Sharp pain in Elbows and arms

[klerg]

Hello. When I play piano i have pain in my arms and especially elbows.  Also, when I work on a computer I have pain there, too. Is it because computers and pianos simply don't mix? Poor posture? I do slouch a bit only when i play piano, though. Please, some advice would be appreciated.

[jeremyjchilds]

Try working out...I'm serious.

I get all kinds of little nagging aching pians when i start slacking in my workout routine. fingers, wrists, ankles, knees, you name it...

THere is no substitute for a healthy lifestyle and a healthy amount of muscle mass. Your connective tissue and joints will be strengthened, and your posture will improve.

If you already do work out, then whatever you do don't stop

Of course, there are the common answers...
You may have too much tension, or incorrect playing position...
You may have poor practice habits....why am I writing this-do a search on "pain"

Hope it works out for you

[xvimbi]

I have to respectfully disagree with the previous poster. I believe good posture has little to do with strength, not even the often-mentioned abdominal muscles. On the contrary. Strength is most often simply used to mask bad posture, to compensate for it, not to correct it. But that's really a different topic.

In any case, computers and piano mix perfectly well - as long as you carry out movements that are anatomically correct. You have a choice. You can use bad movements or good ones, and you can use them, or not, in practically any situation. Granted, certain environments help if one doesn't have the discipline. For example, you could try using a trackball instead of a mouse, getting a different chair, getting a better monitor, getting larger glasses, etc., but the principle remains: it's your choice.

How certain are you that you have good posture? Do you know what good posture is and how it feels? This is not meant as an offense, I only want to make sure that you have the correct goals in mind If you do have good posture, do you also have good movements?

In any case, pain means there is something wrong in how you use your body. It doesn't have to be the piano. It can be your computer work that is aggravetd by playing the piano, or the other way around, or it can be something completely different. The only way to find out is to make changes and see how they affect the symptoms. To help you along, you'd have to explain exactly what it is that gives you problems and what those problems are. Oh yes, one more thing: if you are in pain, stop doing what causes the pain until it is gone, then retrain.

[ryan2189]

I also have a quick side question regarding this topic. I have albinism (albino) For those who are unfamiliar, it results with extremely poor eyesght as well as pure white skin and hair. I feel that my uncurable genetic problem is one reason why I also have bad posture. (i.e. leaning over to read music) Are there any ways I can help this problem? Obviously I can try to enlarge my music, but that results with lots of off spacing and  it's a real pain to get right. I cannot find lots of my books in large print either.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[tinkertanker]

Hello. When I play piano i have pain in my arms and especially elbows.  Also, when I work on a computer I have pain there, too. Is it because computers and pianos simply don't mix? Poor posture? I do slouch a bit only when i play piano, though. Please, some advice would be appreciated.

If it's the same as me it could be either tennis or golfer's elbow. If it on the outside of the arm - tennis, inside - golfers. It's a type of tendonitis. If it is tendonitis the poster mentioning working out is partially correct. Treatment for this is exercise using light free weights flexing at the wrist and doing between 40-60 repetitions. It works the tendons and the muscles of the forearm breaking them down so your body increases the blood flow to build them back up healthily. (I cannot stress enough how the weight used should allow you to do that many reps. If you can only do 10 you will make the condition worse not better. This isn't body-building, your not trying to work the muscle but more the tendon). Of course I can't tell what your condition is but if your doctor tells you it's tendonitis I would go and see a sports physio ( a doctor would probably just give you anti-inflamatories and not treat the problem). You would probably be looking at a 4-6 week period but it can be a recurring problem. Thing is, those tendons don't have a very good blood supply anyway.

Posture does make a difference. The condition could have sprung up because of bad posture or it could have been because of overuse without your tendons being used to it. Mine came on becuase of bench-pressing not the piano, but the pain also arose when playing the piano. I've had it for about 4 months on and off, but it's on its way out now thank god. It's not the end of the world if it is tendonitis as it is treatable. Tenosynovitis is what you have to worry about

Hope this helps.

Nick

[tinkertanker]

I also have a quick side question regarding this topic. I have albinism (albino) For those who are unfamiliar, it results with extremely poor eyesght as well as pure white skin and hair. I feel that my uncurable genetic problem is one reason why I also have bad posture. (i.e. leaning over to read music) Are there any ways I can help this problem? Obviously I can try to enlarge my music, but that results with lots of off spacing and  it's a real pain to get right. I cannot find lots of my books in large print either.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Sorry to hear about your predicament mate. On the practical side of enlarging music quickest way would be to acquire sheet music in electronic form, print out on A4 then have it expanded onto A3 using a photocopier or at a printers. Also, please forgive me if I am being ignorant on this but, can your optician help with a good pair of glasses with the right length of focus?

[ryan2189]

thanks tinkertanker. As for my eyesight, glasses do not help my vision at any length because part of my vision problem is that I have an undeveloped retina in the back of my eye. So even with correct lenses my sight would still be poor. I like to say that it is like having the best kind of camera money can buy, but without the right film you will never get a clear picture. Oh and no you are not being ignorant.  I think it is good that people ask questions to understand something unfamiliar to them.

