Yeah! Let us shoot all the terrorists!

[bernhard]

A little story.

Imagine you are a foreigner living in London. You do not speak the language very well. Who knows, your visa may even have expired. You are aware that there was a "terrorist" attack in the tube, and the police has been saying that there are still terrorists at large. The news and the government are adopting their usual "let us kill terrorists" attitude.

Then the very day you are arriving at your station and getting out of the train there is some sort of commotion. You smell smoke. Maybe another "suicide bomber"? All you can think about is how to get away of the underground station. You start to run. Someone shouts at you something you cannot quite understand. You look quickly and see some people with guns. No police is around. You run for your life, since these are the terrorists no doubt... You get shot. In fact you get murdered by "policemen" in plain clothes.

Far-fatched?

It just happened. The dangerous "terrorist" murdered by heroic plain clothes SAS trained personel turned out to be a Brazilian national with no links whatsoever to anything remotely muslim or terrorist. His only crime: carryiing a rucksack and having the wrong skin colour.


The official line: "It was an unfortunate accident" (But we can live with that to safeguard our safety, can't we? What safety? if you are not killed by "terrorists" you get murdered by the police)

Way to go Tony!

Who are the terrorists now?


Best wishes,
Bernhard

[Jacey1973]

I know, i was rather shocked by the whole thing.

But then the police have to make split second decisions. I really don't know the details but if they believed a suicide bomber was about to blow himself up that second they have to act fast. I was wondering why they didn't aim for his leg or sumthin just to stop him, but that wouldn't have stopped him detonating the bomb.

I feel sad about what is happening in our capital and i reckon there's probably more to come.

[Kassaa]

Two policeman jumped on the guy, so he couldn't move, and the third policeman shot 5 times.

It's really sad.

[prometheus]

I was more shocked by this than by the attacks.

They should put the people who put this 'shoot first, ask questions later'-policy in place on trial.

[bernhard]

I know, i was rather shocked by the whole thing.

But then the police have to make split second decisions. I really don't know the details but if they believed a suicide bomber was about to blow himself up that second they have to act fast. I was wondering why they didn't aim for his leg or sumthin just to stop him, but that wouldn't have stopped him detonating the bomb.

I feel sad about what is happening in our capital and i reckon there's probably more to come.

Think about it:

A suicide bomber is likely to run? After all he would have entered the tube in order to blow himself up. Wouldn't he stop  and welcome the police with open arms?

However, wouldn't anyone go into a panic and run if a bomb was likely to blow? What is the likeliest scenario?

and hadn't he been already been controlled by two policemen?

Detail: there was nothing to identify these individuals as police. They maight as well be terrorists. Remember that London, ulike hte US has no gun culture. A person dressed in plain clothes with any kind of gun would definitely be regarded as a potential terrorist.

But then it seems no one thinks anymore. Can anyone explain to me, for instance, how a suicide bomber blows himself to smitereens and yet his documents are all recovered unscathed?

Can anyone explain how piano man has not yet been identified and yet the police is able to identify several terrorists just by watching CCTV in less than a day?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[thalbergmad]

I was more shocked by this than by the attacks.

They should put the people who put this 'shoot first, ask questions later'-policy in place on trial.

They won't put the people who put this policy in place on trial, but probably ( and regretfully) the people who carried it out.

I had feared that something like this was going to happen. The police had to be seen to be doing something to fight back against the terrorists, but an innocent man has been killed in the process.

The man that shot him had to make a split second decision which was unfortunately the wrong one.

The terrorists have created the fear that they desired. Everyone will be looking at Asian men carrying rucksacks with suspicion and i do fear that another incident will happen.

In London during the Jack the Ripper murders of the 1880's it was rumoured that the Ripper was a jew. There was anarchy on the streets.

I feel there are dangerous times ahead.

[BoliverAllmon]

cooler heads did not prevail

[i_m_robot]

Two policeman jumped on the guy, so he couldn't move, and the third policeman shot 5 times.

It's really sad.

was about to say police have the right to shoot if you run

but this is just cold murder

[BoliverAllmon]

that is pathetic. holding him down and shooting.

[bernhard]

And that is why one should resist extra legislation since such extra legislation will not increase security but will give carte balnceh to the powers to be to behave as they please.

