So it is the US' fault?

[thracozaag]

I have often wondered what the difference between the following two statements is:

They are evil and God is on our side.
They are infidels and Allah is on our side.

  I'm frankly shocked and appalled that you can't see the difference.

koji

[BoliverAllmon]

  I'm frankly shocked and appalled that you can't see the difference.

koji

I agree. the difference is huge.

[c18cont]

O.K....,

I know better than to start on this....BUT,

Do some research on Islam and Allah and Moses, Abraham and descendants...And on the flight to Medina and the Quram,To see that it is the SAME God, different name..and ...Just as in the Jewish nation, There is no acceptance of the man called Jesus,as savior....or The Christ..

But the new Christian doesn't recognize the sources of the bible, not even for many, the so called King James, sticking to the "Bible in Modern English",  and others, not knowing the original and early Aramaic, Latin, Cyrillic, Greek..etc..etc, or even that they exist, with the inability to formulate English words to take the place of the original un-translatable words and phraseology.

And...we know that In general, Christian belief doesn't see the simularity, instead noting the difference, which of course means the misunderstandings will continue in Christianity, even as they do in Islam, (as for example, the teachings of the madrassas in general, and the benevolent and peaceful imams who exist throughout the world)...so where will it all end...in a new Crusade?

John

[thracozaag]

O.K....,

I know better than to start on this....BUT,

Do some research on Islam and Allah and Moses, Abraham and descendants...And on the flight to Medina and the Quram,To see that it is the SAME God, different name..and ...Just as in the Jewish nation, There is no acceptance of the man called Jesus,as savior....or The Christ..

But the new Christian doesn't recognize the sources of the bible, not even for many, the so called King James, sticking to the "Bible in Modern English",  and others, not knowing the original and early Aramaic, Latin, Cyrillic, Greek..etc..etc, or even that they exist, with the inability to formulate English words to take the place of the original un-translatable words and phraseology.

And...we know that In general, Christian belief doesn't see the simularity, instead noting the difference, which of course means the misunderstandings will continue in Christianity, even as they do in Islam, (as for example, the teachings of the madrassas in general, and the benevolent and peaceful imams who exist throughout the world)...so where will it all end...in a new Crusade?

John

  Please argue these semantics with the Islamo-fascists; I'm sure you'll engage in some fascinating discourse with them.

koji

[c18cont]

Hi Koji,

I find your reply counter-productive, and a bit agressive, as I didn't suggest any ideaology, but suggest it is a PART of the BELIEFS that run the issues we are at present facing..We.. would do well to consider the possible ramifications I believe.

It is not me debating anything; I simply state well known areas of concern for any compassionate person.

After all, it is the people of Islam that we face, and an UNDERSTANDING of their system of belief and history would be an important area of concern for the ADMINISTRATION...surely such and understanding is beneficial in either war..OR peace.

John

[i_m_robot]

it is not actually the people of islam we face

but the ones who pervert it for their own means

[thracozaag]

it is not actually the people of islam we face

but the ones who pervert it for their own means

 
  Exactly; which is why it should be handled internally BY the Muslim community, which I'm afraid isn't happening yet.

koji

[BoliverAllmon]

I don't see how the Muslim community could fix this. THey are way out powered. The terrorists have more money, more guns, more everything needed to wage than these little countries. That is why I feel it is ok for larger more powerful countries to come in and assist.

boliver

[thracozaag]

Hi Koji,

I find your reply counter-productive, and a bit agressive, as I didn't suggest any ideaology, but suggest it is a PART of the BELIEFS that run the issues we are at present facing..We.. would do well to consider the possible ramifications I believe.

It is not me debating anything; I simply state well known areas of concern for any compassionate person.

After all, it is the people of Islam that we face, and an UNDERSTANDING of their system of belief and history would be an important area of concern for the ADMINISTRATION...surely such and understanding is beneficial in either war..OR peace.