Thanks again

[pokita]

I developed similar problems this year. I'm sitting in front of a computer 8-10 hours a day and afterwards I usually play piano for about one hour. I developed serious pain in both thumbs and in my shoulders - and I can say that I'm a quite muscular guy as I'm working out 2-3 times a week. But like xvimbi said, you have to train with respect to your anatomy. A big biceps or a strong chest can in fact do more harm than good if other muscles stay weak and underdeveloped.
First I went to an orthopaedic specialist but he couldn't find much. But then I went to a physiotherapist and she has really helped me tremendously. She showed me special exercises to train the underdeveloped muscles and what to change at my workplace. The pain lessened significantly already after a week of training.

[klerg]

In any case, computers and piano mix perfectly well - as long as you carry out movements that are anatomically correct. You have a choice. You can use bad movements or good ones, and you can use them, or not, in practically any situation. Granted, certain environments help if one doesn't have the discipline. For example, you could try using a trackball instead of a mouse, getting a different chair, getting a better monitor, getting larger glasses, etc.

And what movements would those be? I'll be looking into getting a trackball, although i wish that i could avoid using a mouse altogether as i think that it contributes greatly to the pain, but its probably not possible to stop using it as long as i'm at a computer.

How certain are you that you have good posture? Do you know what good posture is and how it feels? This is not meant as an offense, I only want to make sure that you have the correct goals in mind If you do have good posture, do you also have good movements?

No, No I feel no offense at all. I'm not sure what is good posture, for both piano playing and working at a computer. Somehow, i think its a different approach in this case. Since my posture isn't anything special or unique; I'd rather be informed of whats 'proper' or 'effective'

If it's the same as me it could be either tennis or golfer's elbow.  It's a type of tendonitis. If it is tendonitis the poster mentioning working out is partially correct. Treatment for this is exercise using light free weights flexing at the wrist and doing between 40-60 repetitions. It works the tendons and the muscles of the forearm breaking them down so your body increases the blood flow to build them back up healthily. (I cannot stress enough how the weight used should allow you to do that many reps. If you can only do 10 you will make the condition worse not better. This isn't body-building, your not trying to work the muscle but more the tendon). 

Hmmm....interesting that you state lifting weights and working out as a remedy. I hope that 'tennis elbow or golfers elbow' is a generic term for this type of pain, because i've never played golf before and can't recall the last time i played tennis. What exactly are 'light free weights' that you mention? So, is increasing the blood flow to the tendons and muscles going to get rid of the pain?

[xvimbi]

I don't have time right now, but I will get back to you as soon as I can. I haven't forgotten. In the meantime, let me recommend the book that I always recommend in these situations: Thomas Mark, "What every pianist needs to know about the body.
Also, check out www.pianomap.com

[tinkertanker]

Klerg, the conditions are commonly known as golfer's elbow and tennis elbow but they can arise for many reasons, you don't have to play tennis or golf to get them. By light free weights I just meant light dumbells (starting off with say 1lb dumbells then progressing when 60 reps is easy).

The whole idea of increasing the blood flow is to aid the body's own natural healing process. Generally I think muscles have a good blood supply (as your body needs to pump plenty of blood there so that the muscles have energy to work) whereas the tendons generally don't have as good a blood supply. By working them in a controlled manner you can temporariliy increase the bloodflow, assisting your body to heal the tendons.

I don't think you should try this type of thing though until your doctor has confirmed your prognosis. Your problem could be different and this type of rehabilitation could be damage rather than help your elbows.

[xvimbi]

And what movements would those be? I'll be looking into getting a trackball, although i wish that i could avoid using a mouse altogether as i think that it contributes greatly to the pain, but its probably not possible to stop using it as long as i'm at a computer.

Posture is one thing, movement another, although, ultimately, they are all connected. Confusing? Well, take getting out of a chair, for example. One can have perfect sitting posture and perfect standing posture, yet during the process of going from one to the other, one can easily wreck one's back. The reason is that the transition, i.e. the movement, from one posture to the other is bad. Unless the dynamic aspects of posture are mastered as well, the static aspects are of little use.

For computer work, use keyboard shortcuts as much as you can. Some operating systems can be used without a mouse (Apple's for example; I don't know about Windows). I switched to a trackball and couldn't be happier. Otherwise, use mouse and keyboard with just the necessary amount of force. Most people use way too much force when typing and pressing buttons, which increases the tension on the tendons.

No, No I feel no offense at all. I'm not sure what is good posture, for both piano playing and working at a computer. Somehow, i think its a different approach in this case. Since my posture isn't anything special or unique; I'd rather be informed of whats 'proper' or 'effective'

Good The principles behind how the body works are absolutely general and apply to using computers just as much as playing the piano, cooking or doing anything else, for that matter. It is therefore important to understand these general principles. The book that I mentioned is a good start, particularly because it talks about all this in the context of playing the piano. Don't try to separate playing the piano from everything else; it won't work. There are many activities that teach proper posture and high-quality movements (e.g., Yoga, Tai-Chi, various martial arts, Alexander Technique).

Hmmm....interesting that you state lifting weights and working out as a remedy. I hope that 'tennis elbow or golfers elbow' is a generic term for this type of pain, because i've never played golf before and can't recall the last time i played tennis. What exactly are 'light free weights' that you mention? So, is increasing the blood flow to the tendons and muscles going to get rid of the pain?

Hopefully yes. However, getting rid of the pain is not the primary goal. You could take a pain killer for that. The goal is to get rid of the causes of the pain. As tinkertanker said, increasing the blood flow may help, but you need a proper diagnosis first.