[bernhard]

was about to say police have the right to shoot if you run

but this is just cold murder

If you believed a bomb was about to go wouldn't you run? If English was not your native language and you heard someone shouting at you and you got a glimpse of three guys heavily armed with no signs whatsoever that they were police personel, wouldn't you run? And if you are in the grip of panic, wouldn't you run?

The only person that would not run in such circumstances, ironically enough would be a suicde bomber.

[BoliverAllmon]

If you believed a bomb was about to go wouldn't you run? If English was not your native language and you heard someone shouting at you and you got a glimpse of three guys heavily armed with no signs whatsoever that they were police personel, wouldn't you run? And if you are in the grip of panic, wouldn't you run?

The only person that would not run in such circumstances, ironically enough would be a suicde bomber.

shouldn't the police realize this? if the dude runs he probably isn't a terrorist.

[dinosaurtales]

I know everybody is going to be all up in arms in anger with the policemen, but I blame the terrorists for this "casualty of war".  After all, they are the ones that established the environment where such an incident can occur. 

[Barbosa-piano]

 This is actually the first time I am reading about this... And I am Brazilian! Well, it probably would not be a problem for me to run around London, because I have white skin, as most Brazilians do, contrary to what many people may think... But this is still shocking... Well, something has to be done about terrorist, but in an orderly way. In this situation, it is almost impossible to avoid this... The guy does not understand English well, therefore he could not obey to the Police guard's orders. But on the other side, the police had to do something about it, if the guy shows many characteristics of a Muslim, which could be interpreting Islam wrongly, and does not respond to police orders, this could be dangerous. I would say that shooting him right away was a fatal error, that was done in hurry, without careful planning, absurd. But the terrorist manhunt is on...

Mario Barbosa

[Barbosa-piano]

I know everybody is going to be all up in arms in anger with the policemen, but I blame the terrorists for this "casualty of war". After all, they are the ones that established the environment where such an incident can occur.

 I agree in a way... But I still hold on to the thought that they could have been a little more cautious, even in a desperate situation as this.

[tenn]

It's easy to be wise after the event.
If I were sitting on that tube train who would I choose to defend me -
Bernhard or those brave police officers?
Give me the police any day despite their error of judgement.

[bernhard]

It's easy to be wise after the event.
If I were sitting on that tube train who would I choose to defend me -
Bernhard or those brave police officers?
Give me the police any day despite their error of judgement.

If you were in that train, chances are you would be terrified, not of this poor Brazilian, but of three men brandishing guns and shouting. You would have assumed that your "brave" policemen were the terrorists, since they did not identify themselves as police. And the guy was shot point blank after being already dominated. This was not an error of judgement. This was a deliberate message to the population: We are going to shoot to kill.

Check it out.

Eye witness Mark Whitby (a 47 year old engineer):

“I saw an Asian guy about mid to late 20s, chubby, wearing a black baseball cap. He ran on to the train hotly pursued by three plainclothes officers, one of them wielding a black handgun.

As he got into the train I looked at his face. He looked sort of left and right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit. He looked absolutely petrified.

They couldn’t have been anymore than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half-tripped and was half-pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand.

He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him.

He had a sort of thickish coat – it was a coat you’d wear in winter, sort of like a padded jacket.

He might have had something concealed under there, I don’t know. But it looked sort of out of place with the sort of weather we’ve been having the sort of hot humid weather.

I didn’t see him carrying anything. I didn’t even see a bag, to be quite honest.

I heard no warning before the shots were fired, It was “like an execution” and I had no idea of what was going on until I put two and two together"

I would only like to add the following comment, which the Brazilian members of this forum may confirm.

I have been to Brazil on holidays during the month of July (summer in the UK, winter there).

