John Ogdon, how good was he?

[sevencircles]

I have heard a lot about how good John Ogdon was in the sixties.

Some people say that not one pianist  in the world right now can match Ogdon as a quicklearner of virtuoso pieces.

He had a serious mental breakdown in the  seventies but he is said to have been superhuman before that.

What do you know!

[pseudopianist]

From what I've heard he is a hell of a sightreader. He has the best recording of the Opus Claivifsfsjcumbucketdfj and he has some very excellent Scriabin sonata recordings

[m]

From what I've heard he is a hell of a sightreader.

True, as well as he was a fabulous quicklearner. But it is not what makes the great musician, I guess.
He suffered from manic depression and schizophrenia, and as far as I know, alcoholism.
He was colossal pianist. Try to get his (preferably early) recordings to witness it. His performings from Tchaikowsky Competition of Oundine, Mephisto Valse, Liszt 1st Piano Concerto, are unmatched. Most definitely, Ashkenasy, with whom he shared first price,  wasn't even close, both as a virtuoso or musician.

[musicsdarkangel]

Ogdon... was a GENIUS.

Really.

He is easily in the list of the top virtuosos, sickest technique of all time.

He shared a gold medal with Ashkenazy at the Van Cliburn (i think the Van Cliburn).

Anyway, like Hamelin is doing now, he played so much contemporary music, including Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum, so the repitoire we are used to was a walk in the park for him.

I heard that he was on a plain ride to a concert in the city, and he learned Franck's Symphonic Variations just by mental practice!

I don't know if this is true, but it's pretty disgusting if it is.

[Etude]

He was also a composer, I remember seeing a book in the music library with John Ogdon on the front, it turned out he had written a piano concerto!

[thalbergmad]

He was the best of the Brits.

His recording of the Liszt-Busoni-La Campanella was out of this world.

[ted]

I am not qualified to pass an opinion about his raw abilities. I saw him play the twelve Trancendental Studies in a concert in Auckland in 1967. It was certainly very memorable but resembled a gladiatorial contest between him and the piano. He was a big man, and at the end the sweat was rolling off him, one trouser leg was stuck half-way up his leg and he could only just teeter to the front of the stage to bow.

For what my opinion is worth, I found him better at some things than others. In those pieces requiring breadth of strong, sustained tone - Harmonies du Soir, Chasse Neige, Vision - his sound was magnificent - Chasse Neige, in particular, was a revelation. I did not find him quite as convincing in those which need delicate, crisp or clear playing.

I'm pleased I saw him though - he certainly was special.

[orlandopiano]

Try to get his (preferably early) recordings to witness it.

This is mandatory.  Ogdon fell so far in his later years and the two periods sound like two totally different pianists.  His earlier stuff is terrific. STAY AWAY from the later stuff.

[m]

Ogdon fell so far in his later years and the two periods sound like two totally different pianists.  His earlier stuff is terrific. STAY AWAY from the later stuff.

Tend to disagree here. It is true, in later years he became extremely uneven. I was at his one of the last concerts in Moscow. He played just terrible Chopin four Ballades--often sloppy, non legato, the most weird Chopin you could imagine (reminded Gould's Chopin 3rd Sonata). But still, you could hear it was playing a great artist. Then he played Schumann C Major Fantasy. It was absolutely astounding. You could forgive anything and everything he did before.

Rumours, he could play one night Alkan Concerto, next night Busoni Concerto, and next night four last Beethoven Sonatas (starting with Hammerklavier).

I have old LPs with his Busoni Concerto. It is just titanic performance.

I was told, once he was teaching in US (don't remember the University) and had to go for concerts to UK. Somebody brought him to airport. Three days later people from UK started calling the University wondering where Maestro Ogdon is. They started search. Very soon he was found in the same airport, sitting on a bench and starring into one spot... for three days....

Genious man with such tragic destiny...

[sevencircles]

I did not find him quite as convincing in those which need delicate, crisp or clear playing.

I assume that you mean that he wasn´t very clean and that wrong notes occured, or?

I have heard that he was as most convincing when he played technical and fast works but he seems to have been better playing  the slow parts according to you, or?

I heard that he simply had no limits when it comes to repertoire since he could play for instance Liszt´s hardest pieces at sight even if he never played them before.

I wonder if Hamelin can do that?

