Interesting Observations (shhh, it's a thread about everything!)

[m1469]

I was thinking about a bike crash I was in a number of years ago...  I was riding quite fast on pavement and went over a bump, lifting the front end of my bike to ease the shock of the bump and came down on only my front fork (my front wheel had come off and was no longer a part of the landing scenario).  Here is the funny thing... I didn't realize my front tire was rolling away.

Everything went into slow motion and I felt like I was gently gliding downward.... time was moving so slowly.... maybe it even stopped...I felt no danger.  Next thing I knew I was laying on the ground.

Here is what I am wondering... do you think it is possible to control those moments of slow motion ?  Could one literally suspend themselves wihtin those moments enough to actually change the outcome of the landing ?  Maybe even reorganize the body and land on the feet ?  Maybe I could even "re-enter" those moments in my consciousness now, and change the outcome of that landing ?  Why not ?  Maybe this is the Matrix.   How does one shine light on that place ?

Bernhard's comments on motional consciousness (something like that) come to mind.  I ought to go read that again.

It's just one of those observations that make me think.  Okay, I will go practice now.


m1469 

[bernhard]

Do you mean this?


https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3396.msg30084.html#msg30084
(Laziness, the 3 centres and how to use visualisation to deal with it – consciousness and its location – applications to martial arts and piano playing – locating the consciousness at the movement centre).

 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Torp]

Bernhard,

Is there a way to more effectively practice visualizing the process?  Is there a point of diminishing returns regarding the amount of detail in the visualization?  How do you combat an internal belief system that tells you that you will fail?

Your continued thoughts on this would be very much appreciated.

Jef

[m1469]

Do you mean this?


https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3396.msg30084.html#msg30084
(Laziness, the 3 centres and how to use visualisation to deal with it – consciousness and its location – applications to martial arts and piano playing – locating the consciousness at the movement centre).

 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

YES, thanks 

Bernhard,

Is there a way to more effectively practice visualizing the process? Is there a point of diminishing returns regarding the amount of detail in the visualization? How do you combat an internal belief system that tells you that you will fail?

Your continued thoughts on this would be very much appreciated.

Jef

YES, please 


M yla

[bernhard]

Bernhard,

Is there a way to more effectively practice visualizing the process?  Is there a point of diminishing returns regarding the amount of detail in the visualization? 

Er… I am not quite sure what you are asking.

Visualising is part of our mental capacity. You don’t really need to practise it. You do it all the time (and most of the time unconsciously, that is you are visualising but you are not aware that you are doing it). So it is more a matter of bringing the visualisation into consciousness and directing it, than of “practising it”. The way to bring any unconscious stuff into consciousness is through “attention”. Whatever you direct your attention to will be brought into consciousness.

For instance, if I direct your attention to the pressure your feet are exerting on the floor this very moment, you will immediately feel it, while before the feeling – although there – was completely unconscious.

Of course, consciousness is pretty limited (at any point in time you can only keep 7±2 chunks of information in consciousnesss, so if you need to bring a new item into it, some of the items already there will have to drop back to the unconscious), but that is OK. Everything is done by the unconscious. The point of having a consciousness is simply to be able to program your unconscious.

?  How do you combat an internal belief system that tells you that you will fail?

You don’t. The biggest mistake of all is to fight evil. To do so is to give it energy. Just ignore it and make resolute progress on the path of good. This means that you never fight bad habits. Quite simply you replace them with good habits. Soon the bad habits die of malnourishment.

If you think that your internal belief system is telling you things that are not in your best interest, just let it talk, and move on with your life.

Does that help?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[rob47]

The biggest mistake of all is to fight evil. To do so is to give it energy. Just ignore it and make resolute progress on the path of good. This means that you never fight bad habits. Quite simply you replace them with good habits. Soon the bad habits die of malnourishment.

So Bernhard are you going to help me quit smoking?  This phrase I quoted seems kind of inspiring but realistically, nicotine is hard to replace.  I tried chewing gum whenever I felt the evil urge but it doesn't work. Any suggestons.  Also one big problem is I love smoking and whenever  I say I want to quit, I'm sure I really don'twant to inside.

[Torp]

Er… I am not quite sure what you are asking.

For not being sure you're certainly getting to the heart of what I was wondering awfully quick!

Visualising is part of our mental capacity. You don’t really need to practise it. You do it all the time (and most of the time unconsciously, that is you are visualising but you are not aware that you are doing it). So it is more a matter of bringing the visualisation into consciousness and directing it, than of “practising it”. The way to bring any unconscious stuff into consciousness is through “attention”. Whatever you direct your attention to will be brought into consciousness.

OK, in the other thread you had given an example about washing the dishes.  Instead of visualizing the dishes as being washed you advocated visualizing the entire process of getting off the couch, washing the dishes, putting them away, etc.  My questions about diminishing returns had to do with how much detail you would put into the visualization of washing the dishes.  In other words, (going for the ridiculous just to clarify) if you had 100 dishes to wash would it more effective to visualize washing each and every dish? Or, to simply have a 'general' visualization of standing at the sink washing dishes?

