Buying a grand piano

[pabuyer]

We are in the market for a grand piano.  I play and my children are beginning to take lessons and are showing some promise.  The piano would be equally for me and the children.  We are looking at something around 5'6", but probably cannot go much bigger than 5'8".  The more we learn, the more confused we are.  I have played many pianos during our search, both new and used.  I think at this point, I would like to stay away from pianos manufactured in Indonesia.  We are willing to spend in the $10K to $15K range if the piano merits it.  Any thoughts on Yamaha G-2, a comparable Kawai (pre-Indonesia manufactured), Knabe, Sohmer, Estonia, Steinway? 
Any thoughts on how to make this process a little less confusing?
Any thoughts on a Petrof V (if we're going a little smaller?)

[sonatainfsharp]

This is the best advice I have ever received...

How the piano sounds in the store is how it will sound for ever.

The salespeople tell you that you can do "this, that, and the other thing" to fine tune the instrument, but once it settles after 2-6 months, it will be exactly how it came out of the factory again. So, if you don't like it in the store, you won't like it after they do "this, that, and the other thing" either.

[Axtremus]

We are in the market for a grand piano. I play and my children are beginning to take lessons and are showing some promise. The piano would be equally for me and the children. We are looking at something around 5'6", but probably cannot go much bigger than 5'8". The more we learn, the more confused we are. I have played many pianos during our search, both new and used. I think at this point, I would like to stay away from pianos manufactured in Indonesia. We are willing to spend in the $10K to $15K range if the piano merits it. Any thoughts on Yamaha G-2, a comparable Kawai (pre-Indonesia manufactured), Knabe, Sohmer, Estonia, Steinway?
Any thoughts on how to make this process a little less confusing?

Yamaha G-2 : Must be used. They don't make G-2 anymore. Currently in production is the C-2, and that's made in Japan. If I remember right, the C-2 is 5'8".

Kawai (pre-Indonesia): I do not think Kawai has had any of its grand piano made in Indonesia, ever! Something comparable to the G-2 (used) would be a KG-2 (used). The KG-2 was made in Japan, and is no longer made. Currently in production is the RX-2, and, again, that's made in Japan. The RX-2 is 5'10", longer than what you said would be the maximum length you can accommodate.

Depending on where you are, you may or may not get either piano (new C-2 or new RX-2) for 15,000 USD. But if you have to go for a smaller piano anyway as a matter of room size constraint, Yamaha C-1 and Kawai RX-1 will be smaller and cheaper.

Knabe and Sohmer are both made by Samick in Korea (at least I think there are still being made in Korea today). Assuming you go for a new one below 6 feet, their chances of coming in below 15,000 USD are significantly better than the Japanese instruments.

Estonia - the Estonia 168 (5'6") is the only one that size-wise would fit your stated requirement. If you are in the US, your chance of getting a new Estonia 168 for under 15,000 USD is not good. (And, no, the 168 is the smallest and cheapest of Estonia-branded piano made today... there is none smaller/cheaper.) I doubt there are that many used Estonia pianos floating around because Estonia doesn't produce that many piano to begin with, and its pianos weren't imported in any substantial number until may be 5~10 years ago.

Stienway - forget it, 15,000 USD will not get you much of a musical instrument if the name "Steinway" is on it and you want a grand piano, not even a used one.

To make the process less confusing:

Play the pianos, and pick the one that sounds/feels the best to you and cost you the least amount of money at the same time.

If you end up zeroing in on a used piano, consider getting an independent technician (one not affiliated with the seller/dealer) help you check it out (it's like hiring an independent mechanic to help you check out a used car before you buy).

That's it.

Good luck.

[Glyptodont]

Unfortunately, I must disagree with the person who said, "how it sounds in the store is how it will sound forever."

Larry Fine in his THE PIANO BOOK strongly criticizes this theory.  Two things--

1)  Is the piano well tuned?  One might imagine, if it is on sale, the store would have it perfectly tuned.  Unfortunately, that's not always the case, esp. since they are probably going to tune it right before they deliver it to a buyer.  (Why tune it twice?)

If you try playing a few bars on several different pianos in a showroom, some may be well tuned and some may be out of tune to various degrees.  This leads to comparing apples to lemons, so to speak.  It distorts one's judgment.

2)  The features of the room.  Or should I say, of the HALL.  A showroom for grand pianos is often a large, high-ceilinged room that is going to be many times the size of any room in your home.  Some such showrooms are even a bit barn-like.  There will be odd acoustics in there, and even echoes.  Larry Fine in his book says that such a room tends to make all pianos sound about the same-- sort of boomy and echo-y.  The best you could say, such a hall-like room is an adverse situation toward highlighting differences in the pianos. 

Best thing to do would be to bring a skilled pianist, amateur or pro, along with you when making your final choice.  Trusting that their ear is better.

If the poster is himself or herself a skilled, long-time pianist, my apologies.

[iumonito]

Just in case you have any doubt about who to believe, saying that the piano will sound the way it does at the store is entirely shortsighted.  Money is involved in the answer, though.

Most sellers of pianos keep their instrument in sad disrepair, except for the really expensive ones.  It is a little bit of the "ugly house first" of real estate agents.

The piano you buy may well have all the potential in the world.  Here is the catch, though: voicing and fixing up a piano costs money, and it takes some serious knowledge (which by the way I do not presume to possess) to know which pianos will sound good and which pianos will stay crappy.  You need to add to the sale price the fixing price to get the real price of the piano.  An art.

Unless you have a trusted rebuilder/technician that will get the piano to sound the way you want it, you do well to restrict yourself to the few pianos that will sound well to you.  Even there, though, you have the risk of a piano that is fixed just for show, but which will deteriorate rapidly (often the case with Japanese wet pianos).

Good luck.