[ted]

Hard to describe what I mean. You know how Cziffra sounds in Feux Follets and Mazeppa ? Clean, crisp, well defined. Well, Ogdon didn't play like that. I don't mean he played wrong notes, but rather that his sounds appeared conceived as a whole - he was a master of the big picture and he played with the big picture in mind - sonorous, full-bodied piano shapes.

The distinction isn't simple,  I am certainly no expert and it's a difficult point to express in words. No, he played very few wrong notes, but the way he played the right ones was distinctly his own. It isn't as easily explained as being better at either slow or fast pieces.

How on earth can I explain it ? Perhaps it is analogous to the difference between a photograph, or a superbly realistic painting and an impressionistic painting of deep sentiment. The computerised (in the nicest possible sense) finger men such as Cziffra and so on went for the former and Ogdon went for the latter. 

I know that his Chasse Neige still rings in my ears almost forty years later - and I do not even particularly like the piece, or classical music in general for that matter - not for the technique, but for the sound he drew from the instrument. I don't expect to hear anything like it again in my lifetime.

On the more human side, history presents us with many examples of feted great musical talents who were unhappy inside and could not cope with life. Waller, also a big man, possessed talent of a supremely high order, and yet destroyed himself with drink and nonsense.

It seems to me irrational to assume that somebody, somewhere could not have helped these people back to a state of equilibrium.

[phillip21]

I had the priviledge to be present at his celebrated performance of the Opus Clavicembalisticum in the Queen Elizabeth Hall in London in the early 1980s.  I didn't have the score so cannot vouch for his accuracy, but the performance was an amazing feat of stamina.

[m]

I wonder if Hamelin can do that?

Why would it matter? Who cares how well they sightread, or how long it took them to prepare pieces for performance? The most important is the final result--the music they make. Hamelin is great and Ogdon is Unique.

[ted]

There is a personal, anecdotal consequence to the Ogdon recital I attended. The week after, the music critic in the national daily scathingly dismissed both Ogdon and Liszt in a thoroughly embarrassing tirade wherein the "hollowness" of Liszt was mentioned - you know the sort of thing.

Anyway, twenty-four years later I was driving to work in my Mini up the motorway and some twat rammed me in the rear. This old geezer got out and wanted to argue, insisted on coming around to my house to take pictures of the car so that I wouldn't diddle him in the insurance claim.

He was standing in my lounge next to my piano when the name on the paper suddenly clicked. I said, "Weren't you the bloke did that stupid write-up on John Ogdon ?"

He replied, "Oh well, it doesn't really matter because what nobody realised at the time was that he was completely mad anyway."

Just about sums music critics up, doesn't it !
 

[thracozaag]

  Ogdon was a pianist of immense strength, ideas and courage.  His recording of the Rach 1st sonata and Busoni concerto remain unsurpassed to my ears.  His battle with his mental illness is chronicled in the book, "Virtuoso" (I think it also may have been made into a movie).  I would highly recommend getting the Thaikovsky Competition CD with Ashkenazy.  Ogdon does a tremendous Liszt 1st Concerto, Mephisto Waltz, and Islamey on there.

koji

[pita bread]

His recording of the Dutilleux Sonata - mmm he's got soul.

[stevie]

his alkan coerto however is a bit of a mess compared to hamelin, his technique was phenomenal, but he didnt have the clarity and 'perfection' of hamelin.

and yes, there was a movie made about him shortly before he died, starring, of all people - DOCTOR OCTOPUS, hilarious, but true.

[jerry xie]

I have heard a lot about how good John Ogdon was in the sixties.

Some people say that not one pianist  in the world right now can match Ogdon as a quicklearner of virtuoso pieces.

He had a serious mental breakdown in the  seventies but he is said to have been superhuman before that.

What do you know!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i like his playing of busoni!!!

[arensky]

The public library in the town I went to high school in had a lot of his records, including  the Rachmaninov Sonatas and the Busoni Concerto. He was an outstanding pianist.

In my senior year of high school I traveled to Indiana University to audition; my auditioners were Marion Hall(?), Menachem Pressler and John Ogdon !

