very motivated students: is harshness justified?

[m1469]

Hello there, I have seen a few posts and discussions on students who are unmotivated in various areas of piano playing.  

But, I am wondering, what do teachers see as thier role and/or responsibilities for those students who are extremely self-motivated?  Who come to each lesson having exponentially improved since the last.  Those who never miss lessons.  Those who need no reminding of the need to practice.  Those who need very little technical assistance in how to get the fingers and hand to fit around the keys (because they are learning it through practice of the piece).  

Thank you,

m1469

[Swan]

I have a student like you're describing ... and one is becoming that way (and hopefully another in the making, though she's just started). These students are a dream to teach!

What I try and do for them is to present them challenges. Sometimes it's through repertoire - I'll send them home with a piece - or two or three and ask them to do different things with them, eg,
1. sight read through a piece once a day only (to see what sort of progress they can make with this method) then play it for me the following week.
2.  Analyse the piece and mark its form and structure and be prepared to have a discussion/demonstration - all without playing any of it.
3. Encourage them to develop their own way of getting a piece together, and ask them to explain it to me.  We can then talk about how thier method is working, and what we can do to make it even more effecient.

I set composition tasks - sometimes giving them a theme, or a key to work on.
I ask them to join my group theory course.  Arrange to take them on excursions to experience live music, send them home with CD's.  I teach them about other instruments, about periods in history.  I encourage them to sit for exams and help them through these.
Sometimes it's just a matter of keeping up with their pace and supplying the right piece/s at the right time.

However, I've never come across a student who didn't need help with some specific aspect of their playing.  Even in the higher grades I'm still demonstrating technique or designing exercises or strategies.

There's always something for the teacher to do or say or demonstrate or provide or lead to or encourage.  

I try hard to 'mould' all of my students into students like these.  I like challenges.  

[bernhard]

I agree with Swan.

I would also add this:

Since the student is already motivated, the teacher can now concentrate on pushing the student to his/her limits. And once s/he gets there, help them to overcome these limits.

Limits can come in many guises, and typically the student is unaware of them. Here are a few examples out of the top of my head (I am sure people can come up with more):

1.      Technical limits. A student may have facility in playing technically challenging pieces of a certain period/style/composer and yet be unable to play other pieces from different composers/style/period. S/he may be even very surprised that they have this limitation in the first place. That may or may not be able to overcome it on their own.

2.      Repertory limits. Some students are often stuck on a certain repertory. This is a serious limitation. You can see it in the forum. People who hate Bach, people who cannot stomach Rachmaninoff and so on and so forth. A student with such a limitation, rarely recognises it as such, but instead talks about likes and dislikes, and taste and so on. My own philosophy goes somewhere like this: “What is it that I don’t like? This is the next stage.”

3.      Cultural/educational limits. Ignorance and the bias that follows it is again a very serious limitation. Music teachers rarely teach only music – how can they, when music is such an all encompassing subject?

4.      Taste limits. As a teacher, one of the cornerstones of my philosophy is to teach only pieces a student loves. However (and usually unbeknownst to him/her) I will work ceaselessly towards expanding and refining a student’s taste.

5.      Fixed ideas. Many students come to piano lessons having a preformed idea of what it is all about. They may be very surprised when they are shown what piano learning actually entails. If a teacher cannot help a student overcome this sort of limitation, teaching and learning will not get anywhere since the student is unlikely to comply with the teacher’s instructions.

6.      Experience limits. Sometimes even adult student’s may not have enough life-experience. Sometimes one may learn more about a piano piece away from the piano, diving into the experience that will allow one to empathise with the piece. Needless to say no one can ever have enough experience (when you are just getting the hang of it, you die!).

Most times the investigation of a student’s limits will bring forth some of my own.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[m1469]

Yes, this all makes a great deal of sense to me.  I appreciate both of your responses and would like to get a little more in-depth.  I would like to specfically address the idea of "presenting them with challenges" as Swan said and "pushing the student to his/her limits" as Bernhard said.

Bernhard you mentioned that limits can come in many guises.  Should a student like this be maintaining the desire to become a performer, could they also be in need of "conditioning"?  And at times, intensive and severe conditioning.  

