are you beautiful

[gorbee natcase]

 

[BoliverAllmon]

depends on who you ask.

[Bouter Boogie]

Errr.. If you say so? What am I? Lol..














By the way, it's 'beautiful' instead of 'beutiful'

[BoliverAllmon]

most here place you as aphroditie (sp?)

boliver

[BoliverAllmon]

but why do I feel that you already knew that? HHHHMMMMM.......

[Kassaa]

What is beutiful?

[gorbee natcase]

I was going to offer more choices say undecided, and gargoil, but it is a yes no answer (I have a dark sence of humour)

[stevie]

i am beautiful, very much so

[Siberian Husky]

someone here is fishing for compliments...


as for me im ugly as *** but god still loves me

[Barbosa-piano]

Same here...

[thalbergmad]

I am a  complete Neanderthal with a vicious temper, so i am definately in the ugly bracket.

[paris]

i feel like beautiful and i don't care what other people think about me.
people who're important to me think i'm beautiful. enough said.

[bernhard]

The question is misguided and misleading.

“Is the grass green?”

implies that “green” is a quality of the grass, when this is not at all the case. “Green” is simply a verbal label – a name – we give to the inner feeling (visual) we experience when we look at grass.

Likewise, “beautiful” is not a characteristic of objects/entities, but rather the name we give to the inner feeling we experience when we look at something.

To call someone beautiful does not really tell you anything about someone, but tells you a lot about the inner feelings the person doing the qualifying has towards someone.

To say: “So and so is beautiful” is ultimately a sentence with defective syntax. The correct use of language should be: “So and so, when I look at you I experience this overwhelmingly pleasant feeling, which I call beautiful”.

All adjectives (qualifying words) fall into that category.

Now if you read the numberless threads dedicated to bashing/canonising pianists/composers you can have quite a laugh by what the posters are revealing about their inner feelings, while believing they are qualifying the pianist/composer.

Hence the correct saying: “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”.

In the Universe everything is neutral. It is us who either like or dislike it.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[thalbergmad]

i feel like beautiful and i don't care what other people think about me.
people who're important to me think i'm beautiful. enough said.

You is

[xvimbi]

The question is misguided and misleading.

“Is the grass green?”

implies that “green” is a quality of the grass, when this is not at all the case. “Green” is simply a verbal label – a name – we give to the inner feeling (visual) we experience when we look at grass.

Your point is well taken, and correct, of course. However, "green" is indeed a property (quality) of grass. Grass is green, because it absorbs certain wavelengths of light, such that the remaining light has a wavelength distribution in the visible range that we call "green". So, it's not a feeling that we humans have towards grass, it's a physical property.  This physical property is quantifiable and independent of humans.

Now, deciding whether the grass is greener in my neighbors garden, that is getting us into the realm of emotions, because she happens to be quite beautiful

[pianistimo]

after looking at pics of helene grimaud and others, i have decided that i am not beautiful.  just good looking.  about an 8 on a scale of 1-10.  but, as others say, you deal with the cards you are dealt.  anyone can make themselves look better (by taking care of themselves, skin, etc)  or worse, by eating badly and not sleeping.   of course, there is plastic surgery.  but, BUT what if they botch the job.  or, if it's just not worth it.  with so many people getting plastic surgery you think you should look like everyone else and uniqueness is put into a category other than it should, imo.  i think women are much less visually oriented (not looking for perfection) than men.  symmetry seems to be important with modeling (at least that's what they say on tv).  if you are a 'normal' person, there are bound to be a few things about you that are slightly not exactly symmetrical.  for the people that try to fix all of the things they don't like about themselves with surgery, they end up with a boatload of pain.  i watched one show where a lady had a face lift, botox,  a chin implant, breast job, tummy tuck, liposuction and probably something else, and she was IN PAIN.  wonder if it was worth it afterwards.  what if you have to go back and do something over?  i'd rather be medium sized and happy (without the pain) than a pamela anderson (although who knows, she might be mostly real) and in pain all the time. 

to me, also, what is beautiful is the heart.  if you meet a semi-good looking person they are most attractive when smiling.  you can see a really beautiful person stuck on themselves and say 'yuk.' (at least women can).  although, self-confidence is nice. 

ps  i voted beutiful since it is not a word and might describe someone who's just good looking.  siberian husky and thalbergmad, feel free to change your vote.  you are beutiful.