I probably came off like a stupid kid (which I probably was) becuse I started introducing myyself, shaking their hands and congratulating Pressler and Ogdon on their recordings which I enjoyed(poor Marion Hall, I hope I didn't hurt her feelings ) Ogdon was fat, unshaven, disheveled and clearly disturbed somehow; I started my program with the Chopin 2sd Scherzo and Hall stopped me after the second Emajor flourish, before it goes to D diminished. And Ogdon starts up, "no, let him go on!" and getting all weird and gesticulating; Hall pointed to her watch and Pressler said "we have to stay on schedule" or something like that, whereupon Ogdon started muttering about "d--n rules, always d--n rules, never music", and blinking and staring angrily at the floor. I looked at Pressler and asked what they would like to hear; he said they would like to hear the Beethoven, and then they both watched Ogdon for a moment, and then Ogdon looked up at me, somewhat calmer. I then played the 1st movement of  Sonata in e minor op.90. Then Pressler asked Ogdon what he would like to hear from my program, and handed him the list. He simply said "Bach" and I played my WTC. After his "outburst" he sat leaning back in his chair with his eyes closed, either listening or very far away; After the Bach Hall and Pressler shook my hand and told be I would be notified, you know the usual; Ogdon remained sitting with his eyes closed, and when I said "Goodbye Mr. Ogdon it was an honor to play for you" or whatever I said(I was impressed by the quality of my audition panel, let me tell you!), he looked up suddenly and smiled and said "Yes"!! And then leaned right back and closed his eyes, going back to wherever he had been...
I could tell this was someone who was not, well, "normal" (whatever that might be). He was definitely depressed, and not operating on the same wavelength as the rest of us.  I was accepted to IU, but chose to attend another school .

Hope y'all find this interesting. How good was John Ogdon? Well I think it's obvious he was at the highest level of piano playing! Those Rachmaninov Sonatas, wow... 

[Waldszenen]

He's amazing, and he's made the fastest (and most irritating) recording ever of Liszt's Gnomenreigen.

[m]

his alkan coerto however is a bit of a mess compared to hamelin, his technique was phenomenal, but he didnt have the clarity and 'perfection' of hamelin.

That's because Ogdon always was much more interested in emotional content of music and its passion. I am under impression that Hamelin for some reason chooses not to be emotionally envolved in what he is doing, but rather stay very calculative and under complete control. This way it is quite easy to have this clarity, esp. considering his phenomenal pianistic and intellectual abilitites. But whenever finally he gets excited, very often he looses it and his legendary perfection... let's say suffers.

[sevencircles]

Remember that Hamelin can edit his recordings in a way that Ogdon couldn´t due to the lack of technology available at the time!

[stevie]

That's because Ogdon always was much more interested in emotional content of music and its passion. I am under impression that Hamelin for some reason chooses not to be emotionally envolved in what he is doing, but rather stay very calculative and under complete control. This way it is quite easy to have this clarity, esp. considering his phenomenal pianistic and intellectual abilitites. But whenever finally he gets excited, very often he looses it and his legendary perfection... let's say suffers.

true to an extent...i really need to hear more ogdon.

i have a live recording of hamelin's alkan concerto and its ever MORE stunning than his studio recording.
even if ogdon's recording was unedited, and could be considered a live recording, its still messier and slower than hamelin's.

and the live video of hamelin playing it is incredibly emotional in the finale especially, you can tell hamelin is really into it and putting everything into his performance.

[theodopolis]

Ogdon's Alkan Concerto is still my no.1 recording of the work despite having been introduced to the work with Hamelin's version.

I think many people make the sweeping dismissal of his Allegro alla barbaresca based solely on the smudged second chord. Not least the sleeve-note writer for John Ogdon's Great Pianists Edition - I couldn't believe the pettiness of summing up the entire performance with this smudge as the central argument.

Hamelin's recordings have the added element of the rather jangly piano tone he seems to choose (perhaps Hyperion's engineers too) which adds an undeniable excitement to the fireworks that this piece possesses. I also think that Hamelin's ending is a bit showboat-ish, but then again one could arguably sum up the entire final movement that way.

On another note, has anyone come across the television film of VIRTUOSO with Alfred Molina as John Ogdon (Though I think Ogdon does the playing and hand shots)
Any other footage of John Ogdon performances would be fascinating too.

