New Survey: how long to win virtuoso skill?

[ericnolte]

Hello all,

   I'm reposting this survey to make the questions clearer, so that you can simply cut and paste the questions into your reply.

   When I have enough answers here,  I will offer a full explanation for why I'm interested in doing this little informal survey.  I don't want to prejudice your replies by explaining the project in advance, but let me hasten to assure you that my purposes are peaceful, my motives benevolent.  I assure you that I want only to help those who toil so earnestly in this little vineyard of music.  For the moment, may I simply enlist you in answering these questions about your musical development?

  My survey asks virtuoso pianists, of any age, how long it took you to reach this high level of accomplishment?  

  By virtuoso, I don't mean only those who enjoy a globe-trotting concert career.  But you would be, in the argot of J. K. Rowling's fictional world, keyboard wizards and witches, weaving your magic; keyboard Harry Potters and his mates and teachers at Hogwarts, learning and practicing their art and craft; but not the hapless "muggles" down in the village who never learned to fly....  If you can play passable renditions of a number of Etudes by Chopin, fugues by Bach, if you display some real facility at learning new works in a reasonable amount of time, and have made your way through a fairly wide body of piano literature , then I am hoping to hear from you.

  I thank you in advance for taking the time and thought to do this. I promise that when I get enough answers, I will  do my best to make it worth your trouble.

Best regards,
Eric Nolte

Cut and paste the following questions into your reply:


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Survey

1. At what age did you begin studying music?

2. Did you practice every day?  

How many days per week did you practice?
 
Did you practice during the summer and over holidays?  

Were there any weeks per year in which you did not play at all?

3. Roughly how many hours per day did you practice at the following ages:

Don't struggle to calculate an average number of hours; instead you should feel free to enter a range of time , e.g. to type in "30 - 45 minutes," or "2 - 3" for the range of hours you practiced each day.  

3.a.  hours/day before the age of 6? 

3.b hours/day from age 7 to 9?

3.c  hours/day  from age 10 to 12?

3.d  hours/day from age 13 to 15?

3.e  hours/day from age 16 on.

4. At what age were you introduced to music theory?  

4.a At what age did you begin learning harmony?  

4.b  At what age did you begin counterpoint?  

4.c. At what age did you begin learning more advanced aspects of analysis and structure?

5.  Are you a fluent sight reader?  

5.a  Did you work at sight-reading per se?

6.  Do you improvise?

7.  Can you play fluently by ear?

8.  Do you also make music in any tradition different from that of European concert music?

9.  Do you compose your own music too?

10.  Do you have perfect pitch?  At what age did you know you had it, or not?  Did you work to acquire it?

11.  Do you, or have you, played another instrument with any skill?

12.  Are others in your family musically accomplished?

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That's it!

[chopinetta]

ahhh... i don't belong here!

[JTownley]

 Okay, I'll take a stab at it (though I'll never forgive you, Eric, if i come out of this any nuttier than I already am!)
1. I startd playing at the age of ten. Progressed rapidly. Played Clair de Lune ( as i recall) by 11.5-12th year or so. Practice hmmm......maybe 1 hour beginning up to 3 hours by the time I injured my finger when i was 17 or so. From that point until i gave the piano up in 1981, practice was sporadic. 1981-2000 rarely touched a piano, though I retained the memory of what it was like to play those monster pieces, which helped me in my comeback. Went through a course called the Sherwood School of Music from 11 Y.O. to 14 which introduced the student to everything - I mean EVERYTHING, including harmony, theory etc. Fluent sight reader early on - took to music like a fish...well, you know the expression. I can't improvise worth a damn, but I can play by ear pretty well, unless you ask me to listen to a Rach. Etude Tableux and play it back.  I do compose (an example is on my website) including pop/soft rock songs (also on my website). Don't compose cadenzas, though I think I'd be able to if offered enough money to do it (hehe, just kidding, folks - let's not turn art into a commercial venture here!) I have what I think is excellent "relative pitch, meaning I can probably play back most of what you'd play while I wasn't looking, but not at every sitting.
How'd I do, Eric?
https://www.JoeTownley.com   Lots of piano videos!