John

  It's clearly evident to me that the Islamo-fascists have hijacked  the main-stream Muslims of their religion, and wish to convert the entire Western world to the 10th century by any means necessary.  You try opening dialogue with people like that.  

koji

[BoliverAllmon]

I can attest that it doesn't work. One of there first questions they will ask is if you are a Muslim. If you say no, the communication lines are severed and now you must die.

boliver

[c18cont]

Sorry,

I simply do not believe it is that bad of a situation; After all, they cling to life just as we would do in the situation, and as we in fact DO, in the threat in London at present, and did so in the aftermath of 9/11...

The suggestion that we don't NEED to understand the original intent of Islam doesn't mean that we should accept the misguided use given it by the killers and destroyers....It is through understanding, that we can better see the twisting done by some groups, and prepare a better defense.

In addition, there must in fact, be an area of dialog that could be brought into use if the right people are approached and if honest and compassionate attempts are made on both sides, to build on humanity...for one sure issue is present always...we are all human, with similiar drives and emotions...

John

[i_m_robot]

if

but we all know it aint gonna happen

but then again

maybe they will surprise self

[i_m_robot]

also

who are the right people and who will actually listen to them

its kind of like with juhovas witnesses

they step to your door already knowing that they are not welcome

and are rarely successful

[BoliverAllmon]

also

who are the right people and who will actually listen to them

its kind of like with juhovas witnesses

they step to your door already knowing that they are not welcome

and are rarely successful

But the jehovah witnesses don't care. They will continue to knock. These muslims are the same way, they know you don' t agree and therefore will instill terror tactics to force their views.

[i_m_robot]

was talking about us trying to talk to the extremist

they wont hear it and really dont care

heheheheheh

it J witnesses ever stared using terrorist tactics

a lot of white collars would be in for some trouble

[c18cont]

  ,

Lets hope for less terrorism in the world somehow...and I still believe dialog could be possible and of use....Mankind has always tried to talk together, and was sucessful far more times than a failure..seems to me...

John

[i_m_robot]

no

mankind has always bashed the heads of those who would not change their minds

and a few who would

war has brought about everything we have in this world

even america

think of the countless native americans slaughtered

the gruesome battles between the english and french

the crusades

even further back the battles are more bloody more cruel and less mercy is shown

all talk does it boost trade and economies

and further the class difference

what did diplomacy get hundreds of thousand of rwandan

or million of slaves and jews

people say the world is going to hell

but self believes this is how its always been

just now, with all the media, its impossible to be sheltered from it

[c18cont]

I truly dark and dismal view, i think.

While on the level of nation to nation, it seems cooperation is a rare occurence overall, I really believe that cooperation, even between highly diverse entitys has been the norm.

In thinking of the large gains in reason and in general thought process, it would only be a hopeful comment that we could be as said..."can't we all just get along..."? There is little to suggest we are not able to reach a lofty goal...it is in fact a necessity if we are going to continue as a race and species....

After all, Mr. Bush wants to go to Mars, and that will, (even though it is not suggested yet officially, very often...), require an international effort, likely involving a large MAJORITY of the worlds' nations, even the poorer nations....It is simply too great a challenge for even the United States to achieve alone...It is truly not possible, unless we learn to cooperate and to even love one another...(Maybe that sounds "sappy" to some, but I believe it is badly needed....)

John

[i_m_robot]

grim

dark

abhorrable

and unfortunately true

self can see you are an idealist

self is one also

but you cannot ignore the truth if you want to bring about change

you have to truly understand and accept it

accepting it doesnt mean giving up however

[prometheus]

Why send heavy bags of useless water to mars?

[BoliverAllmon]

Why send heavy bags of useless water to mars?

HUH?

[i_m_robot]

perhaps they will send people as well

or test how the atmosphere, landing and otherthing affect the transport

[prometheus]

I meant people, putting them on mars is really putting fragile useless bags of water on Mars. I forgot to put in the fragile. It's just stupid to send people to Mars at this time in history.

[thracozaag]

Sorry,

I simply do not believe it is that bad of a situation; After all, they cling to life just as we would do in the situation, and as we in fact DO, in the threat in London at present, and did so in the aftermath of 9/11...