Quote:  Bernhard
6. Experience limits. Sometimes even adult student’s may not have enough life-experience. Sometimes one may learn more about a piano piece away from the piano, diving into the experience that will allow one to empathise with the piece. Needless to say no one can ever have enough experience (when you are just getting the hang of it, you die!).

Could it be argued that it is the teacher's responsibility to help cultivate these experiences, thereby "conditioning" the student.  Placing them in the stress of different circumstances which may take them to the very limits of one's psychi (sp?), testing the limits of one's morality, mental strength, and standard of living, and then pushing them beyond those limits?  Yet, un-be-knownst to the student (student unaware that this is an actual plan, not just a spontaneous happening).  Forcing them to "dive into the experience that will allow one to empathise with the piece" and music in general.  Perhaps pulling the rug out from under their feet numerous times, and in numerous ways, just to force them to stand again.  Would there be warrant for utter and total confusion?  And at times, even behaviors that may be construed as cruelty?

Your (everybody's) responses are greatly appreciated...

m1469

[ted]

I was one of these pupils when I was young. What my teacher usually did to stop me flying off on too many tangents of my own fantasy ( the propensity is by no means wholly bad though) was simply to demonstrate his own powers. This wouldn't work now I am a mature man but in those days its effect was indeed cautionary.

He used to repeat my improvisation by ear and expand it through many keys and styles for five minutes. He would suddenly play a ferociously difficult piece right through and look at me silently as much as to say, "Can you do that yet ?" Basically he steered me by actually doing things rather than talking about them, and by surprise - always surprise - never allowing me to think I had reached a point of conclusion or stasis.

I suppose there might have been some risk of discouragement, arriving at each lesson thinking I knew it all and leaving thinking I was a hopeless dunce. But he was a shrewd judge of character and somehow knew the right thing to do at the right moment.

[Swan]

Could it be argued that it is the teacher's responsibility to help cultivate these experiences,

And at times, even behaviors that may be construed as cruelty?
m1469

My student I mentioned often says to me "Oh you're so cruel!!" She says it very vehemently, but with a smile on her face.   Of course I'm not, and I wouldn't endorse cruelty at any stage, at any age.  

He would suddenly play a ferociously difficult piece right through and look at me silently as much as to say, "Can you do that yet ?"

Humility is a wonderful asset for a piano student, and sometmes has to be 'inflicted' so they know what their role is, and can appreciate and respect the teacher's role.  I get a great effect when I can  'dazzle' a student, and sometimes this is necessary for them to see, "ohh, okay, I can still learn a lot from you."   When they out dazzle me (playing/knowledge) then I'd help them find another teacher.  Hasn't happened yet, but I hope it will someday!  I think that would be quite a thrill to see your student become more accomplished than you.

m1469, what are YOUR thoughts about this, and what is your idea of 'conditioning' and 'cruelty'?  

[m1469]

My idea or definition of 'cruelty' in this context would be as follows:

Teacher creating...

jealousy and competition between student and student's friends, driving a wedge between them

Purposely trying to bring tears, but then angry because of it

Severe mental games; causing emotional rollercoaster

uncommunicative after major performances by student

unwilling to answer student questions honestly and to-the-point

unwilling to talk about future plans (school, etc.)

ridiculing one-on-one as well as in front of others; cutting remarks

yelling in student face; literally

general hostility and malice

lying to student; purposely trying to confuse student

purposeful inconsistent behavior (sometimes very kind)

Etc. etc.

In this context, my idea of 'conditioning' would be the use of the listed behaviors for the sake of a higher goal; performance/musical career, the building of general mental and emotional strength and stamina.

Is this behavior ever justified?  Could it come as a sort of teacher responsibility to a "green" but highly motivated and capable student?  Is it necessary for serious students to undergo this in preparation for a difficult musical future?  

As far as my opinion about it,  I am honestly not sure what to think.  This is why I ask you, I am in earnest.  I can concieve of teachers having been students under this type of "mehtod" and in turn teaching their own students in this way.  To them, it may seem necessary.


m1469

[Swan]

These ideas to me are repugnant, and in no way would I treat any other individual in such a manner, no matter what 'higher' goal I had in mind.   So no, I do not think this is the role of the teacher.  I don't think you need to be deliberately cruel to bring the best out in a person.