[thalbergmad]

If you are 8 out of 10 i am 0.2

[bernhard]

Your point is well taken, and correct, of course. However, "green" is indeed a property (quality) of grass. Grass is green, because it absorbs certain wavelengths of light, such that the remaining light has a wavelength distribution in the visible range that we call "green". So, it's not a feeling that we humans have towards grass, it's a physical property.  This physical property is quantifiable and independent of humans.

Now, deciding whether the grass is greener in my neighbors garden, that is getting us into the realm of emotions, because she happens to be quite beautiful

Absorbing a certain wavelengths and reflecting a certain wavelength is indeed a property of grass (this could be argued though). However, the actual colour we call "green" is the result of the interaction of this reflected wavelength with our nervous system. As such, "green" exists only in our minds (after stimulated by a specific wavelength) and as such is completly personal and only knowable by the individual. Moreover, it is not comparable, so we have no idea if what I call green, is what someone else calls green. The only way to do such a comparison would be to experience someone else's consciousness.

Consider the following hypothesis. Everytime John looks at grass, he actually sees red. His nervous system when stimulated by the wavelength reflected by grass results in an internal mental (visual) experience called red. However, he is not aware of this, since this has been his experience since birth. Mind you, he is not daltonic. It is not that he cannot see green. In fact every time a fire engine goes by, green is the colour he sees.

As he learns to speak, he learns that grass is green and fire engines are red. Therefore he labels his inner visual experiences accordingly. So even though he looks at grass and sees "red", he learns to call that inner experience "green", even though it is red. And of course, he learns to call the colour he sees when he sees a fire engine "red" even though he sees "green".

When he is 18 he gets his driving licence, and he passes with flying colours, by stopping at a red light, even though he experiences it as "green". And he stops at the red light because he has been taught to stop at a red light, and red, is of course the word he uses for "green".

And this is the power and limitation of language. Language creates an illusion of uniformity of inner representations within human beings. There is no scientific test one could possibly devise to show that John has his inner experience of colours reversed. Language would muddle the issue every single time.

Yet, it is absurd to believe that every single human being experiences exactly the same inner representation when faced with the same stimuli. It is far more likely that we have different gradations of inner experience - perhaps not so drastic as John's.

And this for a pretty objective phenomenon as the result of a specific wavelength on one's consciousness.

Imagine how much more so hopeless is the situation when the concept is completely subjective and culturally ladden as "beauty".

This of course is the same old philosophical problem as "if a tree falls in a forest and there is no one around to hear, will there be a sound?" I happen to be on the side of the people who calim that there will be sound. Sure, there will be vibarations that will be picked up by apparatus palced nearby. But there will be no sound because I regard sound not as vibrations, but as the inner experience resulting from the stimuli of the vibrations. So to have sound you need both: vibrations and a nervous system to interact with the vibrations and produce a mental representation of it. If there is no vibration (as in the vacuum) or if there is no nervous system (as in Beethoven's ear), no sound.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

after looking at pics of helene grimaud and others, i have decided that i am not beautiful.  just good looking.  about an 8 on a scale of 1-10.  but, as others say, you deal with the cards you are dealt.  anyone can make themselves look better (by taking care of themselves, skin, etc)  or worse, by eating badly and not sleeping.   of course, there is plastic surgery.  but, BUT what if they botch the job.  or, if it's just not worth it.  with so many people getting plastic surgery you think you should look like everyone else and uniqueness is put into a category other than it should, imo.  i think women are much less visually oriented (not looking for perfection) than men.  symmetry seems to be important with modeling (at least that's what they say on tv).  if you are a 'normal' person, there are bound to be a few things about you that are slightly not exactly symmetrical.  for the people that try to fix all of the things they don't like about themselves with surgery, they end up with a boatload of pain.  i watched one show where a lady had a face lift, botox,  a chin implant, breast job, tummy tuck, liposuction and probably something else, and she was IN PAIN.  wonder if it was worth it afterwards.  what if you have to go back and do something over?  i'd rather be medium sized and happy (without the pain) than a pamela anderson (although who knows, she might be mostly real) and in pain all the time. 

