just curious bernhard: How did you acquire all this knowledge?
Bernhard - When you say "voices inverted" do you mean that the hands cross over each other physically, or that the left hands plays the treble clef notes as if they were bass clef notes, and vice-versa? Or something else? Also, how long (in months or years) does it take for an above average but not precocious piano player practising an hour a day, to be able to start to play the 2 + 3 part inventions?
More details would be wonderful, how about the 1st? (Then we could move through them all!) How do you teach students to play these pieces with a singing tone? I seem to recall (where is my edition...) that Bach wrote these with a progressive level of difficulty, in terms of technical considerations that is, musically that may be different.
I have the William Palmer edition of the 2/3 part inventions. Is this a good one?
As soon as you can read music you can start working on the 2 voice inventions (there is a lot of score analysis – most of the work is actually done away form the piano). With my students, I usually start them after three – four months of study (if they started as complete beginners). This is usually the time necessary for them to learn the rudiments of music notation.
Are you saying that most of your students begin playing Bach's 2 part inventions after 3 or 4 months of lessons? I've got a lot more related questions, but I'll wait and see if I've understood this correctly.
The inventions have examples of all three kinds (and some are mixed).
Would u adjust your procedure depending on the age of the std? I have a very talented 5 year old, who i have given the first invention to. I feel that she is ready for it, she could sight read half of it HS, slowly. I just wanted to check her reading. This will most likely be the most challenging piece we have looked at. I'm not sure a 'too in depth' analysis will be of the same benefit as say, a more 'mature' std. And I mean by that an age where a sdt could appreciate the 'intellectual' contruction/structure of the piece. I'm not sure she would be able to internalize the learning benefits of analysing the work in that way. But I could try...whats ur opinion/experience?
Bernhard, is there any specific resource that would have all the music theoretical analysis on all the 2/3 part inventions? ....in general is there any book/web site that is good for classical music theory?
or dedicating a whole lesson to pure technique (how to move, how to press the keys, etc.)
I have a student who I have given the first invention to. 2 weeks now. She is 5 years old. Perfect pitch, and talented. Technically she has no problem with it. It is however, much longer than most pieces she has played, and is unfamiliar. I believe this is the first 'contrapuntal' piece she has played. She has played pieces like Burgmullers Arabesque, Ballade, and Sorrow. Slowly but note perfect with impeccable timing and fluency (for her age). Also, Dolly's Dream, and easy Disney songs etc.
I have not broken it down into the motivic framework suggested, but have shown where all logical phrases occur, mainly according to hand position. And that the piece is to be learned HS, one phrase at a time, with each phrase consequently joined to the previous. What I think she may be struggling with is an issue of meaning. Finding a way to personalize the music. This way of hearing (and savoring) the cohesive, interogative, nature of Bach, and contrapuntal music in general, is what I mean by 'thinking' in a new way. But it is like the saying: u can lead a horse to water...
I did tell my std and her mother to imagine the two lines as two voices, that these are two melodies sung together. To imagine them like that and try singing along while playing, la la, sol-fa, or pitch names. I think they still don't really see 'why' she should learn a piece like this, what for? What is this going to do for her that another piece or style of music won't? It is a tiresome question, but legitamite, how to do this without sounding too intellectual?
I told her that she will have accomplished an impressive ability if she works hard and is able to play this piece. But what ability? That she could not gain in a more incramental manner, with music that she 'enjoys', that is not so 'taxing' in terms length and mental stamina?
And with the inventions, is that different from other discussions of technique you have posted?
Incredible Bernhard!I've just started working on the inventions and this will be very helpful.
I've encountered one problem while attempting this method in learning them...you say there are 46 entries of the motif, but I can only find 45!
Also...in terms of difficulty...which inventions/sinfonias are the easiest/hardest to analyze motif wise?
On your motif skeleton...do you put the motifs immediately after each other or do you put in 'rests' so that the motifs go where they should be in the piece and you are playing the piece correctly time wise?
This is probably a stupid question, but when you have your students practice this skeleton do you maintain the fingerings used when you really place the piece? It seems rather unefficient not to do so, but it feels weird when playing the motifs alone...
Thank you for your time!