The reason for my questions really has to do with things I have heard in the past about making visualations specific.  The more specific you make them, the more likely you'll 'get what you want' so to speak.  I'm just wondering where the line gets drawn in terms of detail.

Of course, consciousness is pretty limited (at any point in time you can only keep 7±2 chunks of information in consciousnesss, so if you need to bring a new item into it, some of the items already there will have to drop back to the unconscious), but that is OK. Everything is done by the unconscious. The point of having a consciousness is simply to be able to program your unconscious.

So, the unconscious seems to be doing a lot of 'behind-the-scenes' directing.  Much of this directing seems to be getting me things I don't 'consciously' want.  If the key is to pay 'attention' to the conscious side in order to reprogram the unconscious side, is there any way to get better at paying attention?  I assume that pointing one's attention at something takes discipline and concentration, or, at a minimum, some different technique than what I am currently employing.  My questions revolves around how to develop more thoroughly the ability to pay attention to what I want to accomplish.

It seems conceptually simple, I think.  In order to get what you consciously want you must stay in the conscious mind and not give credence to what the unconscious mind says against it.  Is that a fair assessment?

If you think that your internal belief system is telling you things that are not in your best interest, just let it talk, and move on with your life.

Perhaps this is the crux of my conundrum.  How does one do this?

Does that help?

Immensely.  Thank you.

Jef

[bernhard]

So Bernhard are you going to help me quit smoking?  This phrase I quoted seems kind of inspiring but realistically, nicotine is hard to replace.  I tried chewing gum whenever I felt the evil urge but it doesn't work. Any suggestons.  Also one big problem is I love smoking and whenever  I say I want to quit, I'm sure I really don'twant to inside.

I don't really care if you smoke or not (unless you are near me, in which case, I assure you you will not smoke. Or if you do you will not exhale ).

However, if you want to quit, I can point you in the direction of the effective technology.

However, before you take any hasty decisions, consider this:

According to a certain belief we are about to be invaded by aliens who look like big reptiles and eat human flesh. However, they hate human flesh that has been tainted with tobacco. Most governments are in a secret agreement with the reptilians to provide them with meat, and this is the main reason you have all these campaings to ban smoking. It is all in the interest of the alines, you see? So smoking may well protect you in such a case.

So, do you want to quit?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

OK, in the other thread you had given an example about washing the dishes.  Instead of visualizing the dishes as being washed you advocated visualizing the entire process of getting off the couch, washing the dishes, putting them away, etc.  My questions about diminishing returns had to do with how much detail you would put into the visualization of washing the dishes.  In other words, (going for the ridiculous just to clarify) if you had 100 dishes to wash would it more effective to visualize washing each and every dish? Or, to simply have a 'general' visualization of standing at the sink washing dishes?

First, what is your goal? Your goal is to wash the dishes. So visualise in as much (or as little) detail you need to get to the sink.. How much detail is that? I have no idea. Only you can answer this by trying the procedure. Maybe for you, just imagining (= making an image) yourself turning the tap will be enough to generate an unstopable compulsion to go and do the dishes. Maybe you will need more detail. This is pretty much like piano practice. You want to do the minimum.

A common trap is to get so involved into the visualisation business that one forgets why one is doing it in the first place.

Another common trap is to discuss these things intellectually. All the answers come to you as soon as you actually follow the instructions. Really the only questions worthy asking are the ones that deal with the procedure itself, so that you are doing the correct thing.

Now the correct thing in this case is just the visualisation. By that I mean that you are not going to feel bad about the dishes. You are not going to tell yourself to wash the dishes. Kinaesthetic and auditory representations do not work. You must create a visual representation.

If you actually do that, then all sorts of interesting questions may pop out, but they will be a result of your experience, rather than the result of your intellectual cogitations about it. So. Do it! Now! Come back after the dishes are clean.

The reason for my questions really has to do with things I have heard in the past about making visualations specific.  The more specific you make them, the more likely you'll 'get what you want' so to speak.  I'm just wondering where the line gets drawn in terms of detail.

The line gets drawn by your achieving of your goal.

So, the unconscious seems to be doing a lot of 'behind-the-scenes' directing.  Much of this directing seems to be getting me things I don't 'consciously' want.

You must be careful here, because you are treading in dangerous ground. The unconscious is vast and very very wise. Sometimes it may seem like your unconscious is doing things that go against your conscious decisions, but the conscious is really not that clever. It may well be that what your unconscious is putting your through may be in your best interests after all. Or may be the unconscious does not have a clue and is just doing some random act. At this point there is a question you must ask that may take us very deep into a very interesting territory. I wonder if you will ask it…

If the key is to pay 'attention' to the conscious side in order to reprogram the unconscious side, is there any way to get better at paying attention?  I assume that pointing one's attention at something takes discipline and concentration, or, at a minimum, some different technique than what I am currently employing.  My questions revolves around how to develop more thoroughly the ability to pay attention to what I want to accomplish.

