Do you charge for marking theory at home?

[yamaha]

Hi all

I have done Grade 6 and Grade 7 theory (ABRSM)with my current teacher and would now like to prepare for grade 8.  The trouble is that my teacher REFUSES to mark my work during the lesson and  I have to leave it with her and collect it the next week. She adds up how much time it takes her and charges me when she has done an hours worth of marking!    If this was at my request and she was prepared to mark in the lesson, I would totally expect to pay for her time but I would rather do it in the lesson.  Also, she has told me that she marks grades 1-5 in lesson time.  I happen to know that I am her only higher grade student so essentially, it is only me being charged 

I actually rang her this week and asked if we could start doing theory in the lesson and she refused. She said she needs to do it when her brain is fresh  and that she cant mark for long before her brain seizes up      ! 


Do all teachers charge for marking at home?  School teachers for example accept that their job includes marking/lesson plans to be done at home. (or am I wrong here? Do school teachers receive extra for additional work done at home?) 

One problem with home marking is that we then have to spend a lot of time in the next lesson going over my results anyway (usually half an hour) so I lose a lot of lesson time! In addition to this, by the time I see her again, I cant really remember what my reasoning was for a particular question as it may have been up to two weeks since I did the work 

It is also very expensive around exam time as I try to do 1 or 2 past papers a week which obviously takes about an hour (or more) to mark, so I have to pay for at least an hours marking AND my hour lesson nearly every week!! 

I am intersted to know if all/most teachers work this way.

Many thanks 

[m1469]

Hello yamaha, before I launch into this one, I would like to ask you a couple of questions:

How long have you been studying with this teacher?

Did you know what you would be getting into before you started (ie what you would be paying for)?

Did you have an agreement?


m1469

[whynot]

I have a theory (ha) that your level is getting too high for your teacher.  She refuses to check your work in front of you, but she'll talk to you about it after she's looked at it alone.   Maybe she needs that time to stay one step ahead of you.  This isn't a terrible thing, necessarily, but I think you should try to find out.  A tactful way would be to just ask if she would prefer that you use another tutor for theory work so you two could "focus" just on your playing in your lesson time.  If she needs a way out, she'll jump at that, and then you'll know without embarrassing her that that's the problem.  If she says she does want to keep doing theory with you, then I think the situation is fishy.  I would never (ever) charge my students for work outside the lesson.  All teachers spend time on behalf of each student outside the lesson.  And to correct it away from you, as you say, loses golden opportunities for questions as they naturally arise, which is a very efficient way to learn.  Well, keep us posted!
     

[abell88]

I don't charge for marking at home. I would rather mark it at home if there's a lot of it or if it's advanced...I feel that I'm wasting my student's time if I'm marking things during a lesson unless there's not much of it or I feel they really need me to go over it with them right away.

[lagin]

When I did like only a page/ week my teacher would mark it at the lesson--this is when I just started learning.  If we discuss theory during a lesson then I'm paying for it as my lesson time.  As I got more advanced, she marked it at home without charging me as the marking was time consuming and ate up lesson time.  I wrote any questions I had in the book and she wrote the answers to them, but if one of my questions required a detailed response, she would write, "ask me about this at your lesson."  Once I got into the really advanced grades, she recommended getting a separate theory teacher.  She said that she is qualified to do it, but she finds it too time consuming with her schedule as busy as it is (especially when she marks for free!)  I still take history with her though.  So each week I have a half hour theory lesson with another teacher, and hour history lesson with her, and then my actual piano lesson.  These lesson times I pay for.  Oh, and my new theory teacher marks at the lesson, because after all, it is a THEORY lesson.  And history requires no marking, she just quizzed and researches with me.

[pianonut]

dear yamaha,  whynot and the rest probably have it right.  the teacher sounds like she is not able to check it quickly enough.  but, checking it is part of YOUR learning process so if she is not there to explain it adequately, it is not as helpful to you.  maybe, as someone else pointed out, separate theory lessons would be money better spent for you (separate theory teacher).

most teachers that are teaching the higher levels should be just as competent at theory as playing, imo.

