So it is the US' fault?

[BoliverAllmon]

Apparently the London Mayor is blaming the West for the London bombings.

https://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/London_Bombings

agree or disagree?

[Aziel]

Hell No...


Aziel Diabolus Speaks the Truth!!

[BoliverAllmon]

that is what I call conviction.

[Torp]

The West does not equal the US.  And my answer would be agree and disagree; it's not that simple.

[BoliverAllmon]

explain

[Torp]

Which part?  Oh all right, I'll answer both.  If you look at the history of "Western" civilization it is not the same thing as the history of the US.  Look here for a brief overview of what is considered Western Civilization.  You're essentially dealing with European history and it's outgrowth, as opposed to Eastern Civilization.

https://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/WestCiv/WestCiv.html

While the US is considered 'part' of Western Civilization it is certainly not synonymous.

Why do I agree and disagree?  I agree that imperialistic foreign policy as practiced by most of the significant world powers over the last 100s, if not 1000s, of years almost always leads to the native population fighting back.  While borders and populations my have become nebulous, the idea is still the same.  People fight back when they feel their way of life is threatened.

I disagree because I don't think you can point to a specific policy and say, "The west put in a specific policy which led to a specific repercussion."  Additionally, I don't think we're responsible for the fanaticism that exists, or has been evident.  That fanaticism is a result of that specific culture.

In a nutshell, I don't think our foreign policy is all that great.  AND, I think that there are fanatics in the world.  I think both are contributing factors.  But I don't think you can unequivocably say that one or the other is the cause.

[Siberian Husky]

torp makes a very sexy point..like always

[BoliverAllmon]

indeed

[Torp]

torp makes a very sexy point..like always

Thanks, I think.

[thalbergmad]

How the London Mayor has survived i don't know.

He seems to be as anti-english as you can get.

[da jake]

Islamic Fundamentalists are at war with Western Civilization for it's perceived intrusion into their Dark Age societies. Don't worry about what reasons these psychotic hypocrites give for their actions - it's all just nonsensical gibberish borne of an intense hatred akin to Fascism.

Keep establishing consensual democracies and supporting democratic reform in the Middle East. Keep killing terrorists.

It's the only way to beat these guys.

[bernhard]

Don't worry about what reasons these psychotic hypocrites give for their actions - it's all just nonsensical gibberish borne of an intense hatred akin to Fascism.

I know Bush and Blair lied to go to war, but should you really be talking about them in those terms?

[da jake]

Instead of spouting old partisan canards like "they lied" you can also try coming up with a more realistic and fair analysis.

I for one think that Bush and Blair didn't really care if the intelligence could at some point be proven innacurate, as they believed the war was already justified in the first place because of Saddam's actions and the then (2003) ineffectual UN sanctions. The whole intelligence thing was a tool for swaying public opinion as hardly anyone can understand the need to depose Saddam on the basis of ideology.

Do I think they intentionally deceived? No. Were they being pragmatic? Of course.

[Torp]

The whole intelligence thing was a tool for swaying public opinion as hardly anyone can understand the need to depose Saddam on the basis of ideology.

Deposing a leader of another country just because you don't agree with their ideology.  Now that sounds democratic.

[da jake]

He he hyuk. Worked for Churchill.

Too bad Bush and Blair couldn't have had the restraint and ever-patient negotiating skills of model-for-UN policy Neville Chamberlain.

[Torp]

He he hyuk. Worked for Churchill.

Thus lending additional credibility to the idea that the problems with Islamic radicals are caused by the foreign policy decisions of the west.

btw, using the idea that you should depose a leader by any means necessary because you don't agree with their ideology is exactly what the so-called radicals often do.

It's vicious circle that never ends, and no one wins.

[da jake]

First off, let's agree on one thing. Democracy is simply better than its alternatives. History has proven this.

Horrible forms of government

Nazism/Fascism
Communism
Japanese Militarism

How were these beaten? Military force. Look at Japan and Germany today. If I told your grampa in 1942 that those two countries would be rich, democratic societies, he'd have laughed in my face. I suspect the same is true of Iraq, Iran, and North Korea.

Anyways, the Islamic fascism ideology is no different than Nazism etc, and it can be beaten the same ways.

Check this article out:

https://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson071605.html

[Torp]

First off, let's agree on one thing. Democracy is simply better than its alternatives. History has proven this.