I have discussed attention and concentration (they are very different things) here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5179.msg49593.html#msg49593
(concentration, attention and consciousness)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3202.msg28196.html#msg28196
(Bad habits – the three centres are mentioned here – some martial arts analogies – Fanny Bloomfield list of good practising habits – Maurice Hinson list – The score as a map – models and modelling processes – Interpretation as the reverse of modelling – comparison with actors)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2256.msg19267.html#msg19267
(nervousness – the solution – mention of 7 items in consciousness)

Have a look. If you are still dissatisfied, we can take it from there.

It seems conceptually simple, I think.  In order to get what you consciously want you must stay in the conscious mind and not give credence to what the unconscious mind says against it.  Is that a fair assessment?

No, not at all. The conscious mind gives itself great importance, but it is not that important at all. It is not possible for me to answer properly this question at this stage.

This is Pandora’s box though. Should we really open it? (Hey! we just moved from fables/parables to myths!)


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Torp]

How can you tell when your unconscious mind is telling you the truth?


Pending any further discussion on this, I am off to wash the dishes.  Actually, I've been visualizing the beer I'm going to have at the local pub since this afternoon, so that is at least one visualization that is going to come true shortly. 

Thanks again,

Jef

[m1469]

How can you tell when your unconscious mind is telling you the truth?


Thanks again,

Jef

Yeah, and who are "YOU" ? he he.... I mean, who is the one (within all of us) that decides what is the truth ?  Is that a different you ?  A differenct consciousness or unconsciousness ?  Are "you" simply faculties of mind ? he he...


AND... it seems evident to me that if there is a part of you capable of recognizing what is the truth, then there is a part of you whom already knows it.  For example, a child recognizes (he he.. "re" - "cognizes"  ) his/her mother because s/he knows mother.


AND... in the example of a person living in the underground bunker being able to explore the entire place with a systematic approach... s/he may not know s/he has indeed explored the entire place because s/he can only know a bit at a time.  S/he does not know the full picture and then decide where to explore next (essentially, a person does not know they have explored in entirety unless they have already explored in entirety and are aware of it).  Does it really matter if you know you have explored the entire place or not ?  he he ... 


*The brakes don't seem to be working properly... gaining speed* 

*please help me stop* 


m1469


I don't know who the hayflower is asking all those bloody questions...

[m1469]

Knock it off,  m1469!! Quit asking all those questions     

[m1469]

Knock it off,  m1469!! Quit asking all those questions     

Ha ha haaaaa, I will NOT be silenced !  On guard!


m1469 

[m1469]

Here is something interesting to me.  A couple weeks back on a bike ride of mine, I rode past a beautiful rock wall.  It was a dry-stack wall, meaning that there was not anything but rocks set together to hold it together.  I happen to know that dry-stack walls are more durable than are morter rock walls.  That time I rode past it, this piece of information struck me as significant and I have been pondering it ever since.

The natural or dry-stack wall essentially stands in its own power against the elements better than does one held together by something somewhat foreign (though I know the compounds may be similar).  I thought "what kind of lesson about life is this showing me ?"

I decided that for me it means the following :  As we stand in our knowing, we will weather the storm better than should we seek to be held together by something foreign to our most knowing self, because that which is foreign eventually and inevitabley simply erodes away.  

Then, in the case of a rock wall, the rocks have to resettle and they may not fit tightly with the other rocks and the wall may even crumble.


I just gotta wonder... Is there still room for beer ?  he he...



I am just a little curious about something... what do you suppose would happen if the world (every individual) focused its attention on a single thing at the exact same time ?  (even if only for a moment)

[pianonut]

what about when the ball drops at midnight on new years?  i suppose the exact new year might be a few days off in china - but most people are drinking beer then, too.  is this the answer you were looking for? 

[bernhard]

I just gotta wonder... Is there still room for beer ?  he he...

This reminds me of another tale:

The Caliph Harun Al Rashid was equally known by his generosity and love for truth.

On the occasion of his birthday he was in the custom of giving a royal banquet to the poorest of the poorest beggars in Baghdad.

And so it was that year.

The poorest of the poorest having been found, he was dully invited to the palace and presented with a thousand different delicacies, which he proceeded to eat as one who has not eaten for many days (which probably was the case). His belly visibly stretched and the Caliph, watching the proceedings from a balcony that afforded him ample view of the salon downstairs, started to fear it might actually burst. Finally the beggar declared himself totally full.

The Caliph summoned the beggar to the balcony where they could be seen by the host of guests, and addressed the crowd downstairs as well as the beggar to his side:

-   Are you happy with your meal, my poor fellow?

-   Yes, very happy, my Caliph!

-   Are you completely full and satisfied?

-   Completely my Caliph! In fact I dare say that I would be unable to eat as much as a grain of rice, or a drop of water!

-   So, no coffee for you then?

