Finding out the theme(s)

[stormx]

Hi !! 

For some composers, when listening to some of their pieces, i have a hard time finding out the theme(s)/motif(s)/idea(s).
It seems to me that the music just wanders, sounding well of course, but without a clearly identifiable theme around which the piece is composed...
Some can argue that a motif that is inmediately identifiable is probably simple and poor. I dont think so. With Scarlatti, Beethoven, or Chopin, for instance, i have no problem identifying the main idea of the piece (not at first listening, tough). And neither of them can be acused of mediocre composers !!!

Example of composers where I do not easily grab the theme(s) or motif(s) are:
Bach
Ravel
Faure (i mention him because i have recently purchased a double CD by Philipe Collard with some of his piano music).

What are your ideas on this subject?

Of course, i am assuming that every piece has a theme/motif (or several of them), that make the basis of the composition. Perhaps, this assumption is not correct

[faulty_damper]

Of course, i am assuming that every piece has a theme/motif (or several of them), that make the basis of the composition. Perhaps, this assumption is not correct   

Yes, your assumption is incorrect.  A theme and a motive are sometimes two different things.

I don't know why you lumped Bach into that category.

[stormx]

Yes, your assumption is incorrect.  A theme and a motive are sometimes two different things.

I don't know why you lumped Bach into that category.

The idea was not to start an academic argument, in which, by the way, i would not be able to participate. I have no music theory knowledge. I am a beginner piano player who enjoys listening to classical music, specially piano one.
In this "not academic" context, i call theme (or motif), the melody around which the piece is constructed, that you can often sing, and that is repeated several times trough the piece.

In what respect to Bach, i was thinking specifically about his English Suites. Other of his pieces, like his WTC or Goldberg Variations, seem more straightforward to my ears.
Mozart is another excellent example where the piece's main idea is usually clear as water !!!