The suggestion that we don't NEED to understand the original intent of Islam doesn't mean that we should accept the misguided use given it by the killers and destroyers....It is through understanding, that we can better see the twisting done by some groups, and prepare a better defense.

In addition, there must in fact, be an area of dialog that could be brought into use if the right people are approached and if honest and compassionate attempts are made on both sides, to build on humanity...for one sure issue is present always...we are all human, with similiar drives and emotions...

John

  And Hitler just needed "breathing room", right?

koji

[i_m_robot]

just cuz their similar dont mean their wired the same

some people laugh at cruelty

others frown

some feel nothing at all

too complex

et also

a lot of us know the original intent of Islam

its in most world history books

we understand they corrupt their religion

but we dont not understand them personally

they have been so far brainwashed its sad

[dinosaurtales]

 It's clearly evident to me that the Islamo-fascists have hijacked  the main-stream Muslims of their religion, and wish to convert the entire Western world to the 10th century by any means necessary.  You try opening dialogue with people like that.  

koji

I agree.  Let me add some fuel to the fire.  I think the "peaceful" Muslims (the ones I keep hearing about but never see DOING ANYTHING TO STOP THIS STUFF) secretly like it.  By that I mean I don't believe at this point that they are peaceful.  This thing has been labeled a "religious war" and the Muslims are the ones doing it - according to the terrorists.  If the peaceful ones don't get their s**t together and DO SOMETHING proactive to stop the fascist ones, they will find themselves in the midst of a casualty of war scenario and it will be too late for them to escape it.  The whole world is rapidly starting to hate Muslims and the good ones would be best to start figuring that out if they want to survive.

[prometheus]

I have also seen americans call it a war between christianity and islam, and 'the clash of civilizations'.

To me this is strange. But then again, I find all religions bizarre.

[i_m_robot]

just cuz bush aint not an atheist

[c18cont]

I think what bothers me the most here, is so many express ideas that in fact, don't fit with known facts about Islam and the Muslim individual...Too many havn't the background, and I guess you are not interested in taking the time to read up on the subject...

It is simply a matter of reading and study...worth the time if we are going to make decisions...either right or wrong..For or Against.

I don't see any relation to the mention of Hitler, for example, or the suggestion that I am an idealist...; in fact I am really an Internationalist....after American. Nor is there any reason to put the attitude of all Muslim people in the same bag...

We are falling more deeply into a war-like attitude in this country with every passing day...Take a look at new statistics relating to the young of the US and other nations, and the belief we are now headed to WW III....Several companies have done surveys recently, and American young people believe it by well over half....I am sure most of you have seen it on TV and in the papers/internet news...

Do You believe we are headed to WW III ? That may be a better guide of your attitude about human relations than any other...

John Cont

[thracozaag]

  I'm afraid we're already IN WWIII, my friend.

koji

[prometheus]

Calling them Islamo-fascists is stupid. Just because those people are crazy and do bad things doesn't mean they are fascists. Fascism actually has a definition and it isn't 'evil'.

[c18cont]

Well, I don't see that as being possible....(WW III)....Perhaps those who were not there, have no concept of WORLD WAR...,

We are actually friendly with the second and third most powerful nations in a military sense....It is not likely we will lose that support, as the one is like us, and the other is going to be the 21st century number one power...WITH our help....They face the SAME problems with differing ideological principles as we...and we won't be fighting them...It just "isn't in the cards".

Now, if you mean we face misunderstanding...and in fact,  WAE.....If we continue to believe we must destroy those of a different ideology, we DO face war...and make no mistake about it...

John Cont

[thracozaag]

Well, I don't see that as being possible....(WW III)....Perhaps those who were not there, have no concept of WORLD WAR...,

We are actually friendly with the second and third most powerful nations in a military sense....It is not likely we will lose that support, as the one is like us, and the other is going to be the 21st century number one power...WITH our help....They face the SAME problems with differing ideological principles as we...and we won't be fighting them...It just "isn't in the cards".