-   I am afraid it would be physically impossible, my Caliph!

-   Oh, this is a real shame, since I have here some very special beer, imported especially for the occasion…

-   Maybe, on second thought I could have a taste – said the beggar with undisguised eagerness.

The Caliph was slightly amused, clapped hands and ordered a barrel of beer to be brought to the balcony. Then he watched in amazement as the beggar started by taking a little sip of the golden nectar and ended up by drinking the whole barrel.

The Caliph was furious (one suspects that the fact that it was the only barrel may have had something to do with it).

-   You, son of an infidel dog! - Foamed the Caliph – You know perfectly well that my generosity is only matched by my love of the truth. And yet, before all below you, you dared to tell a lie on the very day of my birthday. You have stated to all that you could not possibly have any further food or drink  - in your own words, not a grain of rice, not a drop of water. And yet, you proceeded to drink a full barrel of beer! Say your last words, wretched creature, because tomorrow your head will be separated from your body!

The beggar, terrified, pleaded with the Caliph:

-   Magnificent ruler, yes, your infinite generosity and your repulsion to untruth are well known, but most of all you are famed throughout the land by your love of justice, so hear me out and allow me a little demonstration.

-   Go on then, said the impatient Caliph.

-   First I would like you to summon to the room below us everyone presently at the palace: guests, servants, guards, every single human being.

The Caliph gave the order, and over the next half hour people flocked into the salon below. When the last one arrived, the room was packed so tightly that it was unlikely that a single camel flea should fit in the room. So the beggar asked the Caliph:

-   Oh, sage of sages, do you reckon that anyone else could fit in that room?

-   Not even by a miracle of Allah! That room is truly and completely full.

-   So watch this.

The beggar then clapped his hands loudly and when all eyes where on the balcony he announced:

-   Dear fellows, please make some space, since our beloved Caliph is going down to join you.

As the crowd below heard that, they started pushing and shoving and generally  squeezing to make space for the Caliph – a portly man to say the least – as he went down the stairs. In fact such was the respect and love that he commanded that the people in the salon were able to clear a sizeable circle for the Caliph – a circle where another one hundred guests would easily have fitted in.

The Caliph was amazed. The beggar then concluded:

-   You see, there was no falsity in my words, or in yours. My belly was indeed full – as was the salon. Yet, just like everyone squeezed to make room for the sovereign of the land, so all the food in my belly squeezed to make room for the Queen of beverages.

The Caliph was so impressed by the beggars wisdom that he not only pardoned him as made him his Grand Vizier.

(This is the nice ending . In the alternative ending the Caliph although impressed and fully convinced by his argument put him to death anyway because the Koran forbids drinking alcohol ).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[pianonut]

that was good, bernhard!  you must have read 1001 arabian nights.  i liked the part about 'not even a single camel flea . . . .'  and then the caliph had so much room 100 people could fit.  that is typical of the arabian tales - so far fetched yet keeps you reading for the twists and turns.

 

[Torp]

All Praise to Allah, there is still room for beer.

[m1469]

Why am I posting about this ?  Because these things are bothering me.  Why are they bothering me ?  I don't know for sure... I guess I feel like I need to be more of an alert citizen or something.

Just got back from a walk with doggy and another strange people encounter happened.  I will tell about the others shortly.  This time, I was with doggy and suddenly this little girl comes running across the street alone, coming over to see me and doggy.  She didn't look both ways and a passing truck needed to slow down and stop for her.  I don't know what I was thinking... she obviously didn't know how to cross the street and look both ways, but I thought maybe she was in her yard playing... or going back across the street to her house... I didn't understand.

Anyway, she comes right up to doggy and I but for some reason doggy is feeling nervous about her and she gets just as nervous as doggy and there we are staring at each other not saying a word.  Everytime doggy flinches, so does she.  Well, she is standing half way in the street and all my mother-alarms are sounding but all I can think to do is tell her to wait and that she needs to look both ways before she crosses the street.  Why is it that all I could think to do was teach her something ?

She runs back across the street to where she came from, having dodged another car.  I walk on only to have her start running after me (in silence) once again.  I thought that maybe she was deaf... but she wasn't.  I don't know why but I felt like I was being chased by a wild animal.  Soon mom comes out the door yelling at her daughter asking her what she is doing.  I guess she wandered out of the house and didn't belong out there at all.  DUH !  I should have taken her back myself !!!

Okay... here it goes.

Time #1 -- When I was in highschool I am at a lake with a boyfriend and two little kids are playing at the water's edge while we are running around being in our own world, flirting with each other.  Soon the kids fall silent and I remember hearing yelling coming from up above... but we were so into our own thing I thought nothing of it.  It didn't even register until after.  Soon following a man comes flying down to the water's edge where I see him running into the water to save his two drowning kids.  How in the world could I have been so oblivious ??

