psychotic conservatory? Does it exist?

[Derek]

I was just told by a friend of mine that there is a conservatory in moscow where for the first two years, students practice nothing but technic. If they are heard playing anything else, they are removed from the school.

Is this true??

[rob47]

this is true.  It's called kindergarten. hahahahahaha....

was that racist?

[lostinidlewonder]

The Russian Schools love to torture students to play big leaps and be able to have big strong f sounds and big chords. Russian schools like to play lots of Russian music so the technique needed is not easy, a lot of specialised attention and time. I guess they would like to think that Russians play the best Russian music, so they might obsess over techniques found in Russian composers music, but I doubt they would remove you from the school if you started playing other things. That sounds...... yes psychotic.

[i_m_robot]

they dont remove the students they simply cut off body parts

tis possible to play with one leg

[hodi]

i bet kissin studied there!!!

[chopet]

I heard someting like that. About some place where they make you play nothing but scales and arpeggios for the first year and hanon for the second year, and if you cant play the entire book in under an hour at the end of the year you do it for another year, until you can....
something like that anyway

[Bouter Boogie]

i bet kissin studied there!!!

Or Pletnev! 

[jhon]

What exactly do you guys mean by "psychotic?"  Purely and over classical? 

My teacher told me when she was in conservatory then (1950s), she has been once SUSPENDED when the "psychotic" piano professors heard her practicing jazz.  She also tells during her time, Gershwin is absolutely banned at her conservatory - actually, it's a state university here in the Philippines.

She adds that such "psychotic" music curriculum is now very rare, possibly manifested only by German and Russian training where such attitude is considered a "discipline." 

Are these European conservatories still not open to modern and jazz pieces?  I'm sure US is more open (as classical music really began in Europe).  (But according to my teacher again, in the whole history of Carnegie Hall, it was only Gershwin and Tatum that had been allowed to play (jazz); otherwise, purely classical performnaces are being held there.
       

[Barbosa-piano]

 I heard from my friends that they make the students practice 8 hours a day... (No wonder why Rachmaninoff skipped his classes...) But I don't know if this is true. The Russian and German schools  are known as "pianist factories", with exaustive practice and traditional teaching and practicing methods... But we have pretty good results from it: Rachmaninoff, Glinka, Valentina Igoshina, many others...
 Especially during Rachmaninoff's time, I believe that they used physical violence as part of their teaching... . I know that in Brazil in the early 1900's they did! They would hit your hands with a stick if you missed any notes...
 Well, limiting students only to practice seems like a fair method, except if the student has enough talent that he needs freedom to practice what he wishes...
 Well, as Rachmaninoff said: Only the art that is free has true meaning...
I wish I could go in one of those conservatoires...

[BoliverAllmon]

one of my teachers studies in vienna when he was younger. He said that they worked only on technical studies for 3 years straight. Hanon had to be played in under an hour or they were failed. They practiced 10 hours  a day. At one point he felt like killing himself he couldn't find a reason to go onward.

boliver

[Siberian Husky]

sounds like another potential Columbine

[etudes]

one of my teachers studies in vienna when he was younger. He said that they worked only on technical studies for 3 years straight. Hanon had to be played in under an hour or they were failed. They practiced 10 hours  a day. At one point he felt like killing himself he couldn't find a reason to go onward.

boliver

from vienna i only know Hans Kann and Roland Keller


maybe Alfred Brendel too.

[jhon]

I heard from my friends that they make the students practice 8 hours a day... (No wonder why Rachmaninoff skipped his classes...) But I don't know if this is true. The Russian and German schools  are known as "pianist factories", with exaustive practice and traditional teaching and practicing methods... I believe that they used physical violence as part of their teaching...

HAHAHA - "pianist factories..." (...as if the students are typical factory workers ...)  And add that physical torture...

one of my teachers studies in vienna when he was younger. He said that they worked only on technical studies for 3 years straight. Hanon had to be played in under an hour or they were failed. They practiced 10 hours a day. At one point he felt like killing himself he couldn't find a reason to go onward.

boliver

I think Austria (Vienna) is like Russian and German training.  Well...most European training are like that; after all, the advent of classical music is in Europe.  Regarding Hanon, it's really intended by the composer to be played in one hour as what he wrote in the post/end-note of the book.   