The heat there was pretty much unbearable. It was hotter than the British summer. Yet everyone was shivering with cold and wearing heavy coats. In a place I went, there was even a fireplace on! I couldn’t believe it. They could not believe I was not feeling any cold. They told me to come back in summer (January) to see what real hot weather was like. This guy was wearing a padded coat simply because the “hot” London weather was colder than winter weather in Brazil.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[pianonut]

it's really too bad that terrorism is happening in the first place.  sometimes, it is wrong location at the wrong time.  just as that baby that was caught in crossfire (crazed dad vs police).  the baby was obviously innocent.  and the mother had a right to complain vociferously - and mourn a total loss - BUT, the police were acting in self-defense and also for deference to lives that might be lost from the father shooting.

all i can say, is i'm glad i'm not a policeman.  you have to make a decision and stick to it.  if you make no decision it is as bad as making a mistake (which is bound to happen in the life of your career).  if i were trained as a soldier and had to go to war - i would pray to God NOT to make mistakes.  there is a difference between a WAR and a civilian caught in a WAR and we should strive to protect all that are in our power unless they prove themselves otherwise.  of course, iraqis use the tactics of women and children sometimes (provoking sympathy and compassion). 

on the whole, i believe the americans and british to be more actively compassionate when pushed to the limit than other nationalities who deal with war situations more often.  they become enured to the death - and violence.  at least our police are not after the general population (as in africa and other places where you cannot trust the police or those in power).  we may have an imperfect government - but at least we have a sense of freedom within limits. 

[thracozaag]

A little story.

Imagine you are a foreigner living in London. You do not speak the language very well. Who knows, your visa may even have expired. You are aware that there was a "terrorist" attack in the tube, and the police has been saying that there are still terrorists at large. The news and the government are adopting their usual "let us kill terrorists" attitude.

Then the very day you are arriving at your station and getting out of the train there is some sort of commotion. You smell smoke. Maybe another "suicide bomber"? All you can think about is how to get away of the underground station. You start to run. Someone shouts at you something you cannot quite understand. You look quickly and see some people with guns. No police is around. You run for your life, since these are the terrorists no doubt... You get shot. In fact you get murdered by "policemen" in plain clothes.

Far-fatched?

It just happened. The dangerous "terrorist" murdered by heroic plain clothes SAS trained personel turned out to be a Brazilian national with no links whatsoever to anything remotely muslim or terrorist. His only crime: carryiing a rucksack and having the wrong skin colour.


The official line: "It was an unfortunate accident" (But we can live with that to safeguard our safety, can't we? What safety? if you are not killed by "terrorists" you get murdered by the police)

Way to go Tony!

Who are the terrorists now?


Best wishes,
Bernhard

  What's your suggestion, then? (This was a horrible incident, of course)

koji

[tenn]

If you were in that train, chances are you would be terrified, not of this poor Brazilian, but of three men brandishing guns and shouting. You would have assumed that your "brave" policemen were the terrorists, since they did not identify themselves as police. And the guy was shot point blank after being already dominated. This was not an error of judgement. This was a deliberate message to the population: We are going to shoot to kill.

chances are you would be terrified - Yes

You would have assumed that your "brave" policemen were the terrorists, since they did not identify themselves as police. - No, I would probably have assumed they had just saved my life. And they are brave people to risk their lives believing that they were pursuing a man with a bomb.

This was not an error of judgement. This was a deliberate message to the population: We are going to shoot to kill. - That's unfounded and unjust.

The British police have a very tough job on their hands. They should be supported, not undermined at this time. My heart goes out to thet man's family and friends. But his death was a tragic accident, even more so than a lot of motor accidents which are actually caused by recklessness.

I repeat, those policemen were very brave to put themselves in danger as they believed at the time.

[prometheus]

They would have killed me too.


I say, let the terrorist bomb us. Lets just ignore them. We want to live in freedom, right. I thought that is what we cherish and makes our civilization great.

I rather live in a world where my own government pursuits freedom and democracy with a chance to get killed by a couple of crazies than living in a country where my government descides to take the risk of killing innocent people for no good reason. They knew when they put this policy in place this would happen. And they know, after reafferming it today, it will happen again.

I don't want live in a country where te law makes a calculation about my life. It should say: "Killing innocent people is wrong." It should even say "killing guilty people is wrong." Only killing in self defence is justified. If I lived in the UK I would go to the streets. Fight for freedom. If nothing is changed, overthrow the government.

I don't want to live in a country with a western-style sharia.

[allchopin]

I'm going to have to agree with Tenn here.

