What is wrong with G. Schirmer?

[contrapunctus]

Everybody hear seems to think that schirmer is a horrible publishing company, please let me know why. I have a number of works published by them that I think are excellent because they do not have, or have verey few, of those stupid fingering numerals; the ones I have are checked from multiple sources; and they have good intro texts. Please comment.

[steinwayguy]

They're not Urtext.

[contrapunctus]

They're not Urtext.

Are you saying we should only buy urtext?

[Rach3]

Good question! I really don't know, I've been indoctrinated by the urtext-fanatics so thoroughly, I don't even understand the debate. Anything without "urtext" in it makes me queasy.

[tabris]

I don't think that Schirmer is necessarily a bad publishing company.  But it is true that Urtext is quite superior.  However because Urtext does not publish music by more recent composers such as Prokofiev, Saint-Saens, and Rachmaninov I rely on either Schirmer or International Music Company for these works.  Other than that I'd try to go with Urtext as often as possible.  Even though it can be quite pricy they are definitely worth it.  They are generally the most accurate of all editions and are also durable.  Plus you can actually see all the notes!... something not always true in Alfred editions (cough cadenzas... cough cough).

[rob47]

Everybody hear seems to think that schirmer is a horrible publishing company, please let me know why. I have a number of works published by them that I think are excellent because they do not have, or have verey few, of those stupid fingering numerals; the ones I have are checked from multiple sources; and they have good intro texts. Please comment.

I got the schirmer Rach 3. 14.95 canadian at Dave Shcnerder's in Toronto.  fantastic.  Acutally now that I think about it I bought it at Remyni across the street from teh Conservatory, but there is nothing wrong with Schirmer.  Are you a student? If you are you're teacher will point out anything lethally wrong with it. So don't fret!

[Floristan]

Schirmer published editions, and some of the editors were very heavy handed, very sure they knew what the composer intended...but really they just muddy the waters, make it harder to understand the composer's intent.  They routinely put in phrase and pedal markings not in the original, and frequently metronome marks at the beginning that are only their opinion.  It's hard to sort through what's good editing and what's garbage, so it's usually easier to go with Urtext (also not all created equal, but that's another thread).  Some editions are special -- like Cortot's Chopin or Tovey's Beethoven.  They are not in the same sub-class as the Schirmer editions.  But it's hard to beat the Schirmer prices.   Schirmer even printed some urtext -- I have their urtext Beethoven sonatas -- but the paper, ink, binding, size of the notes, etc. are all so inferior to Henle or Wiener urtext.  If you can afford it, buy the very best scored you can.  They're a lifetime investment.  The Urtext scores will hold up for 20-30 years of normal use.  Just my 2 cents.

[bernhard]

In general I agree with Floristan. However it must be said that on occasion Schirmer can be absolutely brilliant, as for instance in their superlative “Scarlatti – 60 sonatas” (edited by Ralph Kirkpatrick), which is “the” edition to go for. It is a real shame that Kirkpatrick did not go the whole way and did the complete sonatas.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[quantum]

I agree with Floristan.  Many, but not all Schirmer publications have had editiors with large egos who thought THEY knew what the composer intended by adding endless coments and score markings - with abandon.   The worst part is that the editorial "suggestions" are very hard to make out from the composer's actual marks.  A student may interpret such marks as coming directly from the composer, and thus instill a false sense of authenticity. 

To add to the list of special Schirmer editions - Scarlatti Sonatas edited by Kirkpatrick.  In some sense more "urtext" than the Longo edition. 

[Barbosa-piano]

 My favorite Schirmer books are the antique ones, that I have on my collection from 1905. They are superior compared to today's ones, the paper is better, engraving and bounding is much better. I bought a new Schirmer book, and was a little disappointed. They are ok for studying and taking notes, but some of the cadenzas and pages are blured. The pedal marks and phrasings are not the best. The older books for most editions are better than today's, the pages are larger and engravings are better. G. Schirmer is a good way to save money on sheet music...

[nomis]

How correct a musical text is is dependant on the editor(s), no matter how many "Urtext" signs there are on the front of the book. For example, there is still not an edition of Chopin's complete piano works which contain all his original pedal marks, probably because there are so many numerous editions of his works, which is why going to the first editions isn't always good.

On the other hand, it is dependant on the aims of the editor and the social conditions and perceptions that also affect the text. Czerny wanted to "transcribe" Bach's works for the PIANO, hence there are many dyanmic and expression markings. Unfortunately, he did not hesistate to change the text either, as it did not correspond to his musical rules and values.