Anyway, I see no wrong practicing 6 to 8 or even 10 hours a day.  When you're really a pianist by vocation and occupation, such is simply as normal as a regular office emplyee working 8 hours a day or sometimes even having overtime.  Also, this long practice isn't actually all playing "as is" - it may involves warm-up, sight-reading, reviewing past pieces, learning new pieces, polishing to-be-performed pieces, arranging/improvising, and even composing, etc.  Pianists should not simply practice only if they have to preprare for a specific pending concert; regular practice even w/ no upcoming performance is needed for the "maintenance" of your pieces (your talent).  These concerts opportunities just bloom once in a blue moon. 

 

[Nightscape]

There is a conservatory in Greece, the Xenakis Institute of Musical Studies.  This place is crazy!!  Students are required for thier senior recital to perform a work by Xenakis.  They also take classes studying the construction of his music.  Students who don't show up to class are forced to listen to Xenakis's "Herma" 8 times in succession.

[BoliverAllmon]

There is a conservatory in Greece, the Xenakis Institute of Musical Studies.  This place is crazy!!  Students are required for thier senior recital to perform a work by Xenakis.  They also take classes studying the construction of his music.  Students who don't show up to class are forced to listen to Xenakis's "Herma" 8 times in succession.

I am not familiar with xenakis so what is the big deal about this?

boliver

[pianowelsh]

its quite common in russian conservatories to study only technique until you have mastered it then - and only then can you begin on repertoire - this is still the case in some of them today!!! I believe the Moscow used to ask for something like 6 Chopin etudes as the entry exam - i have no idea whether they still do?!?(anyone studying there) In the junior department they had to do one or two Chopin studies a year from very young age. Some colleges favour very systematic approach ie once sound technique you learn Bach 48 then Beethoven 32 then the transcendentals etc. Whether one can really say this is a successful method of training pianists ?!?! there are certainly very few russian trained pianists with poor technique similarly Japanese pianists where alot of russian methods are used (china and korea too) and one has to admit when one takes a look at the competition circuit most do come from these countries - and what a remarkable heritage  but the problem and it is a problem is when you trained your hardest and mastered all the liszt transcendentals and Chopin studies etc and then by some mischance fail an exam and get kicked out or just fail to cut the mustard on the international scene is that 10-12 hrs practicing a day dosent really equip you too well for the 'real' world - which getting back to reality is where most people live! The suicide rates at some of these conservatories and number of people stuffering poor health (alcoholism, sleep related illnesses and strain injuries) is actually quite frightening.  Conservatoire curricula are slowly adapting to a broader base which focuses more on transferrable skills and general development and i believe in many ways this is a good thing but i think in certain countries it will take a long time to erode a very very strong heritage of as you put it 'psychotic conservatories'

[BoliverAllmon]

Why should the conservatories lower their standards? All that is going to do is lower the quality of pianists in the world. Expect the best and you will get the best. My opinion at least.

boliver

[Derek]

It seems to me that studying repertoire is equally if not vastly more effective for building up technique. Not to mention improvisation which is rarely required by conservatories anymore except perhaps French organist conservatoires.  I'd much rather slit my wrists and hurl myself off of a cliff than go to a conservatory that had me do nothing but technique for two years.

[Bulgarian]

Wait a minute, I think you are going too far. I am from Eastern Europe and most of my teachers has studied or specialized in Moscow and I have never heard such horror stories. I think this is especially absurd to think that they study only technique in Russia. For heaven's sake read "The Art of Piano Playing" by Neuhaus (which is "the bible" of the Russian school) or the books of G. Kogan, N. Perelman and all the other great Russian teachers. They all hardly give technique any mentioning at all. In fact they are extremely critical of pianists for whom the technique is a goal by itself.
I don't deny that people work like crazy there and teachers often make their life miserable, but the Russian idea ( I am talking of the Old Russia at least) was that if you play piano YOU HAVE TO SACRIFICE YOUR LIFE IN THE NAME OF THIS GREAT ART, period. If you don't - you are not supposed to be a professional pianist.