The persons required for such a job as an undercover officer are most likely going to be intelligent and trustworthy.  They are trained for many different scenarios and are ordered to take certain precautions on the job.  That being said, I'll bet that they were to keep an eye out for certain suspicious activities, which may have included running away from their orders and dressing/looking a certain way (that's just the way it is).  They apparently found someone that matched their descriptions of a suicide bomber and took the action they were told to take. 
There's always more to the story - I would like to hear the policemen's take on the incident.

[Barbosa-piano]

I would only like to add the following comment, which the Brazilian members of this forum may confirm.

I have been to Brazil on holidays during the month of July (summer in the UK, winter there).

The heat there was pretty much unbearable. It was hotter than the British summer. Yet everyone was shivering with cold and wearing heavy coats. In a place I went, there was even a fireplace on! I couldn’t believe it. They could not believe I was not feeling any cold. They told me to come back in summer (January) to see what real hot weather was like. This guy was wearing a padded coat simply because the “hot” London weather was colder than winter weather in Brazil.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

That can be true depending on were you are. In my city it was exactly the same way, there was a confortable weather, but people had coats and jackets on. In south Brazil for example, that is not entirely true, since it snows there, in winter and rarely in summer. In Sao Paulo, it gets cold enough that the water on the ground freezes. But in Rio, a completely different story, although Sao Paulo is only about an 8 hour drive from Rio... There are many different climates in Brazil due to its extent, ranging from above the Equator, to significantly below the Tropic of Capricorn.

They would have killed me too.


I say, let the terrorist bomb us. Lets just ignore them. We want to live in freedom, right. I thought that is what we cherish and makes our civilization great.

I rather live in a world where my own government pursuits freedom and democracy with a chance to get killed by a couple of crazies than living in a country where my government descides to take the risk of killing innocent people for no good reason. They knew when they put this policy in place this would happen. And they know, after reafferming it today, it will happen again.

I don't want live in a country where te law makes a calculation about my life. It should say: "Killing innocent people is wrong." It should even say "killing guilty people is wrong." Only killing in self defence is justified. If I lived in the UK I would go to the streets. Fight for freedom. If nothing is changed, overthrow the government.

I don't want to live in a country with a western-style sharia.

I think Britain should get tougher restrictions on the immigration, kick out the illegal ones, and have a nice talk to the regular ones, about RESPECTING their country, obeying the law, and enjoy that they are in a free country to practice their religion freely, but not to abuse of those rights by misinterpretations of their religion, although, I know that this would be viewed as racism, discrimination, blah,blah... But you have to impose authority, so that they understand, that living in a new country, profiting and get benefits from it, requires them to respect the customs of the region, and adapting to what is given to them. The ones that wish to make part of a new country, and be loyal to it, should be accepted as a citizen with open heart, because, those are the ones that could represent and help build your country in growth of knowledge and economy. If they don't like it, send them back home, otherwise, it will be dangerous to you.
Since this has now become domestic, it will be a pain, because they are part of the country, but they are still connected to their previous generation, which may have been a harmful one. Now, their are not international terrorists, but they are domestic criminals, and the police plays the game their way at home...
Now, if this is not done in a right, orderly way, you could be the next one that the police shoots down. This has to be stopped correctly, in a way that the nation is not frightened to go out on the streets, freely. The police just took orders.

Mario Barbosa

[i_m_robot]

chances are you would be terrified - Yes

You would have assumed that your "brave" policemen were the terrorists, since they did not identify themselves as police. - No, I would probably have assumed they had just saved my life. And they are brave people to risk their lives believing that they were pursuing a man with a bomb.

This was not an error of judgement. This was a deliberate message to the population: We are going to shoot to kill. - That's unfounded and unjust.

The British police have a very tough job on their hands. They should be supported, not undermined at this time. My heart goes out to thet man's family and friends. But his death was a tragic accident, even more so than a lot of motor accidents which are actually caused by recklessness.

I repeat, those policemen were very brave to put themselves in danger as they believed at the time.

actually if self saw this

self would think it was some gang related murder

come on - held down and shot

maybe if he were shot while running or pointed his hand in their direction

the officer might as well had put his foot on the guys head then looked away as he fired

it would have made more of an impact to the public

stringing the guys dead body up in the nude in front of his home town would really send a message

plus the guy was from brazil

who cant tell the difference between a brazilian and a person from the middle east

they might as well go around shooting native americans and asians too

[prometheus]

If you read the eyewithness report you will see that even he didn't realise at first what was happening, so he didn't realise those people were policemen.