Many editions of G.Schirmer are of the pre-non-interventionist approach, hence why the company has a bad reputation and their musical text is unfaithful. Their printing quality is also sub-standard, but their books open up very well (apart from Kirkpatrick's Scarlatti Edition). Still, they have most of the notes, so if you're on a budget you can buy their editions. Dover are superior though, as on the whole they choose out of copyright editions that are very good e.g. their two Ravel books are probably the editions that most performers use; their Chopin is also pretty good, as it was edited by Mikuli, who was one of the last students of Chopin, and he had many manuscripts edited by Chopin during lessons. Mikuli also endeavoured to find the source, the true musical text, so you could say that his edition was one of the first Chopin Urtexts. It also contains pedal markings that some Urtexts do not e.g. Henle has the absence of an important marking in Scherzo No.1, but I can't remember where, but Mikuli has it.

In general I agree with Floristan. However it must be said that on occasion Schirmer can be absolutely brilliant, as for instance in their superlative “Scarlatti – 60 sonatas” (edited by Ralph Kirkpatrick), which is “the” edition to go for. It is a real shame that Kirkpatrick did not go the whole way and did the complete sonatas.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

He probably just got sick of Scarlatti after the many years he devoted to writing his biography.

[jhon]

The only problem with Schirmer editions is that it's the most "conservative," (which is but inevitable for it's one of the oldest publisher of classical music).  What do I mean by "conservative?"  Basically, Schirmer never publish works known as inauthentic (although such scores do exist). 

For example, when I was looking for a Chopin complete Waltzes collection, I saw that Schirmer only provided 14 waltzes while URTEXT has 19 walztes;  Schirmer excluded 5 that's known to be doubtful.  (Well, actually, Chopin has 20 waltzes wi th score available, authentic or not.)  To sut the story, I bought the Urtext and it's cheaper - never mind the boring and plain cover!

The only thing best about Schirmer is that you don't have to worry about wrong notations; it would seldom contain errors.

[sonatainfsharp]

Take a Schirmer edition + an Urtext edition + a book on performance practices for given era = your answer.

I had the same question until I read about performance practices for a certain piece then compared the text to the Schimer. In fact, I think it was the 2nd movement of K.545 I used as my test piece. I almost puked once I made the comparison.

[Derek]

my piano prof. hates Schirmer for Beethoven sonatas...

[dmk]

A former student of mine had an older volume of Schirmer Mozart sonatas.  The K numbers were not even correct.

Schirmer's Mozart and Beethoven tend to have a lot of phrasing/staccato markings which are either not in the original text or can be inappropriate with regards to contemporary performance practice.

I am not a fan......that said there are many things you can get in nothing but a Schirmer, I have Samuel Barber's complete works in a Schirmer.  In the absence of being able to find these in another edition I am pretty happy with them!

Bernhard has already mentioned to Kirkpatrick Scarlatti's....on this subject, has anyone got any comments on Henle's 3 volumes of Scarlatti Sonatas???

[jhon]

How correct a musical text is is dependant on the editor(s), no matter how many "Urtext" signs there are on the front of the book. For example, there is still not an edition of Chopin's complete piano works which contain all his original pedal marks, probably because there are so many numerous editions of his works, which is why going to the first editions isn't always good.

On the other hand, it is dependant on the aims of the editor and the social conditions and perceptions that also affect the text. Czerny wanted to "transcribe" Bach's works for the PIANO, hence there are many dyanmic and expression markings. Unfortunately, he did not hesistate to change the text either, as it did not correspond to his musical rules and values.

Many editions of G.Schirmer are of the pre-non-interventionist approach, hence why the company has a bad reputation and their musical text is unfaithful. Their printing quality is also sub-standard, but their books open up very well (apart from Kirkpatrick's Scarlatti Edition). Still, they have most of the notes, so if you're on a budget you can buy their editions. Dover are superior though, as on the whole they choose out of copyright editions that are very good e.g. their two Ravel books are probably the editions that most performers use; their Chopin is also pretty good, as it was edited by Mikuli, who was one of the last students of Chopin, and he had many manuscripts edited by Chopin during lessons. Mikuli also endeavoured to find the source, the true musical text, so you could say that his edition was one of the first Chopin Urtexts. It also contains pedal markings that some Urtexts do not e.g. Henle has the absence of an important marking in Scherzo No.1, but I can't remember where, but Mikuli has it.

He probably just got sick of Scarlatti after the many years he devoted to writing his biography.

I agree with this.  The bottomline is, it all depends in the EDITOR; Schirmer is just a PUBLISHER.  For instance, some Chopin Schirmer books are Friedheim edition (Did I spell it correct?) while others are Mikuli edition.  It's just so happen that most editors/editions that belonged to Schirmer is just as old and conservative as schierm itself!