[nomis]

There is an article in the Etude by Rachmaninov which shows that they are still using the same system for over a hundred years:

II. TECHNICAL PROFICIENCY

It goes without saying, that technical proficiency should be one of the first acquisitions of the student who would become a fine pianist. It is impossible to conceive of fine playing that is not marked by clean, fluent distinct, elastic technique. The technical ability of the performer should be of such a nature that it can be applied immediately to all the artistic demands of the composition to be interpreted. Of course, there may be individual passages which require some special technical study, but, generally speaking, technique is worthless unless the hands and the mind of the player are so trained that they can encompass the principal difficulties found in modern compositions. In the music schools of Russia great stress is laid upon technique. Possibly this may be one of the reasons why some of the Russian pianists have been so favorably received in recent years. The work in the leading Russian conservatories is almost entirely under supervision of the Imperial Music Society. The system is elastic in that, although all students are obliged to go through the same course, special attention is given to individual cases. Technique, however, is at first made a matter of paramount importance. All students must become technically proficient. None are excused. It may be interesting for the readers of THE ETUDE to know something of the general plan followed in the Imperial music schools of Russia. The course if none years in duration. During the first five years in duration. During the first five years the student gets most of his technical instruction from a book of studies by Hanon, which is used very extensively in the conservatories. In fact, this is practically the only book of strictly technical studies employed. All of the studies are in the key of C. They include scales, arpeggios, and other forms of exercises in special technical designs. At the end of the fifth year an examination takes place. This examination is twofold. The pupil is examined first for proficiency in technique, and later for proficiency in artistic playing---piece, studies, etc. However, if the pupil fails to pass the technical examination he is not permitted to go ahead. He knows the exercises in the book of studies by Hanon so well that he knows each study by number, and the examiner may ask him, for instance, to play study 17, or 28, or 32, etc. The student at once sits at the keyboard and plays. Although the original studies are all in the key of C, he may be requested to play them in any other key. He has studied them so thoroughly that he should be able to play them in any key desired. A metronomic test is also applied. The student knows that he will be expected to play the studies at certain rates of speed. The examiner states the speed and the metronome is started. The pupil is required, for instance, to play the E-flat major scale with the metronome at 120, eight notes to the beat. If he is successful in doing this, he is marked accordingly, and other tests are given. Personally, I believe this matter of insisting upon a thorough technical knowledge is a very vital one. The mere ability to play a few pieces does not constitute musical proficiency. It is like those music boxes which possess only a few tunes. The student’s technical grasp should be all embracing. Later the student in given advanced technical exercises, like those of Tausig. Czerny is also very deservedly popular. Less is heard of the studies of Henselt, however, notwithstanding his long service in Russia. Henselt’s studies are so beautiful that they should rather be classed with pieces like the studies of Chopin.

[anda]

yes, the russian school does emphasize on technique as prerequisite for anything else you might want to play. however, i have never heard of (and i can find it very hard to believe) any student being kicked out of the school for playing something else outside the programma. quite the opposite - you are encouraged to work on as much material as you can handle.

as for "how many hours of practice" - nobody asks you to practice 8 or 10 hours. you just do it because there's no other way to get all material done in time for exams.

[BoliverAllmon]

yes, the russian school does emphasize on technique as prerequisite for anything else you might want to play. however, i have never heard of (and i can find it very hard to believe) any student being kicked out of the school for playing something else outside the programma. quite the opposite - you are encouraged to work on as much material as you can handle.

my teacher didn't get kicked out for playing other stuff, but he did gets marks off his grade. Something like a letter grade.

[anda]

my teacher didn't get kicked out for playing other stuff, but he did gets marks off his grade. Something like a letter grade.

what do you mean by "other stuff"? other works different from the programma?
and did he get a lower grade simply for working on something else, or because this interfered with what he was supposed to work on?

[BoliverAllmon]

what do you mean by "other stuff"? other works different from the programma?
and did he get a lower grade simply for working on something else, or because this interfered with what he was supposed to work on?

He was working on Hanon and other exercises. If he was caught playing anything else his grade was docked. They told him to play like God, you must have the technique of God. Stop wasting time playing other music that won't create a God-like playing ability.

boliver

[anda]

He was working on Hanon and other exercises. If he was caught playing anything else his grade was docked. They told him to play like God, you must have the technique of God. Stop wasting time playing other music that won't create a God-like playing ability.

boliver

wow, i've never heard of anything like that! it's hard to believe that teachers who had read neuhaus can do something like this...
anyway, this must have happened sometimes in the 70s, i believe that was the period when the moscow conservatory was more "nazi-camp"-like - i think things have changed since...

[BoliverAllmon]

wow, i've never heard of anything like that! it's hard to believe that teachers who had read neuhaus can do something like this...
anyway, this must have happened sometimes in the 70s, i believe that was the period when the moscow conservatory was more "nazi-camp"-like - i think things have changed since...

