What's next after the blues scale?

[Bob]

I teach my kids the blues scale, have them improvise.... What should I teach after the blues scale?  Is there a standard progression of concepts/skills for teaching jazz improvisation?

[ted]

I don't have a clue about what is "right" or "wrong" to learn. If you're stuck for scales and chords, there are actually 352 of them, counting a silence and ranging between a single note and the twelve note chromatic scale. Why not just work your way through the lot and decide for yourself how you will use them ? That's what I did.

[goose]

As ever, Ted has his own idiosyncratic approach    He's right, of course. Scales and chords are simply combinations of notes. 352? Maybe. But that sounds a little like simple permutations to me rather than musical voicings, of which there must be many more.

I improvised for years using just my ear (well, my hands, too). But jazz is a language. And if you want to 'speak it' you need to know the right notes (or perhaps 'appropriate notes' would be better). Jazz musicians have always been on the lookout for deeper knowledge and different ways of looking at harmony and theory. Bird and Miles studied classical harmony (Stravinsky, Ravel, et al). These days, we're spoilt for choice with good books explaining approaches to jazz improvisation.

For those seeking some kind of method that is not rigid, I recommend Randy Halberstadt's 'Metaphors for the Musician' without hesitation. I'm really surprised I don't see other people raving about his book, too (which is why I mention him when the opportunity arises).

Learning 'which scale goes with which chord' is useful, Bob. But your students should realise that they are one and the same thing. Anyway, all scales and chords offer are a selection of 'notes which work' in a given context. Your ear is the best judge. But when you try different approaches (chord tones and neighbours, scales, licks, etc), you'll give your ear more ideas to work with and use.

Best,
Goose

[ted]

Goose:

Yes, that's right. I meant types (partitions of 12) without regard for pitch changes and inversions (voicings). It's just a crude start. Once voicings come into it the voyage of discovery begins. I used it only as a guide to personal vocabulary formation because it seemed logical and as good as any other I had seen. In the end the only rule I have is my ear. As you implicitly say, if you went through every way of playing every combination you'd be dead before reaching the end.

And then, when all is said and done, chords and scales are not almighty static entities which stand alone anyway. They relate to everything else through changes, progressions and so on. Indeed, these days, a "change" often seems more significant to me than its individual combinations - it has an aural effect which is completely different to, and musically greater than, the sum of its components.

[goose]

I agree. Seeing progressions as units (the numerous ii-Vs in a typical standard, like All The Things You Are, for example) was a big step for me in understanding how the harmony functions. Definitely, chords do not exist in a vacuum. And voice leading between chords is a large part of good voicings.

I do really respect your approach to doing things your way, Ted. But for those interested in a systematic approach which will lay the groundwork for good voicings (and for visualising which chord tones are contained in which voicings), I recommend Phil DeGreg's book.

See: https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,9259.msg94089.html#msg94089

Best,
Goose

[hgiles]

Oh no!! Another one teaching the blues scale to beginners!  Bob, I think it's a mistake.  When's the last time you heard anyone you consider a good player play the blues scale?  C'mon when?  The blues scale is the mark of a beginner.

You are much better off teaching the pentatonic scale (in other words leave out the flat 5 from your blues scale).  It will work just as well over a blues progression and give the students more mileage over a traditional chord progression. 

Why pentatonic scale?  It gives the student 5 viable note choices to analyze for themselves where and when they fit over a progression.    Once they've got those 5 under control you can move up to the major scale (7 note choices).

From the major scale go to the diminished scale (8 pitch classes) -- find out when/ where/how/if they fit. 

Then finish it out with the chromatic scale...

[hgiles]

Bob, I didn't mean to sound harsh.  But I cringe every time I hear the blues 'scale'.

[ptmidwest]

Often it's the beginners who WANT to play blues and so they are eager to learn a blues scale.  If they have fun with these sounds, then they will go to the piano on their own.  Often one thing leads to other things...wink wink

[hgiles]

Yeah, I suppose you're right about the blues scale fostering interest, but let's be honest.  If they are truly interested they will just as easily grasp the concept of 'blues' being a 3 chord tune structure.   Learning the 'blues' as a scale is the lazy musicians approach.  And it really sounds quite amateurish to hear it played as a scale.

Listen to Oscar Peterson play the blues.  He can get through an entire chorus of blues and play only two notes and be absolutely swinging from the rafters!  And you will never hear the blues 'scale'.

[ptmidwest]

I agree with you, hgiles.  I was thinking in terms of the melodies they play, not the scales.  Luckily, practicing and playing a blues scale is not much fun. 

But it has been helpful (for me, anyway) to SHOW them a blues scale so that they have a reference:  they can choose from these notes in their improvs. 

If nothing else, it's voluntary ear training!

[lostinidlewonder]

Jazz unlike classical music is very open to how it is played. This variation is based on RHYTHM. So develop your sense and knowledge of jazz rhythm. Work with the Walking Bass Lines in the LH with RH supporting it with Chords + improvisation on scales. Muck around with rhythms, Chord progressions and work on the standard 12/16 bar blues. I find beginners of jazz piano which i teach quite a lot every week learn the most from understanding the rhythms of jazz and mastering simple walking bass lines and using their imagination as to what goes over that. As some have mentioned that of course comes from a lot of listening to the music!

[dlu]

Have a look here:

https://www.geocities.com/Athens/Marble/9607/magicpiano.html

There are a bunch of strange and "unknown" scale types here, which might be interesting to teach.

DLu