Time #2 -- I guess I am getting better at this point, but I am in highschool and I am at a friend's house who lived right by a church building.  It's evening time, getting dark.  For some reason I decide that I would like to go outside and go into the church parking lot where I see a baby (maybe 14 months ?) wearing diapers, running around by himself.  At first I just notice him ... until I realize the situation is not right and finally I run after him and scoop him up into my arms.  We call the police and come to find out, this child's parents had already contacted the cops and were already looking for him.  He had wandered out of the house and was several blocks away by this time.  How in the world does this happen   They came and got him.

Time #3 -- I am driving down an unlit street on a dark and rainy night when I notice a man sitting in a wheel chair actually in the street.  I thought twice about stopping, but my conscience gets the best of me and so I stop, get out, approach the man and ask if he needs help.  As it turns out, it was all legitimate... his battery on his wheel chair ran out and he was genuinely stuck ... there in the dark, in the street, in the rain.  I wheeled him back a few blocks to his house.

Time #4 -- I am driving down the street in broad daylight and see a matured woman wondering around in the middle of a four-way intersection.  I drive by and then realize that this isn't right so I make a U turn and park and run out into the street to help her.  She was really confused, unfortunately.  She was looking for a coin that she thought she had seen there.  Well, she also almost got hit by traffic as she wasn't able to walk or even stand straight.  She thought I was getting her into trouble... hee hee.  I walked her back to her bicycle on the other side of the road.  Maybe I should have done something else ?  More ?

Okay.  There are some more stories, but those are the only ones I want to tell right now.  But what the... ?  Are some people just a magnet for these types of things ?  I feel nervous about what else is coming.  Did you know that once you start CPR on somebody, it is illegal to stop ?

When I was little, I used to wear a towel over my hair and tell the neighbor girls that I was super-girl.  Then I would go through the neighborhood looking for people and animals to help, mysteries to uncover... maybe it's haunting me. 



m1469

[thalbergmad]

Are some people just a magnet for these types of things ? 
m1469

Yes.

[pianistimo]

dear mayla,

i feel similarly helpless.  my son used to beg me to stop giving lifts to homeless people.  he said they made the car stink.  maybe he was right - but i didn't care.  they need to know the places about town that can help them.  some get help - some don't.

as far as children running around - from my own perspective it is either teenage parents or middle- aged parents such as myself that are so wreckless.  although, remembering my own childhood - we used to walk completely home by ourselves, play the rest of the day (who knows where), and come back at dark.  i don't even know if they'd have called the police at the first sign of disappearance.

i did run away from home in fourth grade - but that was short lived as i never made the appearance after school at home.  being that my mom stayed home all the time - i had the advantage of homemade lunches, drives to piano lessons, pets, gardening, etc.  i don't feel disadvantaged or anything - it's just that back in those days - we played at the neighbors or they came to our house and whenever we were hurt we had to walk 3/4 of a mile with leg bleeding - and suck in the tears.  we didn't have any traffic around, though.

my mother probably was very tired just from the preschool years.  if those don't do you in - the middle school will - if those don't the teenage years will.  i would come home - and there she'd be on the couch.  i thought, at the time, mom's never needed to rest.  i'd come back and dinner was ready, though - which is more than i can say for myself on some days.  she also had to deal with health problems (hypoglycemia).  i should have come home and gotten her a drink of water or some food and been more concerned about her health.  my kids are way more considerate than i remember being.  i think i was oblivious.

[pianistimo]

i shouldn't laugh because this is serious...but i watch all the new mothers in the neighborhood.  the first two years they are reminding their children not to cross the street and run after a ball - or not to get their clothes dirty.  for me, by the time my son was five - i was pushing him into the street and hoping he'd get run over.  (not reallY).  he was so busy all the time.  sometimes it is very difficult when you have an overactive child.  i'd go shoppping and he'd jump out from between the clothes racks when i was panicking about where he was and about to have the front desk call his name through the intercom.  he'd wait until the last possible moment - and took a lot of my patience.  the only comparable person to my son was this grown child on mad tv that is called 'clarence' or something like that.  he constantly tries to fall in a well. 

[m1469]

How are we going to live with ourselves for eternity ? -- a question too faceted and complex-seeming for the human mind to even BEGIN to come to terms with.

Honestly asking that question to the human mind is like asking a mouse to explain in every tongue and dialect known to man, the reason why people can walk upright and why huge metal ships are capable of *floating* in the sea.

[opus10no2]

Answer - the way we always have.

Really, if the human race evolves more, surely greater mutual understanding should come about, increased average intelligence in general aswell as emotional intelligence.

It's sad how many lives have been lost over misunderstanding...

Of course I also am aware of the theory that mankind will destroy itself, but I suppose I'm a more hopeful than fearful person deep down 

[pianowolfi]

How are we going to live with ourselves for eternity ? -- a question too faceted and complex-seeming for the human mind to even BEGIN to come to terms with.