I happen to prefer democracy as a form of government over other types, but I cannot "agree" with that it is better because every form of government has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Horrible forms of government

Nazism/Fascism
Communism
Japanese Militarism

How were these beaten? Military force.

I would argue first, that Nazism and Fascism are not the same thing.  However, regardless, the two concepts are certainly not beaten nor dead.

Anyways, the Islamic fascism ideology is no different than Nazism etc, and it can be beaten the same ways.

Islamic radicals have nothing to do with fascism.  And, I would argue that a military solution to Islam was already tried.  It failed.  It was called the crusades.  Unless of course you're advocating using nuclear bombs against the Middle East as we used against Japan.

While Japaneses militarism may be gone, the concept certainly isn't.

Check this article out:

https://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson071605.html

Can't stop laughing.

[Skeptopotamus]

I strongly disagree.  Obviously these terrorist organizations have absolutely no plan on stopping these attacks; in fact I think the fact the US responded so forcefully may have even prevented possible attacks; if the terrorists thought that nothing would happen to them, as opposed to what the US did, we might have dealt with alot more attacks than we have.

[Nightscape]

Islamic Fundamentalists are at war with Western Civilization for it's perceived intrusion into their Dark Age societies. Don't worry about what reasons these psychotic hypocrites give for their actions - it's all just nonsensical gibberish borne of an intense hatred akin to Fascism.

Keep establishing consensual democracies and supporting democratic reform in the Middle East. Keep killing terrorists.

It's the only way to beat these guys.

I'm confused.  Are you being sarcastic or serious?

[da jake]

Torp: for all intents and purposes, "Nazism" and "Fascism" in the traditional sense are done like dinner. You can't kill an ideology - you can render it irrelevant though.

Can't stop laughin

Did you read the whole article/more than a sentence or two? I read magazines such as The New Republic and Foreign Affairs, which provide viewpoints that sometimes conflict with my own. I think that if more people took time to understand the conflicting sides' arguments, it would give them a broader understanding of politics, history, and even themselves.

PS: I'm completely serious. I actually think about the issues instead of spewing knee-jerk partisan rhetoric. So go ahead and disagree with my opinion, but know that it's my own and accept that I at least present an intelligent argument.

[i_m_robot]

Deposing a leader of another country just because you don't agree with their ideology.  Now that sounds democratic.

and what if the leader's ideology happens to lead to genocide and this so called leader was responsible for more of its own peoples death than intruders

should a person like this be allowed to keep doing what he does

especially when what he does includes the creation or use of biological weaponry

 

[Torp]

Torp: for all intents and purposes, "Nazism" and "Fascism" in the traditional sense are done like dinner. You can't kill an ideology - you can render it irrelevant though.

Since we're expressing opinions here, I don't think that Nazism and Fascism have been rendered irrelevant.

Did you read the whole article/more than a sentence or two?

Yes, I read the whole thing.

I read magazines such as The New Republic and Foreign Affairs, which provide viewpoints that sometimes conflict with my own. I think that if more people took time to understand the conflicting sides' arguments, it would give them a broader understanding of politics, history, and even themselves.

I too read magazines such as these.  I also seek out other information sources that I can read in the original language so I can make the translations myself.  For me, this happens to be information sources in Spanish.  I personally believe it would help the US immensely if the average citizen obtained more information about what events were happening in other parts of the world without having these events filtered by our own media.  Note, I did not say censored, just filtered.  We all do this anyway, which is why I think you and I are in agreement about how to approach issues, through exposure to conflicting points of view.

PS: I'm completely serious. I actually think about the issues instead of spewing knee-jerk partisan rhetoric.

I know you're serious, and I've taken you that way.  I, too, think about these issues.  The fact that our life experiences have led us to different conclusions doesn't mean either one of us is spewing partisan rhetoric.  Though, the article you led me to, in my opinion, is extremely partisan, left-bashing rhetoric.  Had you pointed me to a left-wing article that treated the right the same way I would have had the same response.  I'm not laughing because I think the underlying information is funny, I'm laughing because I find it humorous that that type of writing finds support.  When an article is so obviously slanted one way or the other it loses too much of its credibility for me to take it seriously.  It borders on propoganda and fanaticism.  I see it regularly from both sides of the fence.

So go ahead and disagree with my opinion, but know that it's my own and accept that I at least present an intelligent argument.