Now, if you mean we face misunderstanding...and in fact,  WAE.....If we continue to believe we must destroy those of a different ideology, we DO face war...and make no mistake about it...

John Cont

  If 9/11 wasn't a declaration of war, I don't know what is.

koji

[pianonut]

i agree with koji.  that was a statement.  yet, at the same time, i see that arabs are probably descendants of ishmael (who was one of abrahams sons) thus the same blood and once having the same God.

the god they worship now has been changed.  Muhammud is not Yaweh or Jesus Christ.  So, you have a different perspective.  Jesus Christ came to act as a savior.  Muhammud, a prophet, and Yaweh is the hebrew name for the one God of Israel (who, in my understanding was Christ as the Word in the beginning).

for an investigation into the differences in religion brought by Muhammad (introduction of the moon god Al Ilah and various babylonian ideas to religion) you can look up:

www.ldolphin.org/islam.shtml

[prometheus]

So we are at war with a small group of our own teenagers? Those with fucked up ideas?


Muslims worship the God of Abraham; Allah, The Lord, JHWH, the only difference is language and culture.

Mulsims even see Jezus as an important prophet. Mohammed is their main prophet. He was a human. I am not sure if they view him as a messiah.

[pianonut]

there are differences that are added to the Christian religion (700 years after Christ) by Muhammud.  This changed the true faith, just as various other false prophets have over the years.  the fact we dare to call them that is blasphemous to them, just as Jesus Christ is insignificant *a mere prophet and not a saviour to them.

[prometheus]

So God split in two because Muhammed had some new ideas?

[pianonut]

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  man changes things.

[prometheus]

So they worship the same God in a different way. Thank you.

[pianonut]

they once had the same God.  but, God will not be made into man's image or ideas...so when they are added, they become a false god (if the prophet is false, the god is false).  muhammud, imo, is a false prophet.  this is because he added a moon god (babylonian god) to the true God - thus creating his own god. 

this isn't to say that there are arabic people that God is Allah (in the greater sense) to.  God is big enough to carry the sins of everyone.  even sins of misunderstanding, if our hearts are right.  i suppose that when he reveals Himself, we will all be a bit surprised.  i believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ - where the dead will be raised and we will be 'incorruptible.'  for those that didn't understand, they will all be taught the same thing (not different religions - because that is confusion).

Islam in fundamentalist terms is built upon physical doings (5 or 6 pillars) of which you need to attain to have reward.  But, Christ did not say this.  Therefore it is false (making muhammud a false prophet).  if i was brought up in islam, i would probably believe it to be true until proven otherwise.  this is the sad but true facts of man's insistence on creating his own gods with his own ideas.  it hurts the population that follows the false idea.  babylon has long been associated with sin.  Sin!  i wonder if it all sort of goes back to the babylon that nimrod began so long ago.  and the Ur, the land that abraham came out of.  abraham's seed was given a promise (they are probably the industrialized and wealthier nations today that generally follow the bible).  blessings/curses follow the old testaments blessings and curses on israel.  those who bless israel will be blessed ....etc. 
there is nothing we can do to change God's blessing.  even balak asked balaam to put a curse on israel and he could not and ended up blessing them.  the same goes for weapons of mass destruction.  if WWIII happens, or is happening, it probably will be a shock and surprise if Christ returned and came to the Mount of Olives (as He said he would) and caused the armies of the nations to be destroyed (possibly by their own hands and weapons) while he protects and defends His own.

[i_m_robot]

who hasnt created their own god

pretty much everyone has his or her own idea of god

saying that gods kind and loving or spiteful and vengeful god is creating god in your own image

you are no better than they are

stop believing you are

[Siberian Husky]

robot your probably the most politically inclined pregnant cat on this forum..i didnt know machines had it in em..

nice 10/1 by the way

[prometheus]

they once had the same God.  but, God will not be made into man's image or ideas...so when they are added, they become a false god (if the prophet is false, the god is false).  muhammud, imo, is a false prophet.  this is because he added a moon god (babylonian god) to the true God - thus creating his own god. 