Honestly asking that question to the human mind is like asking a mouse to explain in every tongue and dialect known to man, the reason why people can walk upright and why huge metal ships are capable of *floating* in the sea.

complex-seeming. Yes. Okay. Here we are. You just pose thee question of my life here. Thee question I could write books full of letters and books full of notes on. The question that caused me, as you know, to improvise my "Styx" which is now the center of my current program. I have no answer. I don't dare to claim that I have. I just can say that I have this question since the very beginning of my conscious life. And that is relatively early in my case.

 I think we don't live only with ourselves. We live together with others and with other beings who have a different level and kind of consciousness. For me eternity CAN begin at the moment when I am able to live my innermost being in complete and free exchange and unity with another being, like another human or divine being, like an angel or whatever, after all there are but different and various more or less conscious beings. That's what the world is. A sum of "consciousnesses".

 We are never alone. We may think so and we may think so for a very long time, but we need to get over this, I think badly. In our time especially. Eternity begins with a friendly word or a glance into someone's eye. Eternity may be: "Get up, take your mat and go home" (Mathew 9.5). Eternity may be a good piece of music that makes us forget about time and space. Eternity may be every true inspiration of art or knowledge that enters our mind. Eternity may be many more things. What is the point of all that? What is the sense of all that? Can a mouse ever be a human? Can't a human enlarge his mind? I mean it would be hell to me to live for eternity with the current state of my mind, however happy or not happy I may be today or tomorrow. I mean: WAS that all? IS that all? No. It is not all. That would be senseless to me. MY current state of mind? for eternity? NO THANKS For me this is not all. To be mature enough to cope with eternity it needs much more than what I am today. SO much more that I think, as I stated somewhen before, that we need several lives and several different levels of consciousness and progress. Okay now I am *really* hungry. *goes back to his music monk cell and cooks*


Edit the day after: Sometimes when I consider these questions I feel like I need a break. A break from existence. And I even think that there is a way...It's all in the mind. The existence, the non-existence, the break from existence. "Midnight of existence" ....

[Bob]

How are we going to live with ourselves for eternity ?

I lean toward the idea that the mind is erased.  You go on, but don't get dragged down with baggage.  However, some deep type of impression remains -- like a soul impression thing. 

If that makes sense.

[m1469]

A recent observation :

Even interesting and seemingly wonderful people can be quite unreasonable and difficult.  I guess we just forgive them.

[m1469]

Nearly everything is a mere distraction from that which really matters. 

I suppose I wonder at the time if there is any distraction that is truly worth it ?  I think there is not.

[Bob]

I think it's good just to try things and put good effort into them.  Even if they really are dead ends, then at least you know and you can move on.  Even if they area, chances are you've still gotten something useful out of the distraction and that's useful to your main goal anyway.  You take a break from the main goal and come back with some new tools.

[general disarray]

Nearly everything is a mere distraction from that which really matters. 

I suppose I wonder at the time if there is any distraction that is truly worth it ?  I think there is not.

Fine wisdom here, Ms. m1469.  Anything that takes us from undiluted awareness of the present moment is "distraction."  And if the present moment is that space where the past and future do not inhabit, then perhaps we get a glimpse of that which is called "eternity."

Isn't eternity really the cessation of time -- just one seamless hunk of Now?  No past.  No future.  All Now.

[m1469]

Fine wisdom here, Ms. m1469.  Anything that takes us from undiluted awareness of the present moment is "distraction."  And if the present moment is that space where the past and future do not inhabit, then perhaps we get a glimpse of that which is called "eternity."

Isn't eternity really the cessation of time -- just one seamless hunk of Now?  No past.  No future.  All Now.

*Tips cowgirl hat in general disarray's direction*


Next :

The skill of learning to spot and handle/charm "serpents" is only useful so long as there are serpents to be spotted and handled.

However, just knowing the above fact is a far more practical skill.

[m19834]

Is there truly an eternal spring,
or is this notion merely the musing
of a dreamer, in an eternal dream ?

[cmg]

Is there truly an eternal spring,
or is this notion merely the musing
of a dreamer, in an eternal dream ?

If the universe containeth a deactivated "m1469"
Yet still can harbor, serendipitously, one known as "Karli,"
Then, surely, eternal spring is embraced therein.

Dream on, fair lady, and fret no more!
The promise of Forever knocks kindly at thy door.

[m19834]

If the universe containeth a deactivated "M."
Yet still can harbor, serendipitously, one known as "Karli,"
Then, surely, eternal spring is embraced therein.

Dream on, fair lady, and fret no more!
The promise of Forever knocks kindly at thy door.

 

[db05]

I am addicted to this forum. And I may be turning insomniac since it is making me stay up until the wee hours. Oh no. "When you have insomnia, everything is a copy of a copy." In some cases, I'd feel better if I stayed up all night (although still a bit cranky). No sleep for like, 20 hours. I don't know why.

I had been asking my history teach a lot of stuff lately, and it has to do with achieving something. Anything for that matter. I believe I've asked this in another thread. Do you believe that in order to gain something, you have to give something of equal value? Like in science, law of conservation. In the spiritual world, does this mean you have to sacrifice? Then, in a way, we don't gain anything at all, do we?

