Van Cliburn - the most overrated pianist of all time

[stevie]

admittedly, i havent heard all of his tchaikovsky 1st and rach 2, but i have heard some and heard nothing special, the OCTAVES in the tchaikovsky are TERRIBLE, disgustingly slow.

im not saying he couldnt be a good pianist at times, but his technique was quite bad.
i have heard the most TERRIBLE mazeppa performed by him, a live recording from the tchaikovsky competition(which he WON!), mind-numbingly slow and extremely sloppy.

he is the most famous american pianist ever...and his recording of the tchaikovsky concerto is the best-selling piano record of all time!!

i mean...what?!

[thalbergmad]

I have heard his Tchaikovsky 1 and loved it.

His Chopin Ballades are just about second to none. Not heard the Mazeppa so i can't comment on that.

Just goes to show that one mans nectar is another mans poison.

I wonder if he won the Tchaikovsky competition because Richter gave him 100 out of 10 and all the others zero.

[stevie]

his playing lacks fire from what ive heard, i think him winning the tchaikovsky was a major conspiracy to help relations between russia and the US.

i cannot believe richter would do such a thing, seriously the only explanation i can find is that richter and cliburn were both homosexual...

[vladhorwz]

Van Cliburn's hands look like a big ugly spider when he plays.  His Brahms concerto 2? on the Bell telephone hour was pretty good but I keep having to look away becuase its  so akward looking.  And why does he have to tilt his head down and look through the top of his head to look straight forward?  I think Richter felt bad for him and gave him sympathy points. 

[Skeptopotamus]

heh.  Cliburn used to be cute *swoon*

he gets points for that.  I dunno about anything else.

[Skeptopotamus]

oh.  and the cliburn competition is probably the most kick-ass piano competition there is.

[stevie]

yeah he USED TO BE cute....

and the competition is as corrupt as they come

[Skeptopotamus]

that's not cliburn that's you XD


and i love the format of the competition.  I dont care if it's corrupt i plan to win it some day.

[brewtality]

I like both his Rach 3s. His Rach 2 and Tchaik 1st are also good. I haven't heard a great deal of his solo recordings.

[planetdave]

Cliburn couldn't be more overrated in his time than Paderewski. From what I've read not even Paderewski could compare to "Paderewski."

[guru_of_time]

I wonder if he won the Tchaikovsky competition because Richter gave him 100 out of 10 and all the others zero.

I guess he was off the Richter scale

I'm a big fan. When I first listened to his Rach 3, I wasn't the biggest fan of it, but after listening to it a couple of times, it's now in my top 3 recordings of it...it really grows on you

[chromatickler]

I guess he was off the Richter scale

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[da jake]

He had one of the weakest techniques of all the 'great' pianists. Certainly not SDC approved. 

Still, that Rach 3 recording with Kondrashin at Carnegie Hall is beautiful, albeit not the most virtuosic rendition. The sound he produces is fantastic. 

[vladimirdounin]

Van Cliburn won Tschaikovsky Competition not because of his good technique, it is obviously far from perfect and everybody knows this fact.

His victory has nothing to do with homosexuals - the majority of Russians hate gays.

He failed to pass even the 1st round, because 3 professors: Serebryakov, Oborin and some Western adjudicator, I do not want to remember his name, gave him 12% out of 100% (3 out of 25 in Russian system). It was "the hottest period" of "Cold War" when America and Russia almost started the nuclear war and the Russians were sure that the evil Americans are going to destroy them and their country at the first convenient moment. No Russian had love or positive feelings towards the Americans at that time.

And absolutely suddenly this young and imperfect pianist melted hearts of everyone in USSR into amazingly strong love to him. After 1958 people were standing for several YEARS in queues to get the ticket and chance to hear him alive again. If he will announce his concert in any city of Russia tonight - tomorrow it will be sold out for any price of tickets.

Do you know the secret? It just that he is so GOOD, he has such a wonderful, bright and clean soul, that everyone (except evil ones, of course) feels his goodness in his imperfect music. At the same time thousands of pianists are inspired with jealousy, with hatred, with EVIL. It is the first reason, why the majority of the people hate pianists and their music.