As I've said, we very well may disagree.  To me, there is nothing wrong with disagreement over ideologies.  The shortcomings of the world as I see it today are the lack of acceptance of differing ideologies.  The world, to me, is not black and white, cut and dried, either/or.  Intelligent dialogue and discussion is key if we're to understand and embrace our differences.  Maybe I'm a dreamer but I think the key to world peace is not erradicating those that hold differing beliefs, but rather, learning to see the world through their eyes and their belief systems.

I'm starting to ramble now, but I get frustrated with a world that has reached the point where the only solution we can think of to our problems is to kill those we disagree with.

[i_m_robot]

I'm starting to ramble now, but I get frustrated with a world that has reached the point where the only solution we can think of to our problems is to kill those we disagree with.

tis unfortunate

but self would rather hear about a dictator dying than more of his own people

[BoliverAllmon]

tis unfortunate

but self would rather hear about a dictator dying than more of his own people

true. Sometimes violence must be met with force.

[Torp]

tis unfortunate

but self would rather hear about a dictator dying than more of his own people

Funny, seems to me the dictator is alive and more of 'our own' people are dying every day.

true. Sometimes violence must be met with force.

Which leads to more violence.  The circle never ends.

[BoliverAllmon]

Funny, seems to me the dictator is alive and more of 'our own' people are dying every day.

Which leads to more violence.  The circle never ends.

GROW SOME BALLS MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it sucks that our people are dying, but sometimes it is necessary. America has lost its stomach for war. if you think this war sucks remember WWII Russia lost 20 million people.

[Torp]

GROW SOME BALLS MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have some thank you.

Not sure, however, what that has to do with the current conversation.

Amazing how this has degenerated into insults.  I guess that proves my point.

[BoliverAllmon]

I am saying quit crying like a baby. Just because the enemy fights back and we lose some good men, that doesn't mean we give up.

[c18cont]

BE ASSURED,

This American never had any support to give for a war of conquest and destruction, when it was not a required response to the attempt to put terrorism away....It remains, it was and is illegal by international standards and law. It has nothing to do with testicular considerations...

John Cont

[Torp]

I am saying quit crying like a baby.

The depth of your analysis is mind boggling.  So, now I'm a eunich AND I cry like a baby.  I assume next you'll throw insults at my mother?  Or is there some other defect of mine that somehow is pertinent to the topic of this thread?

[Nightscape]

GROW SOME BALLS MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it sucks that our people are dying, but sometimes it is necessary. America has lost its stomach for war. if you think this war sucks remember WWII Russia lost 20 million people.

All wars suck - even the tiniest ones.  Just because Russia lost millions during a different war doesn't mean we should feel better or happy about our own situation.

What I don't understand is that today we have an excellent oppurtunity to end war (at least for a long long time.)  In the past, this would have been impossible due to rampaging dictators (like Napolean and Hitler) and a lack of communication between countries.

But today, the only "rampaging" country invading other ones is our own country, the U.S.  No other country in the world has the strength or resources necessary to become the next Nazi Germany or WWII Japan... so why doesn't the U.S., supposedly a country of peace, take advantage of this incredible opportunity in history!!!

We all know from history that War doesn't stop violence and hatred from reoccuring.  With War, you can win the battle perhaps, but you can never win the War (ironic, isn't it?).  War was necessary in the past, due to the previously mentioned situations.  But war is not necessary right now.  A better alternative today is Diplomacy.  In the past, often diplomacy was impossible and only possible after massive bloodshed on both sides.  Today Diplomacy is still very difficult to do - perhaps even harder than War.   But we now have an opportunity in history to use diplomacy as a tool to end differences without the prerequisite bloodshed.

Let us not forget too, that the cost of our current wars (in both lives and money) have far exceeded any damage that was originally done to us by terrorists.

[BoliverAllmon]

maybe out cost what was originally done, but do you think the attacks would never happen again?

[i_m_robot]

The depth of your analysis is mind boggling.  So, now I'm a eunich AND I cry like a baby.  I assume next you'll throw insults at my mother?  Or is there some other defect of mine that somehow is pertinent to the topic of this thread?

you're no different

no better

no worse

your idea of pacifism is understandable

so is the idea to fight

why are people dying?

its simple

the world really doesnt care

do you? do we?

what does preaching on a forum viewed by a privilaged few do to help the world?

what good is accomplished by reading the news and doing research only to formulate an opinion?

this topic has nothing to do with the blaming of the US

it is a showing of egos

and who knows more

is self wrong?

perhaps...perhaps not

too selfish -so caught up in there owns lives they dont realize we're all connected

too childish -stubborn an unyielding

thats why the world can only get worse

[i_m_robot]

Funny, seems to me the dictator is alive and more of 'our own' people are dying every day.

where is the hilarity

[Nightscape]

maybe out cost what was originally done, but do you think the attacks would never happen again?