Christians added the Holy Spirit and Christ to God. I don't see why their guess is better than other people's guesses. Get beyond yourself. Ooh, wait. You can't do that because you have faith. You don't need to think.

How can you say Muslims and jews created their God and Christians didn't?

And what about all the roman, celtic and germanic things added to christianity? They interfused with the arabic christianity when it arrived in Rome and in Germany and England. Why do you think christmas is celebrated in december? No one knows at what date or in which season Christ was born. Therefore Christianity is a false religion by your definition. Ooh wait, you can ignore your own words because you have faith in God. Our human logic does not apply to the divine. Sure.   

suppose that when he reveals Himself, we will all be a bit surprised.

It would be really funny if Christ returned to earth and he was actually a she. And that all religions have it wrong but they were too fundamentalist to be reasonable.

Islam in fundamentalist terms is built upon physical doings (5 or 6 pillars) of which you need to attain to have reward.

 

I don't see why this makes God split up. Sure this is different from Christianity and Judaism. But will God split himself up?

Or did you take a peek in heaven and saw two empty chairs with the names "Allah" and "JHWH" on them?

But, Christ did not say this.  Therefore it is false (making muhammud a false prophet).

How do you know what Christ said? And how does this make Muhammed false? Didn't God send Gabriel to him? Was it Satan? Or was he insane and did he just have hallicunations. And how do you know for sure?

Maybe Christ misunderstood God. Or maybe Muhammed did, which doesn't make him a false prophet. Maybe God changed his mind. Or maybe God is just playing games with us. Maybe God told both of them to make their own versions of religion, as long as it had a few core principles.

if i was brought up in islam, i would probably believe it to be true until proven otherwise.

Really, you would probably blow yourself up in the metro. I am glad you are a chrisitian.

this is the sad but true facts of man's insistence on creating his own gods with his own ideas.

There are thousands different types of Christianity. There are 77 interpretations of the first paragraph of Genesis I.

abraham's seed was given a promise (they are probably the industrialized and wealthier nations today that generally follow the bible).

Christianity was at its high point during the middle ages. Christianity didn't perform some kind of miracle in Africa either.

if WWIII happens, or is happening, it probably will be a shock and surprise if Christ returned and came to the Mount of Olives (as He said he would) and caused the armies of the nations to be destroyed (possibly by their own hands and weapons) while he protects and defends His own.

Maybe Christ never said he would return and some funny guy made that up?


People that believe in God are mentally insane. It's absurd. You scare the crap out of me.

It's also dangerous. Religion demands fundamentalism. A 'soft' religion that relativates things and that says it might be wrong is useless. People believe because they want something to cling onto. So they want a rock hard religion. The result is that religion will become brutal. Religion can never be tolerant of other ideas. You can never say that Islam is just as good a religion as Christianity because then you have nothing left to cling onto. Religion will always be babaric and intolerant.

Really:
-God is not just one person, but a holy trinity, made up out of three parts: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
-People are all born in sin because Adam and Eve did something wrong.
-So then all people are currupted by evil.
-God sends his son to earth and he is both fully God and fully human, huh
-The Holy Spirit impregnates a virgin girl named Mary. The Son of God, who is both 1/3 of God, the Son of God and a man, grows in her woumb.
-Christ is born and he is the jewish messiah, the heir to the throne of David.
-But instead of fulfilling the prohecy the people nail him to the cross.
-But then that's a good thing because Christ was innocent of any sin. So this way he sacrifices himself so that he can carry the sin of all men.
-Then he rises from the death and dissapears.
-Then we learn he is both human's advocate and judge.
-And later some guy John tells us the son of God will some day return, finish the final battle between good and evil and lead us all into heaven.
-Apperently he is now waiting in heaven and then he will become a small egg cell and then the Holy Spirit will carry him to a new virgin womb.