Is this behavior ever justified?

No.

jealousy and competition between student and student's friends,

This is the only point that I consider worthy of discussion.  Rivarly and competition can be very healthy and can have tremendous results.  However, in my studio, the emphasis is on FRIENDLY competition.  Graciousness is another quality I like to encourage within my studio.  'Let's congratulate and admire what so and so has achieved', not ,'let's concoct a magic potion for so and so's fingers to fall off during the night.'

I like to follow Suzuki's advice and "Nurture by love."

[m1469]

Yes, Swan, as I typed in these characteristics, I found myself feeling ridiculus for wondering what is right from wrong under those circumstances; of course it seems harsh.

However, while not all of these characteristics belong to a single teacher in my past, more so a compilation of 2 mainly, this is how my most inffluential teachers have treated me.   I do not currently treat my students like this, nor do I plan to.  But, then again, at this point in my teaching career I am not conciously preparing any one individual for a stage career, where they would meet harsher things from the public and from other musicians.  The reason I question whether or not it is good, is because I myself was taken to my complete limits, and in my darkest hours, found my deepest answers.

No matter what anybody tells me, I know deeply within myself where I stand.  I know that I will not be swayed easily by other's negative opinions and the expression thereof.  There are certain things that I don't question, because I already know the answer (deep questions and answers).   I do not have a big performing career at this time, some of that is by my own choosing (or maybe all of it in a way).  But when I think about performing, although I do get nervous and such, I feel that I have a purpose doing it and I walk out there with a strength that I don't know if I would have should my very inner strength have never been tested in the ways that it was.  

I just do not know for sure if this is the purpose behind that sort of treatment, or if good resulted despite of it.  Do you know what I mean?

m1469

[BajoranD]

These ideas to me are repugnant, and in no way would I treat any other individual in such a manner, no matter what 'higher' goal I had in mind.   So no, I do not think this is the role of the teacher.  I don't think you need to be deliberately cruel to bring the best out in a person.

Amen, Swan! m1469, it may just be that the fact that you found answers points to the resiliancy of your spirit, and not neccesarily some great and benevolent plan on the part of your teachers (who, to me, sound a bit unbalanced!).

I just watched the movie Miracle, the one about the 1980 US Olympic hockey team. On the DVD, there was an interview with three of the men who'd been on that team. The respect, and really, the love that these men had for their coach was obvious. They talked about the GRUELING preparation he put them through, but what I really came away from that interview with was the definite sense that the team members ALWAYS knew the coach had the team's best interest in mind. They always knew that he cared about them, and they could see the method behind his "madness". Because of that, they trusted him implicitly.

Are these teachers that you were able to trust implicitly? Did either of them bring any resolution to the situation and LET YOU KNOW that they had a great and benevolant plan in mind the whole time? Was there encouragement to balance out all the bizarre mind games? If (and I mean IF) a teacher deems it necessary to get in the face of a student and yell (and I think you can effectively get in a student's face without having to yell, by the way), in my opinion it had better be followed up by some kind of resolution to show the teacher was in control the whole time (Bernhard addressed this in another thread, that if a teacher is actually angry, they've lost control of the situation), and it was with an goal in mind. Otherwise, you're just chipping away at trust. And trust between student and teacher, especially in an art form, is ABSOLUTELY vital!!!!! Can you learn something from someone you don't trust? Sure. Can you learn something in every situation, no matter how negative? I believe so, even if it's just learning what NOT to do (for instance, you may have learned some things NOT to do with your own students!). Will you learn everything you could have if the teacher was trying to be a constructive rather than destructive force? Probably not, because some part of you will be held back, for "safety," as it were. And just because you did learn something, does that absolve the offending parties of all responsibility? Does it lessen the evil nature of their actions (and yes, when someone is deliberatly trying to be cruel to another human being, I do believe that's evil)? To that, I say a huge, resounding, NO FREAKING WAY!!!!

