are just frogs in a pond - the frog has no comprehesion of the world around it, it isnt capable of such. In the same way, we cant possibly comprehend the 'big picture', yet we all feel it in our own individual ways.


With regards to the original poster:

I dont understand how a person could have a relationship with Christ or God. Thats not to say I mock it at all, I just dont personally 'get' all that. I think the human mind is a complex instrument, and it will allow people to believe what ever they need to in order to forefill their life requirements.

Maybe one day I will be eating those words!

PS. Without knowing any of you very well, Im not 100% sure how you will take this post! If this stuff is offensive to anyone, just let me know and I'll get rid of the relevant parts.

[timothy42b]

That is very interesting.  I will have to study on that one.  What I've been taught is that the concept of the trinity may be gleaned from the scriptures, though the word itself is nowhere to be found in them.

Yes, that is the way I see it too.  The word is not in the Bible.  It is possible to interpret many passages as supporting the concept.  It is also possible to interpret them as meaning something else.  This poses a problem.  One could wish the writers had simply stated it more clearly, but that is not the case.  Presumably this is because these are concepts that evolved over time. 

[6ft 4]

I believe in the human soul.

Yep its called the brain.

[pianistimo]

just as we have a brain to use for music (and look for autograph manuscripts to prove which interpretation is the best) we can also use it to research the truest Words of God through original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.  the early translations are much different than the later.

[pianistimo]

why else would the Son have to ascend to the Father, before the Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost?  i think it is because they (Father and Son are in agreement) and wanted to share the Holy Spirit (coming from God) before it was given also to man.  Of course, Christ had the Holy Spirit probably at some form at birth (since he was conceived by God/Holy Spirit).  But, He gave us an example of being baptized which He explained as being 'born again' of Spirit.  Why would the dove light on him - and His Father say 'This is my Beloved Son, in whom i am well pleased'  - if He did not do the Words of His Father.  i think Christ showed obedience to all the things that we are required to do - yet did them perfectly, without sin.  We, on the other hand, are sinful, and cannot possibly fulfill every requirement - so He gives us the Holy Spirit (through baptism and laying on of hands) as a sign of His committment to help us think the way He thinks.  By reading His word as closely as possible to the original text. 

[steve jones]

Yep its called the brain.

Possibly, possibly.

But I do find it difficult to believe that a human is little more than engineering. There is something else - the soul, the life force... call it what you will. I cant believe that people are just machines.

I dont however believe that the soul has any influence on an individuals character. Brain chemistry 100% as far as I can tell. Maybe in the future we will have a greater insight into such things, but somehow I doubt it.

[Torp]

There is something else - the soul, the life force... call it what you will.

Is the soul separate from the body?

[steve jones]

I think its impossible to even attempt an answer to that question, if Im to respond with all sincerity. It impossible to substantiate any religious / spiritual belief system, let alone get down and dirty with the details.

So, to answer you question I have no clue. I just believe that there is something that causes life, beyond the mechanics of the body. Having witnessed the death of several family members, I can say that I definately felt 'something' was gone.

Lol, and I came here to talk about piano music!  I guess you can never tell where the ole WWW will take you.

[Torp]

I think its impossible to even attempt an answer to that question, if Im to respond with all sincerity. It impossible to substantiate any religious / spiritual belief system, let alone get down and dirty with the details.

I agree with you.

So, to answer you question I have no clue. I just believe that there is something that causes life, beyond the mechanics of the body. Having witnessed the death of several family members, I can say that I definately felt 'something' was gone.

I don't have a clue (or proof might be a better word) either.  I believe, i.e. have faith, that there is more to me than just my physical body.  While some believe that my soul is the creation of, and in the ownership of, a god, I choose to believe differently.

Lol, and I came here to talk about piano music!  I guess you can never tell where the ole WWW will take you.

Yes, it can get quite interesting at times.

[steve jones]

Tell you what though Torp - if you'd car to wait, say, 65 years (fingers crossed) Id be happy to fill you in with all the gory little details!

Seriously thought, great topic. This thread could have gone DOWN, but it has infact become quite fascinating.

[Torp]

Tell you what though Torp - if you'd car to wait, say, 65 years (fingers crossed) Id be happy to fill you in with all the gory little details!