Really, this is an absurd story. How can anyone believe in this. Why would anyone want to believe in this? How did Adam and Eve eating an apple, one that should have given us the ability to recognise both good and evil, make all humans naturally evil?
And how does Christ redeem or sins when he gets excecuted?
Why do we have to live in evil and sin and wait for Christ? Etc etc.

Really, Christianity is probably the most absurd religion. Judaism is probably the least tolerant. They make Islam look good.

[c18cont]

One more time,

Religion is:

Born of Superstition and nourished by Fear....(That's not to belittle it...what else has killed as many?)

John

[pianonut]

down through history israel - the land that Christ, our Saviour was born, has been made war upon.  there hasn't been a war that israel has started that was not in defence of a very small portion of land as compared to the arabic nations around it.  the land was given to israel by God.  so defending what is rightfully theirs is not terrorism.

terrorism is when a country decides that it wants to be utterly radical or fundamentalist (as you call christians).  they go about killing whomever doesn't believe what they do.  do you see christians doing this today?  no.  they are the ones that GET killed.  by going to different countries (such as africa) and helping the people and also spreading the gospel.

the last of your list of 'really's' is false.  He (God) has no need to create life in Himself.  He is God.  I don't believe God to be a trinity, though, which would be a different view than some other churches.  I believe God explains himself in the Book of revelation.  He says that when the seventh angel sounds "the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ (the Holy Spirit being in them); and He will reign forever and ever.'

The Holy Spirit, seems to take on different forms of expression to us (fire, water, oil) but all is incorporated in our taking on 'the mind of God.'  whoever has the Spirit of God has the mind of God.  they think peacefully and are not full of hatred.  the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsufferring, kindness...  not acts of terror.  i have yet to experience a true christian committing acts of terror.  God wages war for us.  revelation 19:11 speaks of Christ (the ressurrected) as judging and waging war.  from His mouth comes a 'sharp sword, so that with it He may smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 

this may sound crazy to you - but it's a lot better form of government than we have today.  if we had a world government, you can bet it wouldn't be shared.  it would be a selfish sort of hierarchical government.  But, God tells us in His word that He wants to share his government with those who believe Him and keep His word (commandments).  So, all we have to do is believe and obey.  If we don't obey, and seek forgiveness, He is quick to forgive.  But, he says there will come a time when it is too late (probably during the last days) and people will seek for God and not find Him.  Seek Him while He may be found...and it won't be like in Matt. where 1/2 of the 'virgins' were foolish and had no oil (Holy Spirit).  only God can protect us in WWIII!

 

[i_m_robot]

  they go about killing whomever doesn't believe what they do.  do you see christians doing this today?  no.  they are the ones that GET killed. 

ehm...rorthern hireland..ehm

cough cough

 

I believe God explains himself in the Book of revelation.  He says that when the seventh angel sounds "the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ (the Holy Spirit being in them); and He will reign forever and ever.'

book of revelations

written by men wasnt it

The Holy Spirit, seems to take on different forms of expression to us (fire, water, oil) but all is incorporated in our taking on 'the mind of God.'  whoever has the Spirit of God has the mind of God.  they think peacefully and are not full of hatred.  the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsufferring, kindness...  not acts of terror.

you mean like monks

and dont go saying they worship buddha cuz most of them dont 

God wages war for us.  revelation 19:11 speaks of Christ (the ressurrected) as judging and waging war.  from His mouth comes a 'sharp sword, so that with it He may smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

this may sound crazy to you

what do you expect when you quote revelations

but it's a lot better form of government than we have today

if you insist

But, he says there will come a time when it is too late (probably during the last days) and people will seek for God and not find Him

this is pretty much during any mans last day

they look to god only because they are afraid of death

and they fing nothing

only God can protect us in WWIII!

yeah like during the previous world wars

who side was he on again?
--------------------------------------

jk

but seriously

many thing in the bible that pertain to catastophic events can also be applied to everyday life

so maybe revelation isnt as much about the finals day of mankind as it is about the final day of a single man

just self thoughts