After Cliburn's performance at the 1st round all the streets of Moscow were covered with the words "The First prize - to Cliburn!" The secret police reported to the top-authorities that the crowd will definitely beat everybody in (of) adjudicators’ board and crash everything in and around the Moscow Conservatory if somebody else will be declared a winner. It was a really passionate love of the people that never will end in Russia. And the authorities were so scared that they withdrew their instruction to give the victory only to someone of Soviet performers, but not to the foreigner.

So, not Richter, not politicians, but the whole people gave the whole love to Cliburn: once and for ever. The 1st prize followed simply automatically. No one could divert it.

Do the same to any people of any nation - and you will be "overrated" as well. Even with bad, slow octaves and awkward passages. However who needs you and hundreds of other "perfect" pianists with their fast octaves and passages? They play their concerts for empty seats.  Spite and Jealousy are very bad friends for any musician, but especially for pianist - because the audience always sees what is inside of us and we are permanently in their focus.

 A. Goldenweiser (famous Russian professor) asked L.Oborin: how could you give such a low mark to Cliburn? Oborin answered that he hates pianists who make faces during their performance. Goldenweiser said: "Cliburn does not make faces, he simply speaks with God!
Unfortunately, it is not given to you even to understand".

It is so easy to find what is imperfect in Cliburn, and it so difficult to learn from him!

Try to understand, where is he different from you and many others?

Vladimir Dounin.

 



  

[Skeptopotamus]

he's not as cute as me and stevie up there, that's how.

[m]

 A. Goldenweiser (famous Russian professor) asked L.Oborin: how could you give such a low mark to Cliburn? Oborin answered that he hates pianists who make faces during their performance. Goldenweiser said: "Cliburn does not make faces, he simply speaks with God!
Unfortunately, it is not given to you even to understand".

It is so easy to find what is imperfect in Cliburn, and it so difficult to learn from him!

Try to understand, where is he different from you and many others?

Excellent post, Vladimir! Could not put it better.
Thank you.

[guru_of_time]

And absolutely suddenly this young and imperfect pianist melted hearts of everyone in USSR into amazingly strong love to him.

Check out the women in the front row of this picture lol
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5f/Van_Cliburn.jpg

[stevie]

Check out the women in the front row of this picture lol
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5f/Van_Cliburn.jpg

and hes GAY!

the injustice...

[prometheus]

So because he was a 'pure christian' he won? But then he was also gay? I don't have problems with that, but christians have.

And this is supposed to be a competition? I always found those stupid. But then they don't even objectively judge the competitors but give the price to the most popular one? Uuh?

Looks like people that listen to classical music are just as stupid and ignorant as people that listen to pop music.

The people had such 'love' for Cliburn that they would smash up everything if he didn't win? And this already after the first round? Did they even know he was gay back then? Would he have won if they knew? I don't care about this kind of stuff. But the people wanted him to win, no matter what, because he was such a 'clean soul'?

This is the most silly story I ever heard. If this is true then I have only one explenation. He must be the devil.

Does anyone have a rational explenation about why he won?

[m]

Does anyone have a rational explenation about why he won?

Prometheus,

I actually find it quite amusing you asking for rational explanation and giving such irrational arguments...

[da jake]

Why he won? Technical virtuosos are a dime-a-dozen in the Soviet Union. It's the ones that can bring a special sound to the stage the win.

[prometheus]

Prometheus,

I actually find it quite amusing you asking for rational explanation and giving such irrational arguments...

Uuh? Sadly I am not capable of irrationality. I friends always hope that I will be a bit more irrational.  How can you say this?

[vladhorwz]

Van Cliburn won Tschaikovsky Competition not because of his good technique, it is obviously far from perfect and everybody knows this fact.

His victory has nothing to do with homosexuals - the majority of Russians hate gays.

He failed to pass even the 1st round, because 3 professors: Serebryakov, Oborin and some Western adjudicator, I do not want to remember his name, gave him 12% out of 100% (3 out of 25 in Russian system). It was "the hottest period" of "Cold War" when America and Russia almost started the nuclear war and the Russians were sure that the evil Americans are going to destroy them and their country at the first convenient moment. No Russian had love or positive feelings towards the Americans at that time.

And absolutely suddenly this young and imperfect pianist melted hearts of everyone in USSR into amazingly strong love to him. After 1958 people were standing YEARS in queues to get the ticket and chance to hear him alive again. If he will announce his concert in any city of Russia tonight - tomorrow it will be sold out for any price of tickets.