[Andrew]

Not to worry, Chopinetta.  All these "good pianists" are just freaks of nature.  

[ericnolte]

This is for Joe Townley, who so kindly answered the first rather garbled version of my survey here.  

Joe, you very generously answered my questions with abundant details.  But now may I be an ungrateful wretch, and ask you to retake the new version?  Thank you so much!

Yours,
Eric Nolte

[JTownley]

Okay, Eric, let's give it a whirl:

1) Age 10
2 & 3) I practiced sporadically. I cannot give a definitive. I'd have to say, on average, 1.5-3 hours a day until I injured my finger when I was 17. Sporadic after that: anywhere from 1 to 3 hours per day, usually every day, depending on whether my injured finger was behaving itself or giving me a hard time.
4) Age 11
5) Fluent sightreader
6) Can't improvise to save my life!
7) Pop songs, yes, classical, no.
8. No
9) Used to (mostly junk) Now I write pop/soft rock songs (pretty good, I think) No cadenzas (unless you're willing to hire me to write one for you - hey, even musicians have to earn a living!) Don't write music out of thin air (unless the muse hits me over the head w/ a hammer, then I gotta write a pop song)
10) hybrid of perfect and relative pitch.  

https://www.JoeTownley.com

PS: Come on, friends, don't be shy (or lazy) Give eric's survey a try. It's a great way for us to get to know you better!  

[ericnolte]

  Here's my reply to my own survey.  I would imagine that you'll find my background unconventional.  I would guess that most of you enjoyed childhoods that were stable enough to allow you work and gain great skill while still kids.  My childhood was too chaotic to allow me to work intelligently and regularly at music (or really anything else...) until I was fully grown.   My accomplishment as a pianist, such as it is, did not really evolve until middle age.

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Survey

1. At what age did you begin studying music?
5

2. Did you practice every day?  
no

How many days per week did you practice?
0-7 as a kid, and 4 to 7 nowadays
 
Did you practice during the summer and over holidays?
 
not much as a child, but yes, as an adult

Were there any weeks per year in which you did not play at all?  

lots, as a child,  maybe just 1 week a year, nowadays.


3. Roughly how many hours per day did you practice at the following ages:  
 
3.a.  hours/day before the age of 6?

as much as 30 minutes

3.b hours/day from age 7 to 9?

maybe 30 minutes

3.c  hours/day  from age 10 to 12?

0

3.d  hours/day from age 13 to 15?

I studied one year at 14, and practiced maybe 1 - 2 hours/day then.  Otherwise I averaged maybe 30 minutes on those rare occasions when I bothered to practice at all.

3.e  hours/day from age 16 on.

Starting at age 28, I spent 5 years practicing 5 to 9 hours every day, mostly 7 days a week, with no real breaks for holidays.  Now I practice as much as my responsibilities as a parent allow, which is to say between 1 and 6/day, with the average closer to 1 or 2/day.


4. At what age were you introduced to music theory?  
hardly anything before 18.

4.a At what age did you begin learning harmony?  
28

4.b  At what age did you begin counterpoint?  
28

4.c. At what age did you begin learning more advanced aspects of analysis and structure?
29
5.  Are you a fluent sight reader?  

not of difficult literature

5.a  Did you work at sight-reading per se?

not nearly enough

6.  Do you improvise?
yes

7.  Can you play fluently by ear?
yes, but again, not with very difficult music

8.  Do you also make music in any tradition different from that of European concert music?
some jazz

9.  Do you compose your own music too?
yes, lots.  My work takes me to many far-flung hotel rooms, where, failing to find a piano,  I spend a lot of time composing on my laptop computer, using the Finale notation program.

10.  Do you have perfect pitch?  At what age did you know you had it, or not?  Did you work to acquire it?

No.  But I can hear an A-440 in my inner ear with nearly perfect accuracy, and from this I can measure the interval to any other note.