I am not sure when he was in school.

I know of American schools that do the same thing if you are caught playing jazz.

[Dazzer]

sounds like how rachmaninov started off at his teacher's house. haha

[BoliverAllmon]

sounds like how rachmaninov started off at his teacher's house. haha

I think he lived with his teacher for a while.

[jhon]

There is an article in the Etude by Rachmaninov which shows that they are still using the same system for over a hundred years:

TECHNICAL PROFICIENCY

It goes without saying, that technical proficiency should be one of the first acquisitions of the student who would become a fine pianist. It is impossible to conceive of fine playing that is not marked by clean, fluent distinct, elastic technique. The technical ability of the performer should be of such a nature that it can be applied immediately to all the artistic demands of the composition to be interpreted. Of course, there may be individual passages which require some special technical study, but, generally speaking, technique is worthless unless the hands and the mind of the player are so trained that they can encompass the principal difficulties found in modern compositions. In the music schools of Russia great stress is laid upon technique. Possibly this may be one of the reasons why some of the Russian pianists have been so favorably received in recent years. The work in the leading Russian conservatories is almost entirely under supervision of the Imperial Music Society. The system is elastic in that, although all students are obliged to go through the same course, special attention is given to individual cases. Technique, however, is at first made a matter of paramount importance. All students must become technically proficient. None are excused. It may be interesting for the readers of THE ETUDE to know something of the general plan followed in the Imperial music schools of Russia. The course if none years in duration. During the first five years in duration. During the first five years the student gets most of his technical instruction from a book of studies by Hanon, which is used very extensively in the conservatories. In fact, this is practically the only book of strictly technical studies employed. All of the studies are in the key of C. They include scales, arpeggios, and other forms of exercises in special technical designs. At the end of the fifth year an examination takes place. This examination is twofold. The pupil is examined first for proficiency in technique, and later for proficiency in artistic playing---piece, studies, etc. However, if the pupil fails to pass the technical examination he is not permitted to go ahead. He knows the exercises in the book of studies by Hanon so well that he knows each study by number, and the examiner may ask him, for instance, to play study 17, or 28, or 32, etc. The student at once sits at the keyboard and plays. Although the original studies are all in the key of C, he may be requested to play them in any other key. He has studied them so thoroughly that he should be able to play them in any key desired. A metronomic test is also applied. The student knows that he will be expected to play the studies at certain rates of speed. The examiner states the speed and the metronome is started. The pupil is required, for instance, to play the E-flat major scale with the metronome at 120, eight notes to the beat. If he is successful in doing this, he is marked accordingly, and other tests are given. Personally, I believe this matter of insisting upon a thorough technical knowledge is a very vital one. The mere ability to play a few pieces does not constitute musical proficiency. It is like those music boxes which possess only a few tunes. The student’s technical grasp should be all embracing. Later the student in given advanced technical exercises, like those of Tausig. Czerny is also very deservedly popular. Less is heard of the studies of Henselt, however, notwithstanding his long service in Russia. Henselt’s studies are so beautiful that they should rather be classed with pieces like the studies of Chopin.

It is said here that such curriculum is good for 9 years and the first 5 years are virtually purely Hanon?  I feel that such is not only psychotic, but is also obsessive-compulsive.  But who knows if this is really followed - students can of course learn any pieces they wish to in the comfort of their own time (such as when they are at home).

Anyway, let's not forget that Russia, like Germany, had been a COMMUNIST and in communist countries, all institutions, including schools, are own and controlled by such communist government which is just too "disciplinarian."

[BoliverAllmon]

It is said here that such curriculum is good for 9 years and the first 5 years are virtually purely Hanon?  I feel that such is not only psychotic, but is also obsessive-compulsive.  But who knows if this is really followed - students can of course learn any pieces they wish to in the comfort of their own time (such as when they are at home).

Anyway, let's not forget that Russia, like Germany, had been a COMMUNIST and in communist countries, all institutions, including schools, are own and controlled by such communist government which is just too "disciplinarian."

DOWN WITH THE COMMIS UP WITH WOODSTOCK!!!!!!!!!!

[Rach3]

n/m

[Nightscape]

It is said here that such curriculum is good for 9 years and the first 5 years are virtually purely Hanon?  I feel that such is not only psychotic, but is also obsessive-compulsive.  But who knows if this is really followed - students can of course learn any pieces they wish to in the comfort of their own time (such as when they are at home).