Do you know the secret? It just that he is so GOOD, he has such a wonderful, bright and clean soul, that everyone (except evil ones, of course) feels his goodness in his imperfect music. At the same time thousands of pianists are inspired with jealousy, with hatred, with EVIL. It is the first reason, why the majority of the people hate pianists and their music.

After Cliburn's performance at the 1st round all the streets of Moscow were covered with the words "The First prize - to Cliburn!" The secret police reported to the top-authorities that the crowd will definitely beat everybody in (of) adjudicators’ board and crash everything in and around the Moscow Conservatory if somebody else will be declared a winner. It was a really passionate love of the people that never will end in Russia. And the authorities were so scared that they withdrew their instruction to give the victory only to someone of Soviet performers, but not to the foreigner.

So, not Richter, not politicians, but the whole people gave the whole love to Cliburn: once and for ever. The 1st prize followed simply automatically. No one could divert it.

Do the same to any people of any nation - and you will be "overrated" as well. Even with bad, slow octaves and awkward passages. However who needs you and hundreds of other "perfect" pianists with their fast octaves and passages? They play their concerts for empty seats.  Spite and Jealousy are very bad friends for any musician, but especially for pianist - because the audience always sees what is inside of us and we are permanently in their focus.

 A. Goldenweiser (famous Russian professor) asked L.Oborin: how could you give such a low mark to Cliburn? Oborin answered that he hates pianists who make faces during their performance. Goldenweiser said: "Cliburn does not make faces, he simply speaks with God!
Unfortunately, it is not given to you even to understand".

It is so easy to find what is imperfect in Cliburn, and it so difficult to learn from him!

Try to understand, where is he different from you and many others?

Vladimir Dounin.

 


  

Where did you get this information?

[janne p.]

Do you know the secret? It just that he is so GOOD, he has such a wonderful, bright and clean soul, that everyone (except evil ones, of course) feels his goodness in his imperfect music. At the same time thousands of pianists are inspired with jealousy, with hatred, with EVIL. It is the first reason, why the majority of the people hate pianists and their music.

 A. Goldenweiser (famous Russian professor) asked L.Oborin: how could you give such a low mark to Cliburn? Oborin answered that he hates pianists who make faces during their performance. Goldenweiser said: "Cliburn does not make faces, he simply speaks with God!
Unfortunately, it is not given to you even to understand".

Two things, mate:

God is dead.

The greatest are beyond good and evil.

[guru_of_time]

Two things, mate:

God is dead.

Keep in mind that this comment is offensive to many (including me).

[trix]

Van is so much more than a pianist...he really is a legend...an icon...an ideal...a fairytale...a dream.

The signifigance of the historic and political climate surrounding him can't be ignored in considering his amazing success: he's as as much, actually prolly alot more, of a political, cultural and charismatic wonder as he is a pianistic one.

I doubt there will ever be another like him.

[janne p.]

Keep in mind that this comment is offensive to many (including me).

So? Christian remarks are offensive to me.

[stevie]

Van is so much more than a pianist...he really is a legend...an icon...an ideal...a fairytale...a dream.

The signifigance of the historic and political climate surrounding him can't be ignored in considering his amazing success: he's as as much, actually prolly alot more, of a political, cultural and charismatic wonder as he is a pianistic one.

I doubt there will ever be another like him.

yeah, lets hope there isnt.

[musicsdarkangel]

WOW

His Tchaik 1 is probably the most tasteful I've heard.



Listen to his Winterwind etude, or Mephisto Waltz.


Every pianist has his/her strengths or weaknesses.

[prometheus]

Keep in mind that this comment is offensive to many (including me).

Don't be so childish. It would be foolish to expect respect for believing that invisible little elephants dance under my bed while I am sleeping. Believing in the christian version of god isn't very different.

When theists get respect from atheists this is because they feel sorry for them.


Let's not forget Cliburn was used as a politican tool after he returned to the US.

[da jake]

Why has this turned into a religious debate? I thought we were talking about Van Cliburn.

[donjuan]

Don't be so childish. It would be foolish to expect respect for believing that invisible little elephants dance under my bed while I am sleeping. Believing in the christian version of god isn't very different.