In the situations where a student thinks their teacher is "mean," but later on down the road realizes the teacher was really trying to build them up, I don't think there are lasting wounds that have to heal. Sure, they may have some wounds to lick immediately after the fact, but those are generally wounds to one's pride, and I think that's an okay wound to have to deal with now and again. Keeps us humble. But when you cross the line and begin to damage psyche instead of pride, that's absolutely inexcusable. I mean, come on! In that situation, you're paying someone to beat you up emotionally! Count me out!

[m1469]

Wow, you're right.  I guess that I have equated this sort of treatment with being taken seriously as a pianist.  That perhaps I had the visible potential to stake my place (whatever that may be) in the music world.  I see that I was influenced tremendously and in somewhat harmful ways.  Honestly though, I want to believe there was some good reason for it.  I suppose becuase I feel as though maybe those years have been wasted if not.

Is it really reasonable or even possible to find a teacher that meets all of the needs of a student?  Is that even the teacher's job?  Is that my job and responsibility as a teacher?  Or do "artists" just live in the dark?  It's a bit dark here.

m1469

[BajoranD]

I guess that I have equated this sort of treatment with being taken seriously as a pianist.

But on the other hand, don't make the mistake of equating this sort of treatment with NOT being taken seriously, either. I don't believe this kind of treatment has anything to do with the student, at all. I believe it has EVERYTHING to do with the teacher. You know that old break-up line, "it's not you, it's me"? In this case, try to imagine these words coming out of the teacher's mouth. Because I think they should.

Honestly though, I want to believe there was some good reason for it.  I suppose becuase I feel as though maybe those years have been wasted if not.

Did you learn anything? Did you grow? Then the time wasn't wasted. The time was what it was, and you took what you could from it. The only way the time would be wasted is if you refused to learn from it, then and now (remember, we can learn in any situation, no matter how negative). However . . .

Is it really reasonable or even possible to find a teacher that meets all of the needs of a student?

Well, it depends on what you list as "all the needs." The teacher is not a replacement parent. But (and this is my own personal philosophy of education coming out, now) I do believe that any good teacher is going to look at the student as a whole person, and is going to adjust the teaching accordingly. Sometimes, the student needs a swift kick in the butt (figuratively speaking, of course). Sometimes, the student needs a box of kleenex and a little compassion. Sometimes, the student needs a deeply intellectual examination of the piece; sometimes the student needs a good laugh. (Obviously, we're talking about the emotional responsibilities of a teacher, here; if a student has progressed beyond what a teacher can offer regarding the mechanics of playing, then that student needs to find another teacher.) Saying that, is it fair to expect one teacher to meet all of your pianistic/student needs all the time? Probably not, because we're human. Can you honestly promise your students that you'll meet ALL of their needs whenever they need to be met? Even on the days when you have a headache, or stayed up too late the night before, or just had a nasty argument with your spouse that morning? But you CAN try, and I bet you DO try, because you care about them. It's absolutely fair and reasonable to want a teacher you can trust, a teacher who's obvious goal is to build you up and help you grow, a teacher who gives you the sense that he/she really cares about how you progress. And if you find that, and your expectations are reasonable (for instance, you're not expecting the teacher to be your sole source of encouragement and inspiriation, and you're not showing up at every lesson waiting to hear, "you're the best pianist ever! I'm dropping all my other students and focussing on you alone! You are the destiny my life has been moving toward!" ), then your needs will be met. At least, that's what I think.

[BajoranD]

. . . and sometimes a teacher needs to go on, and on, and on, and write posts that are ever increasing in lenghth, and are saying the same thing 5 gazillion times, and would benefit from either some rather severe editing, or the peptol that Janice was trying to hand another member a few evenings ago . . . whew! I'm getting more long-winded the older I get! Sorry!  

[Swan]

But boy you say some good things BajoranD!

I am not conciously preparing any one individual for a stage career, where they would meet harsher things from the public and from other musicians.

Let the 'harsher things' come from somewhere other than the teacher, and let the teacher help the student deal with it when/if it happens.  I see the teacher's role as being a source of strength and dependability for the student, not the one handing out the harshness.

Having made this stand, I also do not believe the teacher's role to be all sugar and spice and all things 'nice'.  Honesty is also a quality I like in me and my students.  Disciplin and reprimanding do not need to be cruel, even though like BajoranD stated, they may not like it at the time.

