Exact same run in two pieces by seperate composers

[Derek]

I am aware these runs start at different places but the pattern is exactly the same:



Do you think this is a coincidence or is Chopin consciously quoting Beethoven?

My personal guess is that this run is one of those physically convenient ones that can be found independently by people who improvise obsessively on the piano.  However Chopin probably played Beethoven's sonatas,  so perhaps its one of those situations where he did learn the run by Beethoven but did not consciously decide to quote Beethoven when he composed/improvised the ideas for Fantasy Impromptu.

[rob47]

whereas Beethoven's is just a V7 - I in c#minor, the A trill a suspension, Chopin's is much more harmonically diverse. Chopin is in the midst of borrowing V ^6/5 of V7 to I. i think.

[Daevren]

Chopin didn't order the FI burned for nothing. I am not sure this is the reason though. I heard he stole from some other piece, which is obscure now. But in the end he was so ashamed by FI he ordered it burned. But 'they' didn't listen.

Thirteen notes in succesion exactly the same, only an octave higher. I am not sure what he was thinking. Could be coincidence.

Rob47, does this make a difference when Derek is wondering if he copied this consciously? He isn't asking if this is justifiable or something, right?

[rob47]

true.  Why, did I come across as a know it all there? 

My theory is poor.

But again I'm just saying it's not structurally the exact same, therefore not an exact copy.  Sure the 13 notes in succession or the same, but any romantic composer has used those same 13 notes in succession at least once I'd imagine.

[rob47]

OOOOOOohhhhh now I get it, he's doesnt care about where or not they're the same, he's just asking if we think Chopin copied Beethoven in a sort of hommage to type deal.

hahaha I'm a jerk.

I don't know if he did. Maybe, maybe not.  Ya I read somewhere the FI was a rip off of a bunch of things, wheter or not he was honouring Beethoven is beyond me.

[pianiststrongbad]

I noticed these particular passages being similar a few years ago when i learned both of these peices at the same time and I thought it was odd when I first noticed it.  I am not sure though if Chopin copied Beethoven. 

[Derek]

My purpose was not to accuse Chopin of copying Beethoven but to consider the possibility that certain runs can be arrived at independently by composers who love to improvise. Of course its justifiable;  music wouldn't be worth listening to if there was never anything familiar in it.

Daevren: It seems like all of the famous composers wanted their most popular works to be burned. I think the reason for this is very simple: if you compose something and you're so close to the material, you'll be over-perfectionist about it and think it is crap.  Unbiased listeners however will recognize its beauty and judge it accordingly.

There is a REASON why Fantasy Impromptu is popular. I've read Beethoven felt he wrote far better sonatas than the Moonlight. Sure, maybe there are some with more detailed formal architecture....but most listeners don't care about that. They care about what the music elicits in their minds and emotions. Presence or absence of architectural and theoretical devices does not correlate with musicality.

[ted]

I think the example itself, which is a well known one, and its reasons for existing, are far less important than the underlying issue of what constitutes the interesting and distinctive in music. If Derek had instead quoted a simple arpeggio or scale as they are commonly played and said, "Look, I've found three hundred examples of this group of notes in classical pieces !", we would have admired his persistence but lamented his lack of common sense.

A mark of real creativity is surely the avoidance of the regular and the discovery of the special. The mark of this little figure is that is special, otherwise Derek would not have noticed it. Why is it special ? It just uses the notes of an ordinary scale. I can see a few reasons. It has a period of ten notes - not aligned to the prevailing metre. It has falling groups in the pattern 4+3+3 - again not aligned to either the period of ten or the groups of four semiquavers. It has a large variety of possible internal accents, unlike a straight scale or arpeggio. Not finally, it has ready improvisational grip, as Derek has pointed out.

This thread tells me so much about piano music. Heterogeneity is alive and vital; homogeneity is just note spinning. 

[viking]

This is a very interesting thread.  Although I have played these 2 pieces, sad to say, I have only become aware of the similarity of the runs through this thread.  (Really sad for playing both).  Quite interesting.  Another crappy example is the codas of La Campanella and Heroic Polonaise.  The left hand is enharmonically the same, pretty much, for about a line or two.  Pretty crappy example, but I just thought of it.  I'm sure many composers used the same series of octaves in their pieces...

SAM

[pseudopianist]

I don't think they considered it copying in those days. Take Liszt Funerallies for example, he might have borrowed a note or two from Chopins Heroic Polonaise. Also in Chopin cello sonata (2nd movement) can you heard a bar from Beethovens Op69 Cello sonata (1 mov)

[hodi]

i have the alfred publication of chopin's fantasie impromptu
this piece was published only after chopin's death
and here is what written there:

"Another explanation was put forward by Ernest Oster, according to whom Chopin felt  that his theme bore too close to resemblance to the finale of Beethoven's op.27 no.2, the "Moonlight" Sonata, and therfore would not publish it."