What is im/possible? What are the limits to what we can do? We live by stretching our limits, what if we actually reach THE limit? Will we die? Or just keep growing, like in Akira and blow up?

I don't know how to explain this. But history has a way of dictating the present, and sometimes I feel we have no control of our lives at all.

[concerto_love]

I cannot stop open this forum!!!! heeelp!! I want to practice!!!!

[m19834]

In the spiritual world, does this mean you have to sacrifice? Then, in a way, we don't gain anything at all, do we?

Well, that is assuming that what is sacrificed is of equal value to what is "gained" and while, to some extent a person could say that is true, in another respect it is not.  What I personally feel I am always being asked to sacrifice is false and/or limited or limiting conceptions of the world, of who I am and of life.  Perhaps I falsely cling to those and value those and so in some sense, in the relative realm, I am sacrificing something of an equal value, but in the progress of my life and of my being (working out one's own salvation), I am not actually sacrificing anything of true value at all (otherwise it could not be sacrificed).  Letting go of/sacrificing false standards and false values and yielding to a greater concept of life and a deeper value of what life is is not actually a sacrifice.  It may feel like that or look like that, but as the transition occurs, eventually whatever mental clothing was shed will wind up serving us well.  

It is similar to shedding the idea that the earth is flat for the concept that the earth is a sphere.  In ignorance, an individual may greatly value the concept of the earth being flat, and perhaps in one form of perspective the earth being flat is a reality.  However, once the scope is moved outward far enough, it becomes clear that the earth is in fact round and that valuing the earth as flat is not truly a sacrifice of any sort other than giving up an ignorant belief.  But, is the trade truly equal ?  No, because one is more true than another, at least as perspective grows.

[db05]

It is similar to shedding the idea that the earth is flat for the concept that the earth is a sphere.  In ignorance, an individual may greatly value the concept of the earth being flat, and perhaps in one form of perspective the earth being flat is a reality.  However, once the scope is moved outward far enough, it becomes clear that the earth is in fact round and that valuing the earth as flat is not truly a sacrifice of any sort other than giving up an ignorant belief.  But, is the trade truly equal ?  No, because one is more true than another, at least as perspective grows.

True. Again, I am led to the "limits" problem, what if you've shed every wrong you could, and grown as much as you could, what would happen?

And another thing popped into my my mind. Suppose you have knowledge that few people have? What if everyone else swore that the earth was flat and you were the only one who knew it isn't? You would have to choose which is more important: the current society, and your place in it, or this truth? Would you stake your life on one truth, even though it might not be necessary (someone will discover something and prove you right in the future)?

I figured, the only things stopping us are ourselves, and other people. You can't truly say you don't need other people. And you can't avoid them anyway. Worse, you can't avoid the distortion of society.

[m19834]

True. Again, I am led to the "limits" problem, what if you've shed every wrong you could, and grown as much as you could, what would happen?

Well, who knows ?  I think probably we would basically ascend into another dimension of life, but who knows what that would entail for sure ?  I am sure it would still entail some form of individual activity/growth, but I don't know.  One thing I find interesting about that kind of question though is that people don't know what it would be like, and I think that makes some people afraid to grow.  Or else, people say something like "life would be too boring that way" -- something like "world peace" for example.  People love to say that would be a boring way to live, but how in the freaky french fries would anybody be remotely *close* to knowing what that kind of life would be like ?  People can only peer through some darkened lense from "here" to "there" not really knowing what a "better" or a "different" life would truly be like.  In any respect, if anybody ever reached the point of declaring they had nothing more to learn in this seemingly earthly experience, they better be able to dominate the seeming laws that govern the experience here, and I am not just talking about having their way with other people.  I mean, they would need to be capable of defying gravity, walking on water, reversing time and restructuring orders of events, these sorts of things, without the aid of machinery (though creating "machinery" that goes those directions may involve some important knowledge-growth about "who we are").

And another thing popped into my my mind. Suppose you have knowledge that few people have? What if everyone else swore that the earth was flat and you were the only one who knew it isn't? You would have to choose which is more important: the current society, and your place in it, or this truth? Would you stake your life on one truth, even though it might not be necessary (someone will discover something and prove you right in the future)?

Well, I think that a lot of people think this way actually.  Hitler, for example, believed he had knowledge that few people had, and he went on to "lead" those whom were willing to follow into whatever cavernous arenas his own delusions took him/them.  People were gathered into "camps" and treated despicably because, in his mind, he felt that he could do this and that it was somehow the right thing to do.  Most people, whether they be seemingly evil or good, interestingly, actually almost all act in the name of that which they believe is right and good.  They are tricked into thinking they are doing the right thing. 

I figured, the only things stopping us are ourselves, and other people. You can't truly say you don't need other people. And you can't avoid them anyway. Worse, you can't avoid the distortion of society.

