Well Tempered Performances

[gkatele]

(this is a cross-post from elsewhere. If someone sees a dupe, my apologies. I'm hoping to get a wider audience)

I continue to grow more and more fascinated with the Well-Tempered Clavier - got 3 P & F's under my belt - sorta, and hungering for more.

It is my understanding that Bach wrote the WTC for an instrument that did not have the equal tempered tuning that we use today. In other words, today, something played in Ab sounds exactly like something played in C, except higher (or lower), right?. From what I've read/heard, that was not the case in Bach's time. Each key was tuned just a bit differently from the others, and each key had it's own "character." Even Beethoven used Eb major for his "heroic" works, and Mozart used G minor for tragedy.

So, here's my question (finally!)   

Does anyone know of a recording of the Well-Tempered Clavier that does not use equal temperament? I'd love to hear this work (either on piano or harpsichord) the way that Sebastian Bach would have heard it.

Thanks in advance,


George

[xvimbi]

Not of the top of my head, but you can do this yourself Play the pieces on a digital instrument that offers different temperaments. If you don't have a digital piano and no friend who has one, you can always go to a store.

On another note, I find it ironic that (some) people bitterly complain about using pedal in Bach, or adding notes here or there, but never even think twice about the temperament issue (same with Beethoven).

[gkatele]

On another note, I find it ironic that (some) people bitterly complain about using pedal in Bach, or adding notes here or there, but never even think twice about the temperament issue (same with Beethoven).

Thank you for your insightful reply. I'll see if I can find a store locally that has a digital that offers that option.

Your comment about pedalling I find most interesting.

Isn't it amazing that people who have strong opinions about one thing are ususally inconsistent in their thinking? Yah, buddy if you're such a Bach purist, then you should be worried about the temperament of the instrument.

Sigh....

On the other hand, remember the great quote from (I think) Lawandowska:
(paraphrasing here)

"You can play Bach the way that you want. I'll play Bach the way he wanted."



Thanks again,


George

[thalberg]

George,

Your fascination with the WTC shows you have great taste.  Not to be a know-it-all or anything, but Mozart's key of doom was D minor.  I know because I had to look it up to put it in a paper I was writing.

[jim_24601]

Somewhat tangential to the matter, but on the subject of Bach tuning have you encountered the work of Bradley Lehman? He maintains that Bach had a specific tuning in mind when he wrote the Well-Tempered Clavier and moreover included instructions for tuning it on the title page. It's been mentioned on this site before but could bear to be mentioned again because it's very interesting. There are a few recordings too, including the C major prelude from the WTC I.

(edit: pesky bbcode)

[gkatele]

George,

Your fascination with the WTC shows you have great taste. 

Hehe...

It's funny that you should mention that. I just discovered the Fugue in c minor from book II. Looks very approachable for someone at my level.

I can just see my teacher's face when i show it to her.

"ANOTHER fugue?"

Ayyup. Another fugue.

When I started taking lessons last August (after a 30 year hiatus) my teacher asked what I had played when I was young. You know, Liebestraum, some Rach preludes and the like. Now, that I'm an old man, I want to play Bach.

I find solace and crystalline clarity in his music that I didn't appreciate when i was in my 'teens, or even my 20's and 30's.

Ayyup.....


Another fugue.   




George

[xvimbi]

You may want to check out this thread:

https://lists2.wu-wien.ac.at/pipermail/earlym-l/2005-February/thread.html

Bach's tuning is discussed in quite some detail. The threads are continued in

https://lists2.wu-wien.ac.at/pipermail/earlym-l/2005-March/thread.html#1010

Have fun!

[Barbosa-piano]

 This is very interesting... I don't know if there is actually a recording of this, would be very interesting. I am going to see if I can find some books on this around my house. I heard that Bach always tuned his own instrument, which was a 15 minute procedure, and he did not like Silbermann's tuning method. I'll do some research on this...

Mario Barbosa

[bernhard]

Now for the purists. Consider Bach’s works for organ. There is a very strong argument for the idea that even if you use one of the (still surviving) organs that Bach used to play, you still will not be near Bach’s sound because the levels of pollution in the air going through the pipes today is much higher than in Bach’s day and has a sizeable effect on the sound thus produced (I kid you not!).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[gkatele]

a sizeable effect on the sound thus produced (I kid you not!).

Yeah, as if my 55 year old ears could hear that difference!   

[Barbosa-piano]

Now for the purists. Consider Bach’s works for organ. There is a very strong argument for the idea that even if you use one of the (still surviving) organs that Bach used to play, you still will not be near Bach’s sound because the levels of pollution in the air going through the pipes today is much higher than in Bach’s day and has a sizeable effect on the sound thus produced (I kid you not!).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Not only that, but also the dust, other inpurities and impact from the Allied bombings on Leipzig and other wars, have a huge impact, as the acoustics in church, that may have changed due to moving of objects in the church, or the church's own structure... Also, the metal used for the crafting of pipes in organs is a very soft one, and the pipe's own weight can fold or make little distortions on the surface of the pipe, which can be a huge impact also (that happened to several organs in the campus of Baylor University, you could see one of the trumpets outside the main concert organ bent, and other pipes as well). Is it impossible to capture the original sound of Bach? Humm...

Mario Barbosa

[maxy]

This topic seems to confirm that most Bach hardcore lovers are very "stiff"

[pseudopianist]

Each key was tuned just a bit differently from the others, and each key had it's own "character." Even Beethoven used Eb major for his "heroic" works, and Mozart used G minor for tragedy.

Each key DOES have it's own character. Listen to B major and Eb major... they sound totally different and both have a unqie feel

[gkatele]

Each key DOES have it's own character. Listen to B major and Eb major... they sound totally different and both have a unqie feel

Even with equal temperament?

I'd love to do this experiment:

1) Play something in Eb and record it
2) Play the same piece in B major
3) Take the original piece and then, using computer wizardry move it up to B major.

Could you tell the difference?

Just wonderin'


George

[xvimbi]

Even with equal temperament?

I'd love to do this experiment:

1) Play something in Eb and record it
2) Play the same piece in B major
3) Take the original piece and then, using computer wizardry move it up to B major.

Could you tell the difference?

No, one cannot. Unless, of course, one has perfect pitch. But even so, the relationship between the notes is the same. Different moods of different keys can only come about when the relationship between the notes changes, which is the case with a different temperament. So, with perfectly equal temperament, such different moods cannot be generated on the piano. This is of course different for instruments with non-fixed pitches. Ask four different flautists to play a major third, and you'll get four different results! Let them play the intervals in different musical contexts and it's going all over the place, although there are preferences.

PS: I know, I used the word "different" a lot. Well, THINK DIFFERENT!

[gkatele]

No, one cannot. Unless, of course, one has perfect pitch. But even so, the relationship between the notes is the same. Different moods of different keys can only come about when the relationship between the notes changes, which is the case with a different temperament. So, with perfectly equal temperament, such different moods cannot be generated on the piano.

That is exactly the point that I'm trying to make. You nailed it. If the relationship between pitches is the same, you cannot tell the difference.

Now, returning to the original thing that I was looking for:   

Does anyone know of a recording of the Well Tempered Clavier that uses Well Tempered Tuning, rather than equal temperament?


George