I'm sure I'll be gone before 65 years is up so it will probably be me getting back to you.

Seriously thought, great topic. This thread could have gone DOWN, but it has infact become quite fascinating.

Typically I have found that these types of threads go through phases.  People express their ideas civilly until someone starts attacking people instead of ideas.  Then it goes down the drain until people figure out that should chill and then everyone backs off to be repeated again.

Jef

[steve jones]

What, a religious discussion with people attacking each other? Never 

Well, I shall keep my fingers crossed that this one will remain civil (although I dont know why because Im not in the slightest be superstitious!).

[6ft 4]

The fact is if someone says they genuinely believe someone could live in a whale for more than a day then surely its not surprising personal insults occur.

[pianistimo]

i can believe it, because a whale has a mighty big stomach.  there's room in there, albeight kinda scrunched and have to keep head above seaweed.  the description of him being inside the whale was not pleasant - in fact 'he fainted away.' as he was passing out, his prayer came to God and  he praised God despite his circumstances ('salvation is from the Lord') the lord commanded the fish and he was vomited onto dry land.  despite his circumstances, he had faith that God could save him.

now if this piece of info is not true, then neither is Christ's being in the grave three days and three nights because often in the new testament the analogy is made 'just as jonah was in the belly of the whale.'  it was to be 'a sign'  (something VERY UNUSUAL and not to happen freqently or ever again).  i have no idea if any other person has been swallowed by a whale, and realize there is no other  Christ who died, was in the grave three days and nights, and then was ressurrected. 

it SEEMS like foolishness to us, but God can do anything He wants!  no matter how ridiculous it sounds to us.

[steve jones]

Thats nothing, I once lived inside a mackrel for 3 weeks, only to be rescued when my cat got peckish 

Sorry, jesting! I actually dont have the knowledge to comment (seriously) on this story, so will leave to those in the know.


Pianistimo,

Do you believe bible stories to be literal?

[6ft 4]

rofl thats hilarious.

but yeh pianistimo is right if God's omnipotent then he can do what he wants i guess.

[pianowelsh]

Cool - were back on this one again!  YOU CANT love the Lord Jesus Christ too much.. its actually impossible, and if you read half the new testament letters you will find Paul praying constantly for the early Christians that their Love for God and oneanother would increase more and more (the word used means that it would continue without end).  What I want to ask you is How can you not Love Jesus Christ?  The logical and rational response to Jesus (having done what he did for us) is to fall at his feet and worship him with everything youve got.  he is the only way by which men may be saved (sorry ketchup God you dont cut the mustard) and frankly without God we as a human race are without hope (summary early part of Romans).  If God had made a deal with the world and said ok im going to destroy the earth because its been fouled up so badly... however anyone who can pay me a billion pounds cash will be saved - most of us would give up because we would never even beable to dream of paying the debt, some people may scrimp and pour everything they had into paying it, a very few might sit their arrogently thinking im ok i can afford it God will be pleased with me.  TRUTH of the situation is the price is bigger than anyone on the planet could ever pay.  Thats why God sent Jesus to pay it on our behalf.  The cool thing is although its the greatest price that could ever be paid God made it available to all - the poor the destitute, the abused and addicted, the middle class prosperous, the managerial classes, rulers and heads of State - EVERYONE.  'All who call on the name of the lord in truth'  will be saved.  Do we deserve God to pay our debt for us?? NO!!!!!!!!!!! we owe him big time in the first place - remember.  So you mean to say God that i cant buy you off with all my good works and all my money and success and my awesome doubled thirds??? Absolutely Not! - comes back the reply.  Nothing we can do will impress God.  he created the entire cosmos in 6 days - we are SO small, frankly its incredible that he is concerned about us.  Noone can boast before God and think that they are going to be saved because of anything good in them.  there is nothing 'Good' in us  - we are dark by nature and haters of God.  That is precisely whay it is so incredible that Jesus was obedient unto death on a cross for us.  He even forgave the guys who put nails through his hands for crying out loud'Father forgive them, they no not what they do'!  Ok so God sent Jesus to pay a debt wow big deal you may say.  OK lets personalise this.... He came to pay for YOUR sin, your debt, your wickedness, selfishness, unforgiveness, bitterness,rebellion,pride etc etc etc etc He came to pay for MY sin - I can only tell you that when the truth of this dawns on your soul and upon your conscience you WILL understand that it is impossible to love Jesus Christ too much.  You may be saying to yourselves 'that'll never happen. I don't want to have anything to do with Jesus Christ or God - this guys a lunatic'.  surprise the apostle Paul predicted your response before you were even born! But it makes not one jot of difference.  The debt is real, The world WILL pass away, Jesus did die, he did rise from the dead and ascend into heaven, AND hes coming back.  He has said in his word that when he returns it will be in triumph and for the purpose of judgement (to finish things).  In that day he has said that ALL flesh (meaning all humanity that has every lived) shall see his Glory, Every knee WILL bow and EVERY tongue WILL confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.  For those that know and Love him and trust him as Lord and saviour, their confession will be unto salvation and they will go to be with him in Glory.  For those who are still in rebellion with God, they Will confess him but it is too late for salvation, they will confess unto desruction.   The Lord is near RIGHT now call upon him while he may be found. All who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, he is mercifull and strong to save.  Today is the day of salvation - dont put off till tomorrow what you can do today.
Every blessing IN Christ.