I don't agree with Bernhard that a teacher needs to give a 'display' of anger to make a point.  I've always found the ole "I'm dissappointed with you," works far better for me.  But then I'm interpreting Bernhard's idea of 'display' of anger, is the yelling at a student ....  Bernhard?

[kulahola]

I think it sounds a contradiction. But the point is, there is no such perfect student. Even the best one is very far from what he actually could do.

That accepted, a teacher ought to push the student to his outmost limits. No harshness nor cruelty required. Simply asking for more, more, more in a strict way.

I always make a point that my criticisms are directed to the playing, not to the person. I always explain to my students that I dont care about their personality, only about their playing.

It s crucial that they understand and agree with that.

[m1469]

Thank you very much.  I also would really like to hear Bernhard's thoughts (if he would oblidge  ).  And whoever else may have pertinent ideas.

m1469

[BajoranD]

I also would really like to hear Bernhard's thoughts (if he would oblidge  ).  And whoever else may have pertinent ideas.

So what's this? Swan and I are chopped liver?


(just kidding)

[kulahola]

Bernie is just going to go another go at his acting methods, telling you that an efficient way of teaching is changing ways of acting (from tenderness to fainted cruelty). You know, he is not the supreme wisdom on this forum even thought he d like to be and behaves as such...

[m1469]

Of course BajoranD, you and Swan are not chopped liver (by-the-way, how do you italic write?  I try but it just turns into symbols), I have greatly appreciated both of your thoughts!

However, after having read many of Bernhard's remarks on teaching, as well as his thoughts upon the initiation of this thread, I am quite interested in what he would have to say.

Thanks again  

m1469

[reinvent]

m1469,
I think you should be teaching flying fighter planes instead of the piano.
During a pilot's first test they go through a lot of carefully planned harrassment to see if they can stand the pressure.
I've always viewed music as very therapeutic...

[kulahola]

Actually i agree with Malafox. To become a good musician you will need to stand a lot pressure. What is good with music is that at the end of the day it is not serious. What happens if a pilot  has a blackout ? the plance crashes. What happens if a surgeon has a blackout ? the patient dies. What happens if a pianist has a blackout ? Nothing. Purity of silence only. This is the good thing with our profession. Nothing bad can happen !

[BajoranD]

(But you do know I was just making a little funny, right?    )

By the way, since this is YOUR thread, and YOU asked, I'll fill you in about the italics. So no one else can get mad at me for going off topic. First of all, there are all sorts of exciting style thingies above the smile faces on the "post reply" page. They look very similar to the style thingies in most word processing programs. So, for instance, you click on the button that has an italicized I (looks like: I), then you type in between the sets of brackets. Otherwise, you can just type in the code, which goes like this: , then you type whatever it is you want italicized, then to stop you do another set of brackets [] with   /i    instead of   i  inside of the brackets. Make sense?

[m1469]

I had to bring this thread back from the dead.  I have been thinking over things a great deal and have some thoughts on this subject to share (atleast for now, maybe I will remove it later).  I don't know if I can explain it all correctly or not, but I will sure try.

I realise it is difficult to understand how some of the treatments I mentioned above could be called for.  I suppose the whole reason I asked in the first place is because I have had some deep questions as a result of having gone through it.   This is what I have come to realise (for now anyway) as a result of being able to post in this thread...

I think that everything that I experienced was done for  a reason, and with that, a reason that none of my teachers are obligated to devuldge to me.  Simply because it is not their job.  It is their job to offer what they can, and mine to learn.  

My most influential teacher knew when to push and when to pull.  I many times felt as though he were reading my mind (maybe he was  :-/).  But, when I first started with him, I could barely even talk to him because I was so shy.  I barely talked to anybody.  During the course of my first year as his student, I was filled with emense confusion and felt totally in over my head (which I was).  This forced me to find my bearings, and to grow as an individual.  It also forced me to dive head long into the repertoire that I was studying at the time.  