Thanks
Theodopolis

[minor9th]

He seemed to excel in dense, contrapuntal textures. Just listen to Busoni's Fantasia and the Bach-Busoni transcriptions...transcendent. Even if his Sorabji is not note-perfect, the spirit and power cannot be denied. I also like his Rachmaninov Etudes Tableaux. I have a live recording on which he plays some Alkan and Liszt's solo Totentanz--wildly virtuosic. In fact, the piano tuner had to retune the piano after the Alkan Symphony! (It's a live radio broadcast.) Next on my reading list is "Virtuoso"--I managed to obtain a copy for a decent price.

[mephisto]

He seemed to excel in dense, contrapuntal textures. Just listen to Busoni's Fantasia and the Bach-Busoni transcriptions...transcendent. Even if his Sorabji is not note-perfect, the spirit and power cannot be denied. I also like his Rachmaninov Etudes Tableaux. I have a live recording on which he plays Alkan and Lizts's solo Totentanz--wildly virtuosic. In fact, the piano tuner had to retune the piano after the Alkan Symphony! (It's a live radio broadcast.) Next on my reading list is "Virtuoso"--I managed to obtain a copy for a decent price.

OH MY! What do I have to do to get my hands on that one?(i.e make you give it to me!)

[jre58591]

OH MY! What do I have to do to get my hands on that one?(i.e make you give it to me!)

se-con-ded!

[steinwaymodeld]

I have heard a lot about how good John Ogdon was in the sixties.

Some people say that not one pianist  in the world right now can match Ogdon as a quicklearner of virtuoso pieces.

He had a serious mental breakdown in the  seventies but he is said to have been superhuman before that.

What do you know!

Regarding Ogdon, if u can get the documentary on his life by BBC (with his own awesome narration)
There is a part that his conductor friend stated
just the night before the concert of a Brahms 2nd, a pianist dropped out because of sickness, and they asked Ogdon to filled in with the assumption that he must have learnt the  piece before.
So Ogdon went to the concert, gave the performance brilliantly (with a page turner)
Then later-on the page-turner were there when the conductor and the soloist had a conversation, and the page-turner said 'mr. Ogdon, your playing was simply amazing, and I wanted to apologize for not turning the page fast enough at one point. Luckily you must have learnt this piece before because u played that part even before I had turned the page."
And Ogdon simply replied 'O no no, i never seen the score before, I just heard the recording of this work once or twice.'

This was told back by the conductor and Ogdon admit to that story.

brahms 2nd... WOW.....

I think that should answer your question for him being one of the freakishly talented quick-learner and sight-reader. (He sight-read the Brahms 2nd right there on stage, and he sight-read the Scriabin 4th sonata at the recording session.)

[minor9th]

se-con-ded!

Which--the recording or the book? 

[jre58591]

Which--the recording or the book? 

the live recording, of course.

[viking]

Slightly off topic, but how much do you guys think a sealed LP of his Piano Concerto would be worth?

[desordre]

 Dear fellows:
 The BBC radio 3 had broadcast three programs about him this week. The links will be available only for seven days each, so enjoy your weekend:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio3_aod.shtml?radio3/performanceon3_mon
https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio3_aod.shtml?radio3/performanceon3_tue
https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio3_aod.shtml?radio3/performanceon3_wed
 
 It's just amazing. Best!

[minor9th]

the live recording, of course.

It's currently on a cassette--if I can get it copied onto a CD I'll let you know.

[andrewg]

If my memory still serves during the 1962 Tchaikovsky competition that he shared 1st prize with Ashkenazy (A was forced to join the competition by the government) he also gave 3 full length piano recitals in addition to his competition pressure. This guy is a genius by all standards. In this same competition American Susan Starr shared 2nd prize with Chinese pianist Yin Cheng-Zhong.

[jre58591]

It's currently on a cassette--if I can get it copied onto a CD I'll let you know.

thanks, id appreciate it and can give you something in return.

[tompilk]

my music teacher at my school calls him "elbows"... explains itself really...
Anyone know how to capture audio from the stream?
Thanks,
Tom

[bench warmer]

my music teacher at my school calls him "elbows"... explains itself really...
Anyone know how to capture audio from the stream?
Thanks,
Tom

Audacity will record a Stream simultaneously with your computer playing the Stream. Set it for Stereo Mix instead of Mic. Check your Levels first w/a test run.