[yamaha]

Hi all 

Thanks for all the responses. 

Hello yamaha, before I launch into this one, I would like to ask you a couple of questions:

How long have you been studying with this teacher?

Did you know what you would be getting into before you started (ie what you would be paying for)?

Did you have an agreement?


m1469

  I moved to this teacher to do my grade 8 practical in 2001 and have since done DipLCM (practical) and grades 6 and 7 theory with her.

I didnt know the situation, the first time I took some theory to the lesson she said that she would mark it outside of the lesson and give it me back the following week, there was no mention of a charge until it was returned to me.  On a few occassions in the past I have asked if she would mark in the lesson as a one off because there was something I didnt understand/needed to be sure I was understanding a new subject correctly before doing too much and she always refuses.  On one occassion she did do it for me but made it very clear that she didnt want to.  She needed to refer to a book on this occassion (which is fine, I dont expect her to know everything) and I felt that she was embarressed, she kept saying things like "oh my brain doesnt work properly at this time of day (7:30pm) this is why I dont mark in the lesson" etc.

We dont have an agreement of any kind.

When I rang her about it this week she suggested that I take just a half hour lesson or come fortnightly to keep the costs the same but she still wont mark in the lesson.  The money is last on the list of reasons why Im not happy with this situation

.

I have a theory (ha) that your level is getting too high for your teacher. She refuses to check your work in front of you, but she'll talk to you about it after she's looked at it alone. Maybe she needs that time to stay one step ahead of you. This isn't a terrible thing, necessarily, but I think you should try to find out. A tactful way would be to just ask if she would prefer that you use another tutor for theory work so you two could "focus" just on your playing in your lesson time. If she needs a way out, she'll jump at that, and then you'll know without embarrassing her that that's the problem. If she says she does want to keep doing theory with you, then I think the situation is fishy. I would never (ever) charge my students for work outside the lesson. All teachers spend time on behalf of each student outside the lesson. And to correct it away from you, as you say, loses golden opportunities for questions as they naturally arise, which is a very efficient way to learn. Well, keep us posted!
 

I think that you may be right.  I did suggest that I could get another teacher which was when she suggested that I come fortnightly.    I pointed out that this wouldnt help with question/answer at marking time etc but she wont budge.  I have my lesson on a Monday and there was no lesson last Monday, I havnt seen her since I telephoned, I'm a little worried how she will be with me at the next lesson 

Thanks again everyone, this forum is great! 

[whynot]

The more I hear, the surer I am that it's just over her head.  She's not doing it this way because it takes too much time from your lessons.  I understand why some posters said they do that, but in this case, she'd rather see you take FEWER LESSONS than spend time on this with you!  She was embarrassed at having to look up something in front of you and made an excuse for it (I feel the same as you, that that's not a problem, but it was for her).  All the remarks about her brain needing to be fresh, not being able to do theory for long before it "seizes," what is that?  I'm amazed that she didn't agree when you suggested going to someone else, but maybe that's embarrassing, too.  So, what if you found a theory tutor (first) and then just told her?  Like, how you really need the longer one-on-one explanations for your theory papers, and this way "we" can focus on playing.  I mean, this is an important time for you, and you have a right to all the education you need (and are paying for!).  Wow, this has made me upset.  I really hope you can find a way to get what you're looking for.   

[anja]

As a piano teacher whose students often get over 95% on rudiments (basic theory as opposed to harmony lessons), I have to say I can see where your teacher is coming from. I do a much better job marking when I can peacefully do it between other tasks. My brain starts to tire if I do too many of any given question at once. Bear in mind, I am an excellent theory person. I got 95% on Harmony III and 89% on Harmony IV etc.