When theists get respect from atheists this is because they feel sorry for them.

touche'!!!! Its true its true!! As an atheist, I try to understand what the religious people are on about, but eventually.... well, yeah, exactly -just cave in and passively humor them because Ill be damned if theyll ever return the favor.

[vladimirdounin]

<quote author=prometheus link=topic=11364.msg118844#msg118844 date=1123178181]


And this is supposed to be a competition? I always found those stupid. But then they don't even objectively judge the competitors but give the price to the most popular one? Uuh?

Looks like people that listen to classical music are just as stupid and ignorant as people that listen to pop music./>




In fact each real competition should be like this, because the art in general and our music itself exist not for so called professionals, parrot- monkey trainers (see my article "The real meaning of the word "Expression") but for everyone, for plain people. The people pays and supports all the musicians, we exist for them, not they exist for us.

Music is just a normal, basic human's food, but not for mouth - it is for ears. Do you need judgement of "professionals" to tell in which one (out of two pots) Ice-cream is there and in which just excrements? Why people “are ignorant and stupid” if they prefer the first pot to the second one in spite of all opinions of the specialists of the same kind (from the pot No 2)?

TV and other media can brainwash the people effectively and make the stars out of this pot No 2, but they can not stop the people from loving and enjoying the real Ice-cream. I was lucky to see a lot of concerts where absolutely unknown artists eclipsed completely  the honoured ones’ that performed  before or after them.
             
By the way, no one composer (except modern ones with government's grants and sponsors) wrote classical music ever. All of them wrote pop-music (read about Handels operas and oratorios, Verdi's operas etc. Crowds were standing outside of theaters to hear at least something). The best of pop than turned into classic, not the best died off.
  V.D.

[vladimirdounin]

Where did you get this information?

ANSWER

You can read the book "A.B.Goldenweiser". It was published when L.Oborin was still alive and active. So, these words on the page had shocking effect on him.

 My teacher was his (Goldenweiser's) favourite student and I took lessons from L.Oborin (he was the head of our "sub-department", cathedra in Moscow Conservatory).

My parents were collecting all the articles about Cliburn, they should be still on the shelves of our book-cabinet.

 I was sitting many nights on the street under rain in the queues for the tickets "on Cliburn" - it was our (students') permanent source of extra "pocket money" (in the nights without rain people did not ask us to substitute them). I heard all the stories from the real witnesses.

 My other "job" was "volunteer-security" : to bring all the "stars" like Cliburn, Artur Rubinstein, Michelangeli, Horowitz etc. safely from their limo to the stage and then back. So, I could watch their rehearsals and put any questions to them or to the guide-translator.

My "boss" at the potato digging campaign (traditional assignment for all Russian students from the authorities) was Prof. S. Dorensky - close personal friend of Cliburn.

My St.Petersburg's teacher Prof. V. Nielsen had letters from Cliburn and always brought me to all his concerts in St.Petersburg (the second Russian capital).

I was living in the hostel between the people who participated in this competition in person and they knew all the details of "their" competition. It is one of most documented story I ever heard and I have no doubt regarding all these details that I posted.

V.D.   

[steinway43]

I dont understand the hostility toward Van Cliburn. There were many reason for his winning that competition.  Like him or not he had charisma.  People go ga-ga over that.

I agree his recording of the Thaikowsky #1 is slow by today's standards as were a number of his recordings, but in their time, they were classic in a way, clear, clean, transparent. As a kid he was a huge inspiration to me. To hear those old recordings now they seem disappointing in their lack of both fire and imagination.  I don't think you can say he had "bad" technique because he didn't play things as fast as, say, Martha Argerich would, but I do remember discussing recordings once with a teacher I had. I was 12 and he asked me who I listened to. When I said Van Cliburn he rolled his eyes and said. "He's not that good, don't you think he plays kinda.....SLOW?" 

In spite of his slow recordings I did see a filmed performance of his of the Tchaikowsky No. 1, from his early days, and it was beautiful.

Someone mentioned his hands looking like spiders. Yes. My parents took me to see him perform a couple of times and I'll never forget meeting him for an autograph afterward. Those hands, up close, were downright frightening.