[minor9th]

my music teacher at my school calls him "elbows"... explains itself really...
Anyone know how to capture audio from the stream?
Thanks,
Tom

Here are some software programs that will enable you to record any audio stream:

https://www.all-streaming-media.com/record-audio-stream/

I just tried Windows' built-in audio recorder--it sounds terrible!

[minor9th]

I'm now reading Virtuoso, Ogdon's biography written by his wife, Brenda Lucas. Wow, what an incredibly sad story. I knew he had a breakdown but had no idea it was so serious. He underwent shock therapy, attempted suicide...how awful.

The book does bring up a couple of intriguing concerts that I hope were recorded and could obtain a copy: his Wigmore Hall debut (with a monstrous program) and Gerard Schurmann's Piano Concerto. If anyone can help, please PM me. I might have something of interest...

[thorn]

the only thing ive ever heard of his is the Messiaen Vingt Regards, and they are amazing performances of the pieces.

im definately going to be looking out for some of the his recordings.

[jre58591]

the only thing ive ever heard of his is the Messiaen Vingt Regards, and they are amazing performances of the pieces.

im definately going to be looking out for some of the his recordings.

what?? he did the messiaen regards?? wow, i must hear this. any chance of an upload?

[thalbergmad]

I'm now reading Virtuoso, Ogdon's biography written by his wife, Brenda Lucas. Wow, what an incredibly sad story. I knew he had a breakdown but had no idea it was so serious. He underwent shock therapy, attempted suicide...how awful.

The book does bring up a couple of intriguing concerts that I hope were recorded and could obtain a copy: his Wigmore Hall debut (with a monstrous program) and Gerard Schurmann's Piano Concerto. If anyone can help, please PM me. I might have something of interest...

That is a great book and i have read in many times.

I was delighted that a recent enquiry for the score to John's piano concerto was answered by Brenda herself.

What a lovely lady.

Thal

[richard black]

I knew John Ogdon very well in the last 3 or so years of his life. I turned pages for him at most of his Altarus recording sessions (Sorabji etc.) and heard him in concert and at home. I also have most of his LPs. He never had Hamelin's technical finesse but he had a combination of facility at the keyboard and 'fire in the belly' the like of which I've never encountered, even in descriptions of pianists long dead, with the exception perhaps of Liszt. Yes, John could sightread the rest of the world right off the piano, I've seen him do it. I've also seen him play Islamey 5 times through without getting up from the piano - full-on performances all of them.

Note for anyone not familiar with his recordings: yes, technical and musical standard have their momentary lapses from about 1972 on but all are worth investigating. He wasn't a well man, physically or mentally (by the way, I think alcoholism was one thing he didn't suffer - the drugs he was on for much of his life kept him on the wagon), but there are some blinding flashes of revelation in almost everything he did.

So in answer to the original question: he was very, very good and like all true artists he was unique.

[mephisto]

Nice to hear from someone who has actually known Ogdon. I am sure he was a very special person.

[fyrexia]

i only have a recording of him playing the rachmaninoff suite no.1

[ahinton]

Nice to hear from someone whon has actually known Ogdon. I am sure he was a very special person.

He was indeed. I knew and worked with him at the same time as Richard did - on the same project, in fact. There are careless page turners, indifferent page turners, good page turners and excellent page turners - and there is Richard, whose skill in that department was and is as peerless as it was and is immensely patient (long stretches of Opus Clavicembalisticum for hours on end requires considerable concentrative stamina from the page turner, apart from anything else). Richard, who is himself a pianist, was also acting as technical assistant on this recording. He also turned pages and recorded my Sequentia Claviensis when Jonathan Powell premičred it a few months ago.

I can honestly say that working with John on that historic occasion was one of the most remarkable experiences it has ever been my privilege to have.

Best,

Alistair

[richard black]

After Alistair's kind little appreciation of my page-turning skills, I feel I ought perhaps to say that my rates are very reasonable 

He and I, one day, will write a book of John Ogdon reminiscences. How about it, AH?

[thalbergmad]

I for one would buy it.

Thal

[ahinton]

After Alistair's kind little appreciation of my page-turning skills, I feel I ought perhaps to say that my rates are very reasonable 

He and I, one day, will write a book of John Ogdon reminiscences. How about it, AH?

I'm game if you are...

Best,

Alistair