11.  Do you, or have you, played another instrument with any skill?

yes: trumpet and french horn at one time, but not today; and violin and viola at a fairly rudimentary level.  On the viola, I can scrape my way through a Bach cello suite without shattering windows in my house, or causing my children's fingernails to retract out of sight.

12.  Are others in your family musically accomplished?

yes, my parents were professional string players in a regional symphony, who studied with great teachers in NYC.

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[MzrtMusic]

I would never classify myself as a "virtuoso" pianist, but I think that I can answer most of your questions.

Love,

Sarah

Survey

1. At what age did you begin studying music?
age 10

2. Did you practice every day?  
yes

How many days per week did you practice?
5-7 as a child, and I practice every day now.
 
Did you practice during the summer and over holidays?
as much as I'm able.  

Were there any weeks per year in which you did not play at all?  
there are three weeks in the year that I'm heavily involved in church activites, and couldn't play.

3. Roughly how many hours per day did you practice at the following ages:  

Don't struggle to calculate an average number of hours; instead you should feel free to enter a range of time , e.g. to type in "30 - 45 minutes," or "2 - 3" for the range of hours you practiced each day.  
 
3.a.  hours/day before the age of 6?  
Didn't play

3.b hours/day from age 7 to 9?
didn't play

3.c  hours/day  from age 10 to 12?
1-2

3.d  hours/day from age 13 to 15?
1-3

3.e  hours/day from age 16 on.
1-4

4. At what age were you introduced to music theory?  
age 10

4.a At what age did you begin learning harmony?
age 10.5  

4.b  At what age did you begin counterpoint?  
15

4.c. At what age did you begin learning more advanced aspects of analysis and structure?
14

5.  Are you a fluent sight reader?
yes  

5.a  Did you work at sight-reading per se?
sometimes. I play for musical auditions, and that will give your sightreading a workout.

6.  Do you improvise?
sometimes

7.  Can you play fluently by ear?
somewhat, but probably not fluently

8.  Do you also make music in any tradition different from that of European concert music?
I play broadway music, Praise and Worship and some light jazz stuff every now and then.

9.  Do you compose your own music too?
I've made a few attempts, but nothing really serious.

10.  Do you have perfect pitch?  At what age did you know you had it, or not?  Did you work to acquire it?
I don't have perfect pitch yet, but I am working at it with my vocal teacher.

11.  Do you, or have you, played another instrument with any skill?  
I play violin and cello and I sing.

12.  Are others in your family musically accomplished?
my dad plays by ear very well, and can read music fairly well.

[ericnolte]

  Sarah's post makes me think that to call this survey "Hours to BECOME a virtuoso" might be off-putting or intimidating to many folks, so I've renamed it in a spirit more in keeping with my intention: "How long to win virtuoso skills."

  Anybody who can decently play some of the harder Chopin Etudes can certainly be said to have won some virtuoso skill, without appearing to convey an unseemly attitude of self-agrandizement.

Best,
Eric

[ericnolte]

  By the way, if you haven't noticed it yet, I have now posted, as a separate topic, an explanation of what I'm up to in running this survey.

Best,
Eric

[88keys]

1. At what age did you begin studying music?

Five or Six.

2. Did you practice every day?  

I've played every day. However, most of it was for fun, not practice. But since playing the piano tends to improve your technique, no matter your intentions, I'll call it "practice".

3. How many days per week did you practice?

If "practice" includes leisure-time playing: 7 days a week, unless I had no piano.

4. Did you practice during the summer and over holidays?  

Yes. Even more than regular days, 'cause there is more free time for piano.

5. Were there any weeks per year in which you did not play at all?  

Only when I had no piano.

3. Roughly how many hours per day did you practice at the following ages:  

I honestly don't remember, when it comes to the early ages.

Starting age 16, around 1 hour a day.

4.a At what age did you begin learning harmony?  

22.

4.b  At what age did you begin counterpoint?  

I'm still struggeling with it, unfortunately.

4.c. At what age did you begin learning more advanced aspects of analysis and structure?

23.

5.  Are you a fluent sight reader?  

Yes.

5a.  Did you work at sight-reading per se?