Thanks again for the help! You're students are lucky to have a teacher like you! They should be very grateful because if you already do all this for the members of this forum for 'free'...I can only imagine what you do for those who pay you! Ok I seem to be stuck on Bar 21.I found the inversion (BbAGFAGBb), but I can't find the retrograde...I'm using the Palmer edition of that helps.
is there any specific resource that would have all the music theoretical analysis on all the 2/3 part inventions?
Bernhard,I have to ask you about the 21st bar again. I clearly see the inversion, but I cannot see from some reason the retrograde. I know you answered it how one should see it, but I just don't see the motif pattern. If the motif is preserved shouldn't it be rather xxxGABC so the 4 consecutive note pattern is intact?I wouldn't be suprised if I am missing something here.ThanksMarek
Hi Bernhard,thanks a lot for taking time to reply. I can for sure see the retrograde now. I guess what was confusing me all the time was the fact that this looks more like a retrograde of the inversion.I am interested in the other inventions as well. Do you know if the book mentioned by one of the previous posters is any good?An Analytical survey of the fifteen two-part inventions by JS BachBy Theodore O. JohnsonThanks for your help again.
2. Students must learn the 2 voice inventions with the voices inverted as well (that is, the right hand plays the left hand voice ,and the left hand plays the right hand voice). This is the best way to start thinking contrapunctually.
For the invention in C major, the hands never play the motif together at the same time (called stretti IIRC). So, do I bring all the left hand motifs up into the treble and play all motifs with the song with one hand and then vice versa?
ok which ones are the hardest?
Yes. Much clearer. But I notice though that there is no mention of it in your practice sessions schedule. I guess it should be done after putting the hands together?
I just tried one session of the piece. It's so much fun. And I've upgraded my image of Bach from brilliant (my impression from the Brandenburgs) to insanely brilliant (partially also from reading about how he embedded all sorts of symbols into the music). I realised why I've never tried it before - I have this impression that Bach's pieces are hard. Partially my teachers fault. She's always telling me how hard Bach's pieces are. It's not hard one bit! The left hand does feel akward, but the fun makes up for it. I've also just realised how weak my left hand actually is and that all those hours of Hanon didn't help much.The part where the retrograde and inversion overlaps is amazing. The thought of it itself is amazing enough but it's even better when you try it on the keyboard. Reading about it and actually trying it out are so different - like the difference between reading a book and actually being in the story. It reminds me of the duality of light; the experiment where light acts as waves but the wave effect disappears when you try to detect it. Makes me wonder why someone would try to skip all the fun pieces like this and go straight to Rach 3. Now, that is mind-boggling.Also, I hope to be forgiven for posting in the teacher's section of the forum...
The order Bach taught them (we don’t know for sure – but there is a good argument for it) – supposedly progressive order of difficulty - was:No.1 – CNo.4 – DmNo. 7 – EmNo. 8 – FNo. 10 – GNo. 13 – AmNo. 15 – BmNo. 14 – BbNo. 12 – AmNo. 11 – GmNo. 9 – FmNo. 6 – ENo. 5 – EbNo. 3 – DNo. 2 – CmAt this point you must keep in mind that Bach was not only considering technical difficulty but also complexity of analysis and compositional techniques, so an invention may seem easy to “play” (e.g. no. 2 in Cm) but have a great depth of complexity as a piece. Have a look here for more details:https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5143.msg49995.html#msg49995(Inventions and sinfonias: Bach’s pedagogical order of difficulty)In purely technical terms, I tend to think of them in three groups of difficulty:Easiest: 1 - 2 - 4 - 8 - 10 - 13 - 14 Intermediate: 3 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 9 Advanced: 11 - 12 - 15 Have a look here where this has been discussed.https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3187.msg27993.html#msg27993(order of difficulty of the inventions)Best wishes,Bernhard.
Most students never go to this trouble though, I have to admit. Another very good thing to do after you learned an invention (and I have yet to meet a student who is not dismayed when this is suggested Angry) is to relearn the invention in all the twelve keys Shocked.
Another very good thing to do after you learned an invention (and I have yet to meet a student who is not dismayed when this is suggested ) is to relearn the invention in all the twelve keys .
So I am in the process of learning them all. Should I start at the easiest and go forward or get the hard ones out of the way?boliver
so do you think it is possible to get them done by Sept? i already know 8, 14, and have 1 and 4 memorized and am in the polishing stages.Just to give an idea of my abilities. I memorized 1 over a period of a couple of days and 4 in a couple of hours.boliver
By the look of it, you could finish them by next week, so why wait until September?