I can also see that theory teaching is too time-consuming for what I get paid. That's why I limit myself to students who are taking piano from me for the most part. I try to also mark in the lesson to lessen the amount of unpaid work. But it makes for a dull lesson. The student is watching me mark and I'm quietly putzing along. I think you should be overjoyed that anybody wants to help identify every little mistake you make even as you probably make them over and over. For example, leading tones failing to rise and parallel fifths plague some students endlessly. The only parts you will learn from in theory are your errors. Given the same question, you will get the parts you got right correctly the next time nine times out of ten.

I think she should have told you she would charge you. But if I were you I'd negotiate a lower rate for just marking as opposed to teaching you.

"Work with your teacher as opposed to against her is my suggestion."

Greetings, Anita

[whynot]

Anita, I definitely see your point, and obviously you are really good at teaching this and know what you're talking about.  I'm a teacher, also, and would not normally advocate anyone working against a teacher or going behind her back in some way.  But this particular teacher doesn't seem to be responsive to the student's situation, which is that there's been an ongoing desire/need for direct conversation about this theory work.  The student has requested many times that they spend time on this face-to-face and not just pass the papers back and forth:  the student writes the paper, teacher marks mistakes, student writes questions about old mistakes on the next paper, teacher writes answers to old questions and marks new mistakes...   If the set-up were working for the student, I wouldn't be suggesting anything about the teacher's possible lack of knowledge or how to work with that (and maybe that's not it, just a guess), but it's not working right now.   As someone whose own musical education was seriously neglected and mishandled by adults, I feel a very strong pull in favor of the student getting what she needs at this important point in her studies.  Hope I haven't given an unfair shake to the teacher in question or caused offense to any other teachers!!  I truly apologize if so.   

[yamaha]

As a piano teacher whose students often get over 95% on rudiments (basic theory as opposed to harmony lessons), I have to say I can see where your teacher is coming from. I do a much better job marking when I can peacefully do it between other tasks. My brain starts to tire if I do too many of any given question at once. Bear in mind, I am an excellent theory person. I got 95% on Harmony III and 89% on Harmony IV etc.

I can also see that theory teaching is too time-consuming for what I get paid. That's why I limit myself to students who are taking piano from me for the most part. I try to also mark in the lesson to lessen the amount of unpaid work. But it makes for a dull lesson. The student is watching me mark and I'm quietly putzing along. I think you should be overjoyed that anybody wants to help identify every little mistake you make even as you probably make them over and over. For example, leading tones failing to rise and parallel fifths plague some students endlessly. The only parts you will learn from in theory are your errors. Given the same question, you will get the parts you got right correctly the next time nine times out of ten.

I think she should have told you she would charge you. But if I were you I'd negotiate a lower rate for just marking as opposed to teaching you.

"Work with your teacher as opposed to against her is my suggestion."

Greetings, Anita

Hmm, I do see your point but I really do feel that she is not doing this to help me but because she is unable to mark in front of me.  She has told me I am the only one to do the higher grades and that she marks the lower grades herself in the lesson.

Also, I teach myself and am preparing for the DipABRSM in teaching ( you only need grade 6 theory for this) and I often take work home simply because a student has done pages and pages of work and they have also done plenty of practical.  I too feel it is boring for the student and if marking looks like it will consume an entire lesson, I ask if the student would like to play or for me to mark.  Granted, I have never had anyone do theory above Grade 5 but if I did, and I didnt feel confident, I would take it home and not charge.  Why should the student pay for the teachers inexperience?   

I do appreciate your input though and am not intending to offend your method. 

I have contacted a few teachers and havent found anyone that teaches past grade 5.  I suppose given that students only do grade 5 to gain access to grade 6 practical and then stop theory, that most teachers will be very, if not totally inexperienced at teaching the higher grades.

I have found someone that does theory via post (all grades and to post diploma)and although this doesnt initially sound any better than my present theory situation, each student is given a few hours a day between which they may telephone and he will also respond to email.  He promises a fast turnaround, returning work within a few days.  I have received the information and the teacher has sent me some some work to do which he will use to assess whether or not he thinks I am capable as he said that he will only take students who he thinks have the ability to pass    This initial work is free of charge and doesnt commit me to lessons so I have completed it and returned it today.  It is something to consider, what do you think?