to me, also, what is beautiful is the heart.  if you meet a semi-good looking person they are most attractive when smiling.  you can see a really beautiful person stuck on themselves and say 'yuk.' (at least women can).  although, self-confidence is nice. 

ps  i voted beutiful since it is not a word and might describe someone who's just good looking.  siberian husky and thalbergmad, feel free to change your vote.  you are beutiful.

If you are 8 out of 10 i am 0.2

Guys and girls, haven't you been listening?  

[maul]

Of course there is a "sound" Bernhard. Sound is just our word for when waves are produced from atoms interacting. Just as "light" is our word for photons interacting with them. Our brains just perceive them in our own way. You give the human race far too much credit to determine what exists and what doesn't. Waves, photons, and other elements all exist whether our little minds perceive them or not. The universe is far far greater and more vast than the human mind can ever comprehend. This is the same universe that created the human mind in the first place. We can only try to understand it and apply our method of communication to it. Yet some people think "oh, since there is no one there to witness it, it can't exist. How do we know if it exists if we can't see it?" Pretty ignorant and arrogant coming from a tiny organism that has been created by something it can't see or grasp; floating on a tiny piece of rock among a seemingly infinite universe.

[Siberian Husky]

i have an ugly personality...i am a lost soul with no direction


okay bible heads..this is your Q to preach to me about the wonders of jesus and the salvation he has in store for me..highest bidder gets to recruit me

[prometheus]

I have seen this discussion before. For some people 'green' is a property of an item that makes it reflect only 'green' light waves. To others green is the property of light only and the object only looks green.

It doesn't matter what language does or what inner colour is. If everyone calls the same light waves green and red the inner colour doesn't matter.


The poll is pretty clear to me. Of course the universe doesn't make beauty judgements. Now if beauty objectively exists is hard to answer. But if it doesn't we can still answer the question. There are some properties that most humans find beautiful. So we have a generalised beauty universal to all humans. Plus we have phi and symmetry.

It's not impossible to answer if you think other people find you beautiful. Well, not for everyone or in principle.

[Antnee]

I am so beautiful, its sickening...

Really, people start loosing thier lunch around me....

Disclaimer: I'm not that ugly... 

-Tony-

[pianistimo]

if what bernhard says is true, i have been seeing red in the wrong light.  of course, yellow is the same as green to me when i am driving.   now the electricity part is all wrong.  it's purely the moon.  there is a magnetic pull that is invisible to the naked eye.  when you look at the moon and then at an attractive person - they seem beautiful.  in bright sunlight, they simply look green, as bernhard says.  especially light skinned people.  much better at night. 

now, if you take a person like thalburgmad (who thinks he's .2) and compare him to someone who never gets out in the fresh air and won't take a walk under the moon and stars - they are worse than green.  they are pale yellow.  this is because of lack of fresh air and sunshine.  that is ugly.

for siberian husky, i would say ' beauty is as beauty does'  thus the biblical equivalent of God taking care of the sparrows.  if you emulate God, you can't go wrong.  He is the Master of beauty since he created it.  i've often wondered what sarah looked like (being that kings took a liking to her) - and also queen vashiti who was dismissed because she wouldn't walk out starkly without clothing.  of course, her replacement, esther, must have been pretty good looking too (being that she was a replacement).  the interesting thing is that all these women had more than beauty.  they had brains.  thereby rendering men incapable of doing anything less than their command.  yes.  there is a certain power to beauty.  i suppose that if God was playing a trick on anyone, it was on men.  of course, the reverse is also true when a woman meets agood looking guy. 

bernhard is probably right about beauty being in teh eye of the beholder.  maybe it's programmed into certain guys to like aspects of women taht resemble their mom?  wierd but slightly true.  i have scanned pics of my husbands mom and i look a little bit like her.  my sister in law reminds me somewhat of my