[pianowelsh]

Dear Tharcozaag, I just read your post and have to reply.  Free will - OK! When we confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour we are given of the Holy spirit - its part of God's preordained package deal for the believer.  Part of it's work is our sanctfication and regeneration ( simply if not perfectly put as the clean up job Or restoratin job), this includes the renewing of our minds and a gradual out working of the Holy spirit which,( Phil1:6 says will go on till Jesus returns or our physical death whichever comes first) ultimately conforms us into the likeness of Christ so that when we see him we shall be like him.  You may be thinking where is he going with this but its all important because as a Christian our freewill is free but its free because of the working of the Holy spirit. before we were made alive in christ we could only choose darkness (Romans says) but bu the HS we have been made alive in Christ which enable us to choose to do good and live in a way which pleases God.  Do we still choose to sin sometimes - unfortunately yes, and sin brings death.  But as we grow in God we learn to obey him more and choose to do his will not ours.  the perfect solution is not to have free-will from a worldly perspective but to let the mind which was in Christ be in us so that we would do the will of God perfectly.  I hope that answered something of your question.  Im not familiar with what T Aquinas teaches on that one but i think God makes it pretty clear in is word. basically Romans is one of the best books you could look at to really grapple with it, paul really understood the subject so actually several of his letters may be helpfull to your understanding of it.  Most of what i have said comes from these directly orindirectly.

[pianistimo]

i agree wholeheartedly with pianowelsh because in the bible it explains that who is actually in 'slavery' are those who are enslaved to sin.  this is typifying every kind of addiction that is out there.  and, you will probably agree there are many people who are addicted.  they just don't realize that they are enslaved to sinning.  the true freedom that we experience is joy.  you can't get any from sin- no matter how hard you try.  the law of gravity would be harder to break than getting true joy from sin.  but, first you have to read the bible to even understand what it is (for the average person may not have even read it).  many people try to think for others, and say that the bible is merely stories.  in actuality, it's a book from God to us through men who had the Holy Spirit.  every word is truth (because God's word is truth) and you can easily prove or disprove it (if you want to try) by seeing if the ideas actually work or if the prophecies have come true.  EVERY WORD has been proven true.  there is no other book like it.  none that explains the beginning of our world as we know it and progresses through time (so that we, his children, get a sense of belonging).  there is no other loving book such as this.

i would compare it to a parent saving up family knowledge, history, advice - and writing it all down so that we can benefit from reading it whenever they are not around.  and, when they are around, they can add to it.  they want the best for us, and not to control us - but to make us aware of where we came from, where we might go, and even give us some ideas for making good decisions.

in my personal experience God is real.  that's hard to prove to anyone else.  so, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.  the more people on piano forum that say what they understand (even if it is a small word in a timely way) may never know how many people they may save from death.  not our physical death (which will happen to all of us at one time or another) but spiritual death now and later.

[steve jones]

I think the big issue I have with Christianity (and probably most other religions), is that the entire thing seems to be based on a book, written and interpreted by people! I dont see anything devine in this. Infact, this doesnt stray to far from the definition of herisey!

