I donīt see how canīt we separate music and human beings.

[piazzo23]

Music should not be mentally related with Chopin, Mozart, Scriabin, Horowitz, Karajan...

Why should we defend those names?

Names are only useful for a commercial reason (musicians have to eat too).
And probably, in some musicians, to increase their vanity.

Once composed, music is free.

Do you listen to music and think of a personality at the same time? (composer, performer, conductor)

If you do, youīre feeding yourself with other things, not music.

Conclusion, you are not searching only for music.

Music should be yours, not Bachīs.
Then you will sympathize with the sounds youīre listening. Not with a human being.

There are so much other resources to feel identificated with a person.

When Pies said not to understand why the fervor with Chopinīs music, all those who feel identificated began posting like if they were being attacked.


Again,
why should we defend those names?

Respectīs not the answer. In fact, it has no answer.


Names are only to identify that CD youīre buying, or that piece youīre playing.

Please, think with me, not against me. Thatīs to prevent those kind of posts like "How dare you? The Masters!!! .

Iīm accustoming myself to think like that, and not defend composers, performers. Itīs hard but itīll be better to me and my listening related experiences.

Only my constructive thinking, please correct where you personally think Iīm wrong.

Kind of statements like "X person said that..." are not allowed 

I would like to hear yourselves elaborated conclusions. Not traditional folkloric answers.

[leahcim]

It's modern day celeb-status and academic meritocracy. No point standing at the front of the next Britney concert shouting "She's not as good as you all think!!" is there? So I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

If you think Mozart and Chopin are getting too big for their boots here, bear in mind the focus of the group, read somewhere else for a day and they won't know who they are or they'll think Beethoven is Furry Liza, DA DA DA DAAA and if they're female their fav piece will be moonlight sonata [but they might not have the Beethoven connection] - they won't know Rach from Bach etc etc. That should realign the position of the names a bit if it matters.

There are lots of goals someone might have and they differ between people and probably change over time. Whether they are academics, looking [or being] professional pianists, folk sat at home playing for fun or learning classical as a means to something else.

e.g it's unlikely given the amount of effort and number of times a concert pianist is going to play pieces you're going to read many "Chopin? Well it's alright I guess, pays the gas bill"

OTOH, a silly stool, strange humming and wacky interpretation can be a path to infamy - but not if you wanted more focus on the music than your mannerisms.

An interesting question w.r.t this folder of the forum is if your teacher insists when you want to be more liberal I guess, but other than that - why "attack" those names - if you don't you won't see any defence.

[alzado]

You are right, of course.  We should not "enshrine" the names of composers, and then defend them blindly.

At the same time, if you have been visiting this forum for some time, you will be aware that there's a category of postings one might term, "bringing down the giants."  In the past couple of months, such postings have questioned the value of Chopin, Beethoven, and Mozart.  Who will be next?

I suspect some of this is an attempt to "stir the pot" and gain a large number of postings to a particular topic.  People should try to see this as a kind of game, and not be drawn in with outraged and indignant replies.

Yes, I really agree with you.  Music on the piano has a lot to do with personal taste.  This is especially true for many of us who have no professional involvement and just play for enjoyment.  Play what you like, and enjoy what you play!

Good luck!

[Floristan]

The great composers we play a lot (like Bach, Chopin, Beethoven, et al.) had very distinctive styles, idiomatic to themselves.  Even if we were to call them X, Y and Z, the styles would still be distinctive, and it would still be necessary to become familiar with the style by studying all of composer X's music.  Then the task is surely to perform composer X in a way that best illustrates his/her idiom -- not just in any old way that strikes your fancy.  Even doing this, there is room for individual interpretation without becoming bizarre.  The point is always for me, does it follow the composer's intention (as far as notation can determine that) and does it make the music understandable.  By that I mean, can the listener hear the voices on different levels, are the rhythms clear, do the dynamics relate to each other as the score indicates, etc.  Then the task is, have I succeeded in making this piece sound like one of composer X's pieces (as opposed to sounding like composer Y).  (My big complaint with Glenn Gould has always been that he often makes other composers sound like Bach.)

All creations are independent of their creator, of course, and a piece of music can have a myriad of interpretations within the confines of the score.  I'm not a Derrida deconstructionist, however, and don't think that the text (or the score, in this case) exists only as a means through which I can express myself.  For me it's about expressing the music, and the music is bigger than my little self.

[piazzo23]

If you think Mozart and Chopin are getting too big for their boots here, bear in mind the focus of the group, read somewhere else for a day and they won't know who they are or they'll think Beethoven is Furry Liza, DA DA DA DAAA and if they're female their fav piece will be moonlight sonata [but they might not have the Beethoven connection] - they won't know Rach from Bach etc etc. That should realign the position of the names a bit if it matters.

I know, but I didn't mean that.

Iīm trying to think of music as something unrelated to a particular person (composer, performer), not to diminish the hard work of those people, but in certain way to "deglobalize" (sorry) music.

We try to find music we feel identificated in some way. From that moment we hear it, we consider it as our music. But we talk about Chopin, Bach, Prokofiev, Ligeti; and we are in some way refering to us.

You know, when you say something about a composer you like, and then something about some composer you don't like. In some way youīre talking about yourself.