There are other people who have careers who I see and think "HUH?!?!" I have not heard a single recording of Lazar Berman's I ever wanted to hear a second time, including that slow, boring recording he made of the Rach 3 that everyone called "definitive" when it came out.  Definitive? More like Sedative.

Cliburn was an icon of his time. Call it fate, call it..whatever you want. Some people are just destined for these things. 









 

[practicingnow]

Cliburn was a hell of a fine pianist when he was young, and at his best, certainly one of the best American pianists ever.  His "My Favorite Chopin" disc is as noble and poetic a reading of those pieces as you can ever hear - the Winter Wind, the B Major Nocturne, the Ab Ballade, the Fantasy, and the finest performance of the Ab Polonaise IMO (this Polonaise always seems to bring out the worst in pianists - however, his performance is so elegant and masculine, really poetically restrained, and with strong backbone).
He is a sensitive and artistic soul, and the nobility of his playing was genuine (the rarest thing) - we could use more of his kind

[arensky]

invisible little elephants dance under my bed while I am sleeping.

They do, they do! Dey do da Pony like bony maronry, doo da Watusi like yer Auntie Lucy...
  Sha na na na na na na na Sha na na na na na na na......HAH!!

[okeanos]

It's this whole thing with being either a good pianist or a good musician. Like Horowitz and Rubinstein, or even Clementi and Mozart. I personally think that technique is just not that important compared to emotion and maturity of the interpretation.

[brewtality]

It's this whole thing with being either a good pianist or a good musician. Like Horowitz and Rubinstein, or even Clementi and Mozart.

Probably not the greatest examples, seeing as how both Horowitz and Clementi were not only great pianists but great musicians as well.

Back on topic: Cliburn proably did suffer from over exposure but his early recordings really are great. I like both of his Rach 3s, his Tchaik first and Rach 2. Haven't heard a great deal of his solo recordings, but in those concerti he was impressive.

[gaer]

I was in sixth grade when the recording of Cliburn playing the Tchaikovsky 1st and the Rachmaninov 3rd was released, flip sides of one record.

I had already been given the live performance of Horowitz with Toscanini, and when a friend of mine talked about how great Cliburn was, I thought it was pure bunk. And the Rachmaninov 3rd seemed so slow in comparison to what I had heard. I remember one particular mistake in the first movement cadenza, and at that time I thought great pianists played perfectly. I also was not much impressed with the recording itself, the sound.

I was young, naive and used to studio recordings.

From time to time I've returned to this recording, and I now very much enjoy this live performance, mistakes and all. The mistakes are really very minor (there is a particularly noticeably mistake by the lead trumpet in the 3rd movement, so I think the orchestra under Kondrashin was nervous!). But now the imperfections just make it more human to me, and those hearing the perfomance live, even if they heard mistakes, would not have cared. Also, just think how few pianists played that work then.

Today I understand weird things happen live. I have another recording of Agerich playing the Tchaikovsky Bb that I think she might have tried to block, because the 3rd movement starts out with some mistakes that we would normally expect from lesser pianists. But from that point on, the whole performance just "smokes", a total adrenalin high, with the lady playing just on the edge of disaster and enough heart for players. I just love this live recording. In fact, the whole performance bears some amazing similarities to the Horowitz/Tocanini recording, but the slow movement is much slower and more thoughtful, which I think is wonderful.

I love the Cliburn Rachmaninov 3rd recording for another reason. For me it has  warmth and character that makes it unique. Each time I hear it now, I think how stupid I was when I was young.

However, the flip side (the Tchaikovsky 1st) is a different matter. I was told that Cliburn was so intent on a note-perfect studio recording of the Tchaikovsky that all the heart went out of it because of too many takes. Certainly this is quite possible. I've always suspected that live performances, during the Moscow Competition, were probably less accurate but much more inspired. Just a guess. Live is so differernt. I have never been blown away by anything Ashkenazy has recorded, but I heard him play the 2nd and 4th Beethoven Concertos in Miami, and I was totally enchanged by his playing. In addition, it was the most accurate live performance I've ever heard. Somewhere he partially "brushed" an adjacent key. Except for that, I believe that performance could have been released and passed for a studio recording, if crowd noise could have been "magically" eliminated.

Like some people in this thread, I once thought Cliburn was the product of political hype. But long ago I changed my mind.

Gaer