Honestly, I dont mean to mock. I have spent many an hour pondering religion - I just dont get it. It fascinates me, totally, but I cant even pretend to understand it. The cold hard facts are too strong to ignore - religion is control, its manipulation of the masses. Its like those suicide Muslim guys, who're convinced that they are doing gods work by blowing up people! Its quite clear that they're being manipulated by politician / clerics, and certainly not guided by the allmighty.

Not trying to compare anyone here to a suicide bomber! But Im sure you get the point. The upper crust will always use something to control the masses, and this seems to be the only thing that makes any sense out of religion, for me atleast.

Thats not to say I cant understand what individuals might gain from following a recognised faith. Im quite sure there is MANY benefits to submitting to a religion. And its possible that religion satisfies many subconscious needs too, that people arent even aware of - the need to belong, for guideness, purpose etc.

If someone could attempt to explain it to me, in laymens terms ofcourse. How can an otherwise rational, logical person believe whole heartedly in something with no sustantiating evidence?

Id also love to know what you think of the various current faiths and demonimations? Surely even something devine cant withstand thousands of years of human tampering and polution?

[pianowelsh]

It can steve because the word of god is Living and active.  What you dont seem to understand is that Christianity is most definately not about a book - yes we believe the bible but you can know every word in the bible and at least nominally agree with the concepts and still be completely missing the point. Its notabout knowledge its not about works its not about control. I mean God is in control anyway whether or not litle you or me surrender to him, the God who created the universe is in control anyway.  Im sorry you believe that Christianity is a means of crowd control. I ve spoken with so many people who believe that but its really flawed because God is not about mindless obedience. God is Love (which is where were very different to fanatical muslim suicide bombers - you will never find a Christian suicide bomber) and the obedience of the saints is not a reflex passive motion of the masses, a means of controling world politics (actually politics is one of the most Godless subjects out at the moment - unfortunately).  Christian obedience is a natural response of Love for God and because of all that he has done for us - its not mysterious and suspicious/covert.  The reason we can believe in something we cant see (Faith) is because we have been changed inwardly where God sees.  Our hearts have come to know the love of God in a real and experiential way.  If you watch a man whose in Love when he's on his own, he will be distracted his mind will be on one thing only he will be motivated towards acts of showing affection etc Now when you see him on his own can you see any substantive evidence or cause for him to act in the way he does... well No. But you can see a quality radiating out of him which is in a way inexplicable and its because he knows he is Loved and is captured by his own Love for the other person. we see the out working  - we dont see the force. Similarly with God. We Love him and are caused to have Joy peace and faith in him because he has revealled his love to us - we know we are loved unconditionally by God and our only possible response is to reciprocate our Love. The outworkings of which are seen in obedience and our Love one for another - Does that make anything any clearer... I hope so

[steve jones]

Hi Pianowelsh,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. Im glad you took my post as it was intended, and not as 'against the grain'. Yes, you have made things a little clearer for me. But let me address a few things:


"I mean God is in control anyway whether or not litle you or me surrender to him, the God who created the universe is in control anyway. "

It is statements like this that continue to baffle me (in a good way). I dont understand how people can have such faith, purely on the say so of people with a clear agenda. I have never experienced anything that I have construde as being divine - Iv never linked the dots quite that way!


"you will never find a Christian suicide bomber"

Very true. But I dont consider the IRA to be much better. Once again, an example of religion being used as a manipulative tool to recruit young, disillussioned men into backing a faithless cause.



"Im sorry you believe that Christianity is a means of crowd control."

I honestly do, yes. When I hear about Catholics burning Protestants as heritics, for not conforming to THEIR political agendas... well, it makes me feel ashamed of my culture. Unfortunately, I am cursed with a critical mind - to always take the evidence into account. And it seems blatently clear to me that thoughout history, religion and peoples faith has been exploited in the most evil and inhumane ways.

I mean, when did God say we must murder each other?


"We Love him and are caused to have Joy peace and faith in him because he has revealled his love to us - we know we are loved unconditionally by God and our only possible response is to reciprocate our Love."

Have you ever questioned this notion? If I felt that way, I would think it merely the chemistry of my brain. How can you say that God has revealed his love to you? What do you mean, 'he has showed his love to you'?


Again, thanks for addressing my questions. I dont mean to be rude or offensive... I honestly want to 'get' this