For instance, letīs suppose you really like Bach, so in your mind, youīre Bach. Not that youīre able to write like Bach or something. But youīre Bach.

If I tell you I donīt like Bach, itīll hurt you.

The same thing, if you really like Haydn, youīll defend some of his works you donīt like very much.

And if you donīt like the first you hear from some composer or performer, you won't put that person in a box labeled "I donīt like it".

Iīm trying to think other way, so it doesnīt affect me. Itīs difficult but I thinks itīs a totally different point of view to hear music, without having to think of that person. And to reject music we donīt like without feeling anything personal against the composer.

[leahcim]

Yeah, what you need is a language that doesn't have superlatives. You'll have a problem convincing people it's the best one though

[piazzo23]

Yeah, what you need is a language that doesn't have superlatives. You'll have a problem convincing people it's the best one though

I can write the whole post in spanish if you prefer 

[prometheus]

People need heros. So they elevate people to unreasonable hights.

Plus then there is the ridigness and conservatism of classical music and art culture.

[maxy]

To initial poster:  what you say makes no sense.  Concepts without substance.  What is pure music? Can it really be totally free once composed?   No.  Generating music implies some control of many parameters related to sound. Music is for the senses, so it is adressed to humans and animals... Why should we want to separate music from human beings??? 

[raffyplayspiano]

 

agreed.


raffy

[leahcim]

I can write the whole post in spanish if you prefer 

Spanish has superlatives though doesn't it?

What I meant was, most of the threads where the composer / performer stuff seems to upset people are those that ask superlative questions about them. I wouldn't take them too seriously, they shouldn't hurt anyone. I'd think if someone said "If I tell you I don't like Bach, it'll hurt you" they'd be talking about a "you" that had pretty low self-esteem.

"I'm playing a G7 Chord across 2 octaves with both hands at the moment - do you like G7?" "Noo, G7 is crap...I much prefer D" "Pah, I heard D last night, it's not as good as it used to be,"

[piazzo23]

Spanish has superlatives though doesn't it?

Yes, but it could be a little more understandable than my enligsh.

What I meant was, most of the threads where the composer / performer stuff seems to upset people are those that ask superlative questions about them. I wouldn't take them too seriously, they shouldn't hurt anyone. I'd think if someone said "If I tell you I don't like Bach, it'll hurt you" they'd be talking about a "you" that had pretty low self-esteem.

I understand. But then why all those posters were attacking Pies when he expressed that idea about Chopin?

"I'm playing a G7 Chord across 2 octaves with both hands at the moment - do you like G7?" "Noo, G7 is crap...I much prefer D" "Pah, I heard D last night, it's not as good as it used to be,"

Ok. Youīre right, it doesnīt have much sense, but G7 is not a human being.
I do not try to defend things, like my bed or my computer.

Although I know some friends that feel bad when you say something about things they have too.

But we all have the same G7 so thereīs no problem.

Conclusion: When itīs a thing, and we all have the same, it doesnīt hurt. 

I donīt think it has much to do with self-esteem. You know, when I finish a post or mail and it sounds a little like it could be taken badly and I didnīt have that intention, I always make a  or something.

Thatīs how sensitive could be people. And I donīt think Iīm the only one that could feel  bad about some answer. Text is so cold...

The same thing is with talking about things you feel related too.

Just what I think. (this phrase is for the same reason)

[piazzo23]

People need heros. So they elevate people to unreasonable hights.

Plus then there is the ridigness and conservatism of classical music and art culture.

I agree.

[piazzo23]

To initial poster:  what you say makes no sense.  Concepts without substance.  What is pure music? Can it really be totally free once composed?   No.  Generating music implies some control of many parameters related to sound. Music is for the senses, so it is adressed to humans and animals... Why should we want to separate music from human beings??? 

Thereīs so many things generated by humans implying some control of many paramaters related to senses. (Your TV, CD player, your operating system). But when already finished, youīre not thinking about the manufacturers.

I know, music is art, electrodomestics are not. But when children listen to Mozartīs 40th Symphonyīs Allegro,  they do not think about Mozart, or the conductor, or the orchestra.

When you pass certain adolescense age, you begin relating music with someone else than you, and that is some person you know (your girlfriend or boyfriend, a friend...), the composer, or performer.

You begin thinking personality is knowing what composer you like. You need to know what box is he in. But when you were a child, you didnīt need to do that. You could enjoy music the way it was, what it made you feel, yours, not "human" (to all people), neither from that "familiar" person, the composer, you donīt even know, and think you do by listening to his/her music.

I think I made my point clear this time. And it makes sense to me, thatīs why I wrote it.

I donīt usually write thinks like: "To survive we need to live".
Altough... it makes sense too, to live is a primary necessity. You just wonīt survive if you eat, breath and so but you donīt live.  (thatīs the reconciliation)

[thierry13]

Allways remember your mind is stronger than you. Just that.

[piazzo23]

Allways remember your mind is stronger than you. Just that.

But we could try to shut it off, like when children, in the moment we listen to music. Or when we see a work of art. And donīt think, why the hell did this fellow put bicycle wheels on the bottom of that poor...

Youīre right anyway. Itīs really hard to take youīre objective thinking out even for a moment.

Thatīs what Iīm talking about. Thank you!

[Siberian Husky]

i...am mexican

[piazzo23]

Ay am arshentain...