Thanks again everyone 

[galonia]

Hmm, I do see your point but I really do feel that she is not doing this to help me but because she is unable to mark in front of me.  She has told me I am the only one to do the higher grades and that she marks the lower grades herself in the lesson.

Also, I teach myself and am preparing for the DipABRSM in teaching ( you only need grade 6 theory for this) and I often take work home simply because a student has done pages and pages of work and they have also done plenty of practical.  I too feel it is boring for the student and if marking looks like it will consume an entire lesson, I ask if the student would like to play or for me to mark.  Granted, I have never had anyone do theory above Grade 5 but if I did, and I didnt feel confident, I would take it home and not charge.  Why should the student pay for the teachers inexperience?   

I do appreciate your input though and am not intending to offend your method. 

I have contacted a few teachers and havent found anyone that teaches past grade 5.  I suppose given that students only do grade 5 to gain access to grade 6 practical and then stop theory, that most teachers will be very, if not totally inexperienced at teaching the higher grades.

I have found someone that does theory via post (all grades and to post diploma)and although this doesnt initially sound any better than my present theory situation, each student is given a few hours a day between which they may telephone and he will also respond to email.  He promises a fast turnaround, returning work within a few days.  I have received the information and the teacher has sent me some some work to do which he will use to assess whether or not he thinks I am capable as he said that he will only take students who he thinks have the ability to pass    This initial work is free of charge and doesnt commit me to lessons so I have completed it and returned it today.  It is something to consider, what do you think?

Thanks again everyone 

To be honest, I think I have to agree with your teacher - it would be almost impossible to mark higher grades of theory (i.e. anything about grade 5) during a piano lesson - when I used to teach, I'd mark the theory homework for students doing the lower theory grades during their piano lesson, but while they were playing - so I was listening to them play, and marking at the same time.  But for higher grades, how can I hear the harmonies and melodies they have written, while listening to their playing?  It is absolutely essential to have a separate lesson and/or a separate teacher.  However, I don't think it's fair to add up all the time spent marking, and then charge the student for it retrospectively - a student needs to know how much he or she has to pay beforehand (it's like saying, agree to buy these goods, and I'll tell you how much you owe me after you've bought it).

The theory-by-post thing can work - once I got past grade 6 AMEB (similar system of grades to ABRSM) theory, my teacher and I had hardly any contact - he said at that point, I should be able to learn independently.  I paid him a fee each term, and handed in work each week.  But he didn't set me any work either - I chose what work to do - so it was my responsibility to make sure I learnt all the stuff in the syllabus.  So he just said, make sure you can write these harmonies, and I worked through the textbook and handed in my exercises each week.  With form and history, he'd give me heaps of past papers, and I'd write a short essay on each of the questions asked in form-and-history section, and email these to him, and he'd comment and say, make sure you read more on these details.

It depends on how independently you can work, and whether you have a great need for a lot of reassurance and encouragement and recognition from someone else.

[yamaha]

To be honest, I think I have to agree with your teacher - it would be almost impossible to mark higher grades of theory (i.e. anything about grade 5) during a piano lesson - when I used to teach, I'd mark the theory homework for students doing the lower theory grades during their piano lesson, but while they were playing - so I was listening to them play, and marking at the same time. But for higher grades, how can I hear the harmonies and melodies they have written, while listening to their playing? It is absolutely essential to have a separate lesson and/or a separate teacher. However, I don't think it's fair to add up all the time spent marking, and then charge the student for it retrospectively - a student needs to know how much he or she has to pay beforehand (it's like saying, agree to buy these goods, and I'll tell you how much you owe me after you've bought it).