Also, I assume Bernard isn't saying the policemen made a mistake. The policymakes made one. Blair said ( the policeguy) that he is responsible for the death of this man. He is the one to blame.

Barbosa-piano, you talk about 'us' and 'them'. That's wrong.

Also, I think Britain, and a lot of european countries, already have very strict immigration laws. This has a lot of bad effects on a lot of things.
Plus it isn't really helping since most terrorists and wannabe's are messed up teenagers from big cities. They where born in Europe. It is a european urban problem.

Actually, I don't really understand what you mean and how it would work. You mean they should become christians or atheists? Wear western clothing? Should muslim woman go and lie topless on the beach? Or do you mean that they should learn the language, learn a profession and get a job?

who cant tell the difference between a brazilian and a person from the middle east

they might as well go around shooting native americans and asians too

I think he was white. There are white fundamentalist muslims in psuedo-terrorists groups too. The guys that blew themselves up in the metro could have been caucasian.

[leahcim]

I think Britain should get tougher restrictions on the immigration, kick out the illegal ones, and have a nice talk to the regular ones, about RESPECTING their country, obeying the law, and enjoy that they are in a free country to practice their religion freely, but not to abuse of those rights by misinterpretations of their religion

...and we should tag tourists too? Knee-jerk reactions like deporting domestic staff and making finger waving speeches at furrigners aren't going to make the country safer.

I think that would be extremely OTT - unless you're going to extend the "nice talk" to everyone.

I certainly don't respect many of Britains "customs" [although I wouldn't blow anyone to pieces because of that - I don't expect the vast majority of people visiting and living in Britain would either - whatever their origins] Even you don't appear to have much respect for our custom of us having the right not to respect them

[i_m_robot]

think he was white. There are white fundamentalist muslims in psuedo-terrorists groups too. The guys that blew themselves up in the metro could have been caucasian.

Scotland Yard's admission that an innocent man, Brazilian electrician Jean Charles de Menezes, was shot dead on Friday by plain-clothed police searching for the 21 July London bombers has focused attention on the record of British firearms officers.

looks pretty white dont he

he couldnt have been white because they would have never suspected him if he was

sadly

[i_m_robot]

Most police forces in the UK supply their firearms units with rules of engagement based on guidelines from the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo).

These state that they:


Must identify themselves and declare intent to fire (unless this risks serious harm).

Should aim for the biggest target (the torso) to incapacitate and for greater accuracy.

Should reassess the situation after each shot.

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711619.stm

[m1469]

What a "luxury" it is to be able to sit around and talk about this stuff at will  :- .


m1469

[prometheus]

Looks more white than black to me.

But where those guys even police agents? I heard some rumors about SAS guys (special forces).

[i_m_robot]

the world is more than just black and white

[i_m_robot]

What a "luxury" it is to be able to sit around and talk about this stuff at will  .


m1469

its not a luxury

its called a day off

 

[thalbergmad]

If you read the eyewithness report you will see that even he didn't realise at first what was happening, so he didn't realise those people were policemen.


Also, I assume Bernard isn't saying the policemen made a mistake. The policymakes made one. Blair said ( the policeguy) that he is responsible for the death of this man. He is the one to blame.

Barbosa-piano, you talk about 'us' and 'them'. That's wrong.

Also, I think Britain, and a lot of european countries, already have very strict immigration laws. This has a lot of bad effects on a lot of things.
Plus it isn't really helping since most terrorists and wannabe's are messed up teenagers from big cities. They where born in Europe. It is a european urban problem.

Actually, I don't really understand what you mean and how it would work. You mean they should become christians or atheists? Wear western clothing? Should muslim woman go and lie topless on the beach? Or do you mean that they should learn the language, learn a profession and get a job?

I think he was white. There are white fundamentalist muslims in psuedo-terrorists groups too. The guys that blew themselves up in the metro could have been caucasian.