I don't think we needed to attack other countries to prevent attacks on ourselves.  Look at what happened in Afganistan - the terrorist organization "Al Queda" simply fled to other countries.  I think we attacked these countries to make ourselves feel better - like we were getting vengeance.  What boggles me most is that the strongest voices calling for war were not necessarily the ones who were directly affected by the attacks - indeed, many of the victims found it in thier hearts to forgive (but never forget) what happened.  But I think we can all agree we should never let those kinds of things happen again if possible.

A better way to prevent attacks is to up our own defense and security here in our own country - which thankfully we have done in the last few years. 

[i_m_robot]

I don't think we needed to attack other countries to prevent attacks on ourselves.  Look at what happened in Afganistan - the terrorist organization "Al Queda" simply fled to other countries.  I think we attacked these countries to make ourselves feel better - like we were getting vengeance.  What boggles me most is that the strongest voices calling for war were not necessarily the ones who were directly affected by the attacks - indeed, many of the victims found it in thier hearts to forgive (but never forget) what happened.  But I think we can all agree we should never let those kinds of things happen again if possible.

A better way to prevent attacks is to up our own defense and security here in our own country - which thankfully we have done in the last few years. 

were it not for the mass media coverage and the presidents incompetence

the terrorist could have been eliminated easily

especially with todays technology

kind of makes you wonder if they really wanted to

but maybe self is just being a little presumptuous?

[Nightscape]

It's not about eliminating people we don't like - what's more important is eliminating the harmful ideologies about one another.

[i_m_robot]

It's not about eliminating people we don't like - what's more important is eliminating the harmful ideologies about one another.

people are too complex to ever allow for something to happen

how do you say one thing to one person without offending the other

the other person can step back to a certain extent

but when it hit too close to home sometimes the reaction can be unpredictable

[bernhard]

I am saying quit crying like a baby. Just because the enemy fights back and we lose some good men, that doesn't mean we give up.

So, are you going to enlist in the army then? I hear they are in need of people right now. 

[i_m_robot]

So, are you going to enlist in the army then? I hear they are in need of people right now. 

there are those who fight

and there are those who inspire those who fight

[BoliverAllmon]

So, are you going to enlist in the army then? I hear they are in need of people right now. 

I would, but I am physical encapable. I had hernia surgery in the past and the doc screwed it up. He put the mesh in incorrectly and now it causes pain when I have to walk for any kind of distance.

[BoliverAllmon]

oh and I am proud to say that I have several family members that are enlisted.

[thracozaag]

Apparently the London Mayor is blaming the West for the London bombings.

https://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/London_Bombings

agree or disagree?

  Sad that Britain has come to this; he should mix in a history lesson or two.

koji

[BoliverAllmon]

agree

[i_m_robot]

the only ones to blame are the ones who pull the trigger

it was only a matter of time before the blaming would happen

in fact self thought it would happen sooner

[Torp]

where is the hilarity

The hilarity is in the quote below which was used as your justification for the war. 

but self would rather hear about a dictator dying than more of his own people

Because, I'm sure you've noticed by now, the dictator is not dead AND more of HIS own and OUR own (if you care to make the distinction) are dying.

[Torp]

I have often wondered what the difference between the following two statements is:

They are evil and God is on our side.
They are infidels and Allah is on our side.


From a personal point of view, I prefer to not be on any side that condones the killing of innocents no matter how the words are couched.  Gandhi, someone I admire very much, lived a long life and changed world events for the better, without any blood on his hands. After all, maybe that's the point; it's not how or when we die, but what we do to each other while we're alive.

[i_m_robot]

Because, I'm sure you've noticed by now, the dictator is not dead AND more of HIS own and OUR own (if you care to make the distinction) are dying.

yes but stalin, lenon, and hitler are

but self would rather hear about a dictator dying than more of his own people

Gandhi, someone I admire very much, lived a long life and changed world events for the better, without any blood on his hands

how much has the world really changed

men still starve, murder, rape, and fight useless wars

as for those two statements

there are no differences

they are ignorance in the same

[c18cont]

Thanks to:

Torp, for the last post ! My support for your statement...

John