Yes, some people, like Charles Manson, decided that others were getting into his way, so he eliminated the people.  Charles Manson and Hitler are perhaps extreme examples.  More subtle would be the growing attitude among cultures that all that really matters in life is one's self and what one wants, with no concern for what that means to others and to the state of the world.  People believe they live in some kind of vacuum, some kind of self-created, self-governed universe, and then they go about existing within it with all of its self-instated limitations and so-called freedoms.  People believe that it is a matter of one's own power that allows them to not be concerned with what others would think and do, or to even step right on and squash another individual if that individual gets into one's way.  But, that kind of thinking is not what it seems, it is not powerful, it does not show dominion over the circumstances, and it does not somehow secure the individual's place within the big picture, because the big picture includes other individuals and in fact, all of creation.  Perhaps there are, in fact, already laws within the universe which support our right to freely express individuality, and these laws trump anything that would say otherwise, removing the need to remove those things which seem to be in one's way, and revealing the need to grow in one's own consciousness in such a way that is harmonious with the government of the universe.

Now, let's just pretend I didn't say all of that  .

[db05]

Now, let's just pretend I didn't say all of that  .

Haha, your post seems on the sad side of things. Lighten up!

I actually like the idea of having no limits, it's not boring imo. What's sad is that there ARE limits, which I said, other people.

It doesn't matter if you had all the knowledge and goodness in the world if no one believes you. Hitler was a bad example. His "knowledge" was false. I could imagine the first people who said the world is not flat, or the earth revolved around the sun and were persecuted. Would it be better if they just shut their traps, and let time tell?

[m19834]

Haha, your post seems on the sad side of things. Lighten up!

Actually, I can hardly bet you have any idea on those matters, but it's an amusing-to-me attempt by you anyway .

I actually like the idea of having no limits, it's not boring imo. What's sad is that there ARE limits, which I said, other people.

It doesn't matter if you had all the knowledge and goodness in the world if no one believes you. Hitler was a bad example. His "knowledge" was false. I could imagine the first people who said the world is not flat, or the earth revolved around the sun and were persecuted. Would it be better if they just shut their traps, and let time tell?

As I said and as you quoted, let's just pretend like I didn't say any of that.  From what I observe, it seems you have already got quite the hang of it .  Now, with all due respect, please go start your own thread, dear  .

[db05]

Ma'am/ Sir Karli, you are one with interesting signatures. What do you mean, Nannu nannu?

Edit: Sorry about the above posts, am getting carried abay. Thoughts fly about, not going anywhere. Nothing clearly defined.

A copy of a copy of a copy...

[m19834]

At what point does "precious" cease in being precious ?

At what point do we wake for good ?

With what fabric do you clothe an infinite gift ?

Is it okay to break the glass ceiling ?

[G.W.K]

My observation is that this is a very unusual thread...lol

G.W.K

[m19834]

hee hee .... wow, I hadn't read much of this in a while, especially the first page.  I have to say that I would agree with you  (it makes me cringe a little  ).  That is one of the dangers of writing things down under an alias ... hee hee.  But, in my defense, I started this thread a few years ago ... and I was much younger then 

[Bob]

At what point does "precious" cease in being precious ?

About kindergarten/first grade for baby behavior.

About fifth or sixth grade for 1-3 grade behavior.  Same age for not being able to sing in tune.  There's something different between a kindergartener singing and singing offpitch and a junior high kid doing the same. 

[G.W.K]

But, in my defense, I started this thread a few years ago ... and I was much younger then 

So who bumped this thread again?

G.W.K

[m19834]

So who bumped this thread again?

G.W.K

Yes, yes, I know, I know.  But, I am thinking ... *probably* if somebody were to read this entire thread from beginning to end (shudders), they would observe a difference between my posts in some kind of relationship with the dates.  At least if they are some kind of astute reader or so.  From time to time I still need this thread.

[morningstar]

It is an interesting thread, like it's stupid but not. Does that make sense?

[m19834]

it's stupid but not. Does that make sense?

Yes, I suppose.

Well, here I am thinking about something strange and I just have to post it here.  As I said, from time to time I still need this thread.

Doesn't anybody else find it odd that we as individuals, or we as a human race, have within us all of the intelligence to create something like an airplane that flies, knowing the precise materials it needs, understanding (at least to some degree) the principles behind the act of flying, being able to craft it and use it and so on, yet we ourselves believe we cannot actually just fly without the airplane ?  I mean, it's very odd.  We actually "understand" everything about it, everything is within us, but for some reason we are not good enough to do it alone... that is odd.  And, the same goes for many, many other things.  For example, pianos.  We can understand the instrument and how to play it inside and out (okay, anyway that is my goal), yet, we still think of it as something that is not actually just part of us ... as though it is "out there" and we are "in here" ... when all of the wisdom that built it and plays it is actually within.  I know, there are gaps in all of that.

When I was young, I used to have dreams that I could fly.  Or that I was trying to fly anyway.  I think M. has said that before though.