As Bernhard mentioned above, sometimes students have fixed ideas about what lessons are going to be like.  I definitely had some going into my time as my teachers student.  After a couple of meetings however, I had absolutely no idea what to expect in my next lesson.  To be quite honest, this was intriguing for me, and kept me well-prepared musically, alert,  and on my toes.  Within the first year, I was able to open up in ways that I never dared before.  There is a lot to be said for that.  

This teacher did not treat every student this way, or atleast not to the same extent.  I think that there were different needs.  I needed somebody who could outsmart me, outplay me, yet be sensitive enough to help me find my way, without giving me all the answers.  For me, if I do not come to realize something in my heart, it will hold little meaning.

If he were to be giving me compliments all the time, I really don't know that I would have believed it.  Psycological games almost seemed necessary in order for him to get me to grow into realising what I needed to realise, without it being too obvious.  

On a practical note, yes Swan, let the harshness come from the public.  But, if that's the only harshness I had ever learned to deal with, I would have quit, no doubt about it.  I am EXTREMELY sensitive.  My teacher knew this about me, and while I have not lost that sensitivity, I have learned how to move on when the going gets rough (though it is not always easy).  The thing is, a good teacher will teach a student how to fend for themselves, how to learn on their own, and how to be self-sufficient.  I will not always have him in my life to pick up the pieces should somebody crush my fragile ego.  

As far as the motivation part of my initial posting, it is because I am quite motivated (and especially then).  I made it quite clear to my teacher what I wanted, and he was honest with me in return.  No matter what, I plan to not only be playing for the rest of my life, but practicing, learning, improving.  Who will constantly look over my shoulder to make sure it is all going well? Me.  I have to be okay with that ultimately.

If my teacher taught me in such a way that made me relient on him, for feedback, pick-me-ups, inspiration, etc etc, I am dead in the water.  That isn't even what I really want.  Yes, deep down I want somebody to tell me everything I have wanted to hear, everything I think I need to hear, but I know now that ultimately it must come from within.  I believe it is the job of the teacher to pave the way for this, and one might say it must take whatever it takes.  He promised me that he would do whatever he could to help me towards my goal, and this is the only thing he ever promised.

There are no guarantees in this life, including in the world of piano.  Why should a teacher act as though there are?  This is a disservice to the student.

I don't know what kind of treatment is right or wrong in the pursuit of a students growth.  But, as Bernhard has eluded to in postings and threads before, a teacher is not teaching just music and piano.  A piano teacher needs to deal with the person as a whole.  

That's all for now, thanks for reading...

m1469  

[kulahola]

As Bernhard mentioned above,

 But, as Bernhard has eluded to in postings and threads before,  

Poor you ! you seem to be completely under the influence of this Ber Nerd.

Anyway seems to me that you had a cluch on your piano teacher. Quite common I guess...

[Swan]

you seem to be completely under the influence of this Ber Nerd.

...and you seem to be completely obsessed with him.  Do you have a secret crush on him kulahola.  In primary school, its quite common that kids lash out/punch/kick/tease the person they most like and admire.  I think you're secretly in love with Bernhard and are just carrying on like this to make it look otherwise.  

Kulahola and Bernhard sitting in a tree
K- I -S -S -I -N -G
First comes love, then comes marriage .

...ohh good grief  

m1469, it's very interesting that your teachers' tactics seemed to work for you.  I think it's a dangerous game to play (all that you've mentioned) and something that the normal 'teacher' without a psycology major shouldn't tackle.  If I had been treated like this, I would have changed teachers.  I changed teachers for far less when growing up.  

I think it is important to be 'different' with 'different' students.  I'm very encouraging and supportive etc with one 'type' of student, and yet in my studio at the moment is a retired labourer VERY rough around the edges that's used to being henpecked (in the most loving way) and he just doesn't respond to the, "That was good, keep going."  He works far better with, "That was awful, do it again, but concentrate when you get to this bar!"  And if he does do something well, I say, "Do it again, just to make sure you didn't fluke it."  It took me about four weeks to realise he didn't respond to the typical encouragement, and since I've changed my tactic (and I think I'm quite rude and wouldn't talk to other students like this - particularly recently divorced mothers on the brink of a nervous breakdown!) lessons for him are going really well.  He just laughs, agrees with me, and  and gets on with the task at hand.    :-/

Is this a mind game?  Perhaps...