The theory-by-post thing can work - once I got past grade 6 AMEB (similar system of grades to ABRSM) theory, my teacher and I had hardly any contact - he said at that point, I should be able to learn independently. I paid him a fee each term, and handed in work each week. But he didn't set me any work either - I chose what work to do - so it was my responsibility to make sure I learnt all the stuff in the syllabus. So he just said, make sure you can write these harmonies, and I worked through the textbook and handed in my exercises each week. With form and history, he'd give me heaps of past papers, and I'd write a short essay on each of the questions asked in form-and-history section, and email these to him, and he'd comment and say, make sure you read more on these details.

It depends on how independently you can work, and whether you have a great need for a lot of reassurance and encouragement and recognition from someone else.

 I agree, a separate lesson would be acceptable but she wont do that because she wont mark in front of me    If I have to have theory done separately from my piano lesson I think it would be better to have another teacher because as it is I dont get any feedback for a week and then when I do it takes up half of my piano lesson as well.  Like whynot said, it is odd to me that she would rather I came less often than do theory with me in the lesson and I do suspect that she doesnt feel confident doing it.

I have a lesson tomorrow so if she asks what I have decided to do I may suggest a toatally separate lesson (with her) and see what she says 

Thanks again all, its great to share thoughts with the like minded 

[vera]

 I teach a lot of advanced theory, and mark the papers almost always during the lesson. The small questions can be marked very quickly, the harmony and other creative work can be played through and discussed, and various options given, where there are mistakes. It is most useful, to do such work together. With essay type questions you can show students how to approach that kind of material, what to look for  in comparing exam papers etc.  There is no wasted time, I do not mark the theory without the student being involved in it at the same time. I have become very quick however in marking harmony and how to make melodies most efficiently. When the students go through the workbooks, you have to mark at the lesson anyway, because they have to take the book home again. The only time I mark papers outside of lesson time is when students dump a pile of papers on me at the last minute, one or two weeks before an exam. If I mark those, I feel it is necessary to add comment to it, that what I would otherwise have done aurally at the lesson, and I will charge them, because that is extra work only caused by the students leaving it too late. But I am a fast marker, and it is never much. If too much time would be taken up at the lesson, because the student has problems, then I just have to give them a longer lesson. I find however, that if the work is spread over the year, it usually works fine and can be fitted in the lesson. There are also sometimes weeks, that the student has not practised much, all the more time then
 for explaining theory or aural.
If my students learn another instrument as well, I almost invariably end up having to teach them the extra requirements ( theory and aural) for those exams, because there are plenty of teachers, who will not do it. It is probably easier for pianists to teach it. To send your students home with a tape of the aural work is hopelessly inadequate, unless the student has a quick feel for it.

[yamaha]

Hi Vera    You sound like a super teacher, just what I need.  This has turned out to be a very interesting topic and has given me plenty to think about.  I see my teacher tonight and hope to resolve something with her, she isnt much into computers or I could point her in the direction of this forum 

Thanks everyone 

[hgiles]

At some point most people will find they are either better pianists or better theorists.   Your teacher may be at a level where the theory challenges her.   However, she may continue to be your best option where performace is concerned.

I would seek out another theory teacher.   Maybe take a theory class at the local college or something.   For someone that teaches theory as a profession this stuff should come much easier, quicker.   

Trust me, I have had theory teachers that could read through music and 'mark' it as quickly as you're reading this sentence.  No fuss, no muss, no brain seizing up.

[yamaha]

At some point most people will find they are either better pianists or better theorists.   Your teacher may be at a level where the theory challenges her.   However, she may continue to be your best option where performace is concerned.

I would seek out another theory teacher.   Maybe take a theory class at the local college or something.   For someone that teaches theory as a profession this stuff should come much easier, quicker.   

Trust me, I have had theory teachers that could read through music and 'mark' it as quickly as you're reading this sentence.  No fuss, no muss, no brain seizing up.

   Thanks for that.  That's what I thought really, its just finding someone, so many teachers dont teach past grade 5.  My piano teacher didnt mention our conversation when I went for my lesson on Mon, I suspect that maybe she is hoping that I will find someone else.  Trouble is, I do like her a lot and dont want to offend her