Strict immigration laws do not exist in England. I live in the South-East of England which has had more than its fair share of immigrants.

I agree with barbosa-piano. We need to get more tough on the whole and definately against the hate filled preachers. Concerning the ones that hate England and our way of life, i wonder how many are drawing benefits and utilising other free services.

If anyone don't like it here, then leave.

[m1469]

its not a luxury

its called a day off

 

Well, hmmm, I am talking mainly about the fact that we are not shot for expressing our concerns about our governments and talking about what we dislike about them.  That freedom, would truly be considered as a luxury by some around the world.  ALSO, the very fact that we concern ourselves with such things at all, instead of wondering where our next meal is coming from or how is our health going to recover without medical attention or how long are these clothes truly going to last me. 

This subject, here in this thread, is definitely worth the discussion, imo, but these types of discussions often seem greatly out of context to me.   Please excuse, but this topic is very important to me and I have to fight hard to be able to say anything at all without just launching.  So, I will stay more quiet...


m1469

[i_m_robot]

its called a hierarchy of needs

once certain needs are fulfilled the next level of needs is saught

sure we could discuss other things

by why stop there

why not go over and help them

if one discusses it matters not what one discusses

but actions do matter

if one isnt going to act but rather discuss

what makes the difference what is discussed

[m1469]

its called a hierarchy of needs

once certain needs are fulfilled the next level of needs is saught

sure we could discuss other things

by why stop there

why not go over and help them

if one discusses it matters not what one discusses

but actions do matter

if one isnt going to act but rather discuss

what makes the difference what is discussed

I comletely agree.  I guess, I would hope that any disscussion of anything may serve the purpose of growth in whatever that way may be.  This includes a HUGE and VAST variety of things, maybe everything that was ever uttered even if it seems perfectly useless at the time.  BUT my point is that inspiring action would be a good reason for discussion, but you are right, if there is never action, ultimately, any discussion is completely meaningless, imo.

As far as the hierarchy of needs, I agree.  Part of my point though, is that, while even the coutries that are considered to be the "richest" have their share of poverty stricken peoples, what exactly allows for anybody to move from basic needs to the next level ?  It is difficult for me to accept too much argument from people about their governments when they are personally reaping the benefits of fully stocked food markets and available health care.

I may sound as though I am a governemnt supporter, in the traditional sense of the words, but believe me, this is not it.  I just want to get to the root of the problem, that's all.  This is (the root of the problem), for whatever reason, man's seemingly eternal blindness.

Arghhhh.... 

[dinosaurtales]

What a "luxury" it is to be able to sit around and talk about this stuff at will  .


m1469

You are right.  It is an INCREDIBLE luxury that is taken for granted by most.  Would we get to discuss what we think the government should or shouldn't do in say, China?  or North Korea?   Most places on earth?  Even if the people could discuss topics, what is their ability to enact changes?  I think we'd all better wake up and smell the coffee before we find ourselves "taken over" - culturally if not officially.

[Jacey1973]

Think about it:

A suicide bomber is likely to run? After all he would have entered the tube in order to blow himself up. Wouldn't he stop  and welcome the police with open arms?

However, wouldn't anyone go into a panic and run if a bomb was likely to blow? What is the likeliest scenario?

and hadn't he been already been controlled by two policemen?

Detail: there was nothing to identify these individuals as police. They maight as well be terrorists. Remember that London, ulike hte US has no gun culture. A person dressed in plain clothes with any kind of gun would definitely be regarded as a potential terrorist.

But then it seems no one thinks anymore. Can anyone explain to me, for instance, how a suicide bomber blows himself to smitereens and yet his documents are all recovered unscathed?

Can anyone explain how piano man has not yet been identified and yet the police is able to identify several terrorists just by watching CCTV in less than a day?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Oh i forgot about piano man! What's happening with him then? Anyone know?

[llamaman]

That was really sad. I would type, like 3 pages about it, but I'm not going to due to lack of time. My family cancelled our trip to England to see relatives due to the bombings.

[leahcim]

If anyone don't like it here, then leave.

Apparantly one test they want to introduce is literacy. Do you think that's a good idea?

[i_m_robot]

dont matter how its said so long as the meaning is understanded

[thalbergmad]

Apparantly one test they want to introduce is literacy. Do you think that's a good idea?