Anyway, let's not forget that Russia, like Germany, had been a COMMUNIST and in communist countries, all institutions, including schools, are own and controlled by such communist government which is just too "disciplinarian."

Russia was certainly not communist when Rachmaninoff was in school there.

And it is incorrect to say that Russia and East Germany "had been a COMMUNIST".  More appropriately, Russia and East Germany adopted at one point a government based on the principles of communism.  Saying someone or something is "a COMMUNIST!" is a cheap way of playing on people's fears and certainly a subtle reference (in my mind) to propaganda.

I would have thought that at this point in time, Mcarthyism would have subsided!   Please don't make superficial judgements based on heresay and popular opinion - saying something is "disciplinarian" does nothing to further a discussion, it only creates an atmosphere ripe of gossip and stereotypes.

Sadly, Hanonism was not confined to Russia.  Around that time, there was global obession with finding a sort of psuedo-scientific method to playing the piano, as at that point in time, more and more people became interested in learning to play as the great concert pianists began to rise in fame and numbers. 

[ted]

I do not think this "psychotic" approach is at all confined to conservatories or to any country. I knew several teachers here who were just as bad in their own way. I had an interview, when I was about ten, with the then "best" teacher in the country. He said I "wasn't allowed" to do anything but exercises for six months and absolutely no jazz or ragtime.  A ten year old boy for heaven's sake ! I flagged him away and got somebody with a few brains. He kept on ringing my father and trying to change my mind but what on earth would have been the point ?

[Derek]

I'm under the impression a vast number of people WANT music to be like science or mathematics--you learn the hard, boring underpinnings before you get to the real stuff. But it really isn't like that at all, it can be enjoyed from start to finish (death), and someone can become equally virtuosic by that method as by the "pretending to be mathematics" method.

It really depends on the individual---if you have an internal drive to become virtuosic, you will. Its that simple, I think.

[Egghead]

I'm under the impression a vast number of people WANT music to be like science or mathematics--you learn the hard, boring underpinnings before you get to the real stuff.

er - imho it is not all THAT different. There don't have to be hard, boring underpinnings. Do you dislike maths? 

But it really isn't like that at all, it can be enjoyed from start to finish (death), ...

indeed - as can mathematics and science 
Though it may at times require effort to make music (or anything else) enjoyable. 

[Bulgarian]

Russia was certainly not communist when Rachmaninoff was in school there.

And it is incorrect to say that Russia and East Germany "had been a COMMUNIST".  More appropriately, Russia and East Germany adopted at one point a government based on the principles of communism.  Saying someone or something is "a COMMUNIST!" is a cheap way of playing on people's fears and certainly a subtle reference (in my mind) to propaganda.

I would have thought that at this point in time, Mcarthyism would have subsided!   Please don't make superficial judgements based on heresay and popular opinion - saying something is "disciplinarian" does nothing to further a discussion, it only creates an atmosphere ripe of gossip and stereotypes.

Sadly, Hanonism was not confined to Russia.  Around that time, there was global obession with finding a sort of psuedo-scientific method to playing the piano, as at that point in time, more and more people became interested in learning to play as the great concert pianists began to rise in fame and numbers. 

Dear Nightscape,

Thank you very much for your coments. They are indeed the most reasonable and objective thoughts in this discussion.  I was hoping to get some comments from people who have INDEED studied at the Moscow Conservatory, so perhaps they can give us some light about their experiences there. For my part, I can only repeat that I just don't believe that the described system - playing technique for a several years EVER took part in Moskow atleast in the 20th century. Pretty much all my teachers have specialised there and all they had very inspiring and positive experiences. Plus I have read many books by their great teachers, who so rarely mention anything about technique at all.

[thierry13]

I am not familiar with xenakis so what is the big deal about this?

boliver

Atonal modern music, and his pieces are AT LEAST as hard as Sorabji's. Am I needing to say more 

[BoliverAllmon]

Atonal modern music, and his pieces are AT LEAST as hard as Sorabji's. Am I needing to say more 

sure why not?

[vivi]

well i know one of my teachers, who studied at the moscow conservatory, never made me play scales or any technique things besides some hannon as a warmup exercize. She believed you can learn all the technique from the pieces. I don't know if this is what they professed at the conservatory though.
I also know that Richter, who attended the Saint Petersburg Rimsky-Korsakov conservatory has stated in an interview that he has never in his life played scales or arpeggios.