No. I seem to have a natural "touch" for it.

6.  Do you improvise?

I used to. Now I don't do this so often, as most of my piano time is targeted at seriously learning pieces.

7.  Can you play fluently by ear?

Yes.

8.  Do you also make music in any tradition different from that of European concert music?

Yes. Jazz in various forms, as well as popular songs (Beatles etc.).

9.  Do you compose your own music too?

Yes.

10.  Do you have perfect pitch?  At what age did you know you had it, or not?  Did you work to acquire it?

I have "almost" perfect pitch. I can recognize notes correctly in, say 80% of the cases.

I did not work to acquire it.

11.  Do you, or have you, played another instrument with any skill?  

Synthesizer (skills required are very different then the piano).

12.  Are others in your family musically accomplished?

Yes. Everyone but my father played an instrument at some point in their lives.

[Hmoll]

Although I'm more of a virtuo-so-so, than a virtuoso, by your definition, my skill is above the muggles in the village, so I'll respond to the survey.

Survey

1. At what age did you begin studying music? - 15

2. Did you practice every day?   - yes

How many days per week did you practice? - 7
 
Did you practice during the summer and over holidays?   - yes

Were there any weeks per year in which you did not play at all?  - no

3. Roughly how many hours per day did you practice at the following ages:  

Don't struggle to calculate an average number of hours; instead you should feel free to enter a range of time , e.g. to type in "30 - 45 minutes," or "2 - 3" for the range of hours you practiced each day.  
 
3.a.  hours/day before the age of 6?  - NA

3.b hours/day from age 7 to 9? - NA

3.c  hours/day  from age 10 to 12? - NA

3.d  hours/day from age 13 to 15? - 1

3.e  hours/day from age 16 on.  - 1-8

4. At what age were you introduced to music theory?   - 15

4.a At what age did you begin learning harmony?   - 15

4.b  At what age did you begin counterpoint?   - 18

4.c. At what age did you begin learning more advanced aspects of analysis and structure? - 18

5.  Are you a fluent sight reader?   - no

5.a  Did you work at sight-reading per se? - no

6.  Do you improvise? - yes

7.  Can you play fluently by ear? - no

8.  Do you also make music in any tradition different from that of European concert music? - yes (blues)

9.  Do you compose your own music too? - Have composed, but not very much.

10.  Do you have perfect pitch?  At what age did you know you had it, or not?  Did you work to acquire it? - Had perfect relative pitch by about age 20. Did not work to acquire it. I gave up piano for several years, so do not have in any longer.

11.  Do you, or have you, played another instrument with any skill?  - Yes - guitar.

12.  Are others in your family musically accomplished? - Yes.

[Diabolos]

Well, here we go  

1. At what age did you begin studying music? 3

2. Did you practice every day?   yes

How many days per week did you practice? 7
 
Did you practice during the summer and over holidays?
yes  

Were there any weeks per year in which you did not play at all?  no

3. Roughly how many hours per day did you practice at the following ages:  


 
3.a.  hours/day before the age of 6?  ca.30mins

3.b hours/day from age 7 to 9? 1 hour

3.c  hours/day  from age 10 to 12? 1 hour

3.d  hours/day from age 13 to 15? ca. 2 hours

3.e  hours/day from age 16 on. 2+hours (mostly 3-4)

4. At what age were you introduced to music theory?   10

4.a At what age did you begin learning harmony?   12

4.b  At what age did you begin counterpoint?   14

4.c. At what age did you begin learning more advanced aspects of analysis and structure? 15

5.  Are you a fluent sight reader?   yes

5.a  Did you work at sight-reading per se?  yes

6.  Do you improvise? yes

7.  Can you play fluently by ear?  yes

8.  Do you also make music in any tradition different from that of European concert music? yes, jazz and some blues

9.  Do you compose your own music too? yep

10.  Do you have perfect pitch?  At what age did you know you had it, or not?  Did you work to acquire it?

no

11.  Do you, or have you, played another instrument with any skill? no

12.  Are others in your family musically accomplished?

nope