So Sorry,

Anyone who does not like it here should leave.

Literacy tests would be an excellent idea.

If they are in English that is.

[stevie]

another good reason to live in the country, terrorists only target major cities.

[c18cont]

 

What a freedom some seem to have....To sit around and write to practically every thread on a forum all day, when they could be practicing piano....

John

[c18cont]

Did I just see...the actual # of shots was 8?

However, that was on Fox.......................................................

John

[c18cont]

Welllll,

Seems that the issue about the youngster..(to me, anyway...), that was acc. shot is still causing increasing bad feelings about the "shoot first.." principle taken up by the British Bobbies....

Seems there will be a lawsuit...

Jonn

[ada]

What I can't believe is that anyone could possibly argue the events of July 7 were unconnected to the travesty in Iraq. I mean blind freddy can see there's a direct link. I knew pandora's box had been opened the day the US defied the UN and most of the world and all decency and sanity and started a war in Iraq. I remember feeling sick to my stomach at the thought of it and it's all happened just like every sensible person said it would. There's no turning back. They've unleashed something awful now. This is so depressing and frustrating.

[pianonut]

not knowing is very hard.  it seems that the events that are happenning could be foretold in prophecy (as in daniel when it talks about the king of the south vs. the king of the north).  also, in revelations it talks about the seven last plagues.  when we have severe heat - i sometimes ponder the 'fourth angel's' plague.  rev. 16:8 "and the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.  and men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues; and they did not repent, so as to give Him glory."

the previous plagues of 1) malignant sores (cancer, aids) 2)the sea creatures dying (pollution, oil spills - like blood) 3) pollution of rivers and springs of water   the apostle john was writing all this from a vision he saw, and his descriptions are so accurate of today!  we won't know until it's over, but that's how noah saw things too.  really bad.  he was just able to overcome the fear, because God gave Him things to do in the meantime. 

rev. 16:14 says, about war, "demons go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.  Behold, I am coming like a thief.  Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his garments, lest he walk about naked and men see his shame. And they gathered together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.  (this is after the fifth and sixth plagues which include the drying up of the river in Iraq called the Euphrates - to make way for the kings of the east).

Many interesting things to ponder, but not be afraid of.  Why would God kill innocent people, as man does?  no, He's too powerful for that.  He hits his targets dead on.  There will not be mistakes.  Chapter 17 of revelation deals only with BABYLON (which, by the way, is in Iraq - not that i am so knowledgeable , but that i just put two and two together as time goes).  vs. 17 "For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast (those who want to take charge of the world - as rome, napoleon's empire, and the union of europe) until the words of God should be fulfilled."  If/when babylon (iraq) is intervened in by europe, and armies of the nations go to the area - we know we are in armageddon. of course, many nations have already been feeling the demons of destruction.  our countries have not had the devastation (from weather totally, war, plague, etc.) but probably will when war breaks.    will it be over oil?  over religion? they have 'one purpose' (to give their power and authority to the beast - europe? - when they go to receive a kingdom (land, power) and will try to fight against God at his return. 

chapter 19 quotes handel "hallelujiah!  For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns!"  he then avenges any christians who have been killed(not by God's plagues, but by terrorism, etc), and invites all who will come to the marriage supper between Him and his righteous saints.  on His robe and thigh is a name "King of Kings, and Lord of Lords"  We will witness the destruction of all these armies (as in rev. 19:17) and the replacement of a new government.

[galonia]

Well, all we know is, the jobs of police and law enforcement and security people are not easy - they have to make very difficult decisions under difficult circumstances, and do it quickly.

If, in that split second, they think they are facing a suicide bomber, then they must shoot to kill.

Merely wounding a suicide bomber does not help anyone, because the bomber can still detonate their device.

As for the man looking scared - being a suicide bomber does not preclude one from being scared - anyone facing death would be scared.  So there is no way for police to judge simply by saying, he looks scared, he must be harmless.

What has happened is terrible, but I don't see any easy solutions.

[c18cont]

Well...I agree...

There are no easy solutions, or maybe not any at all, and....The police sure have a hard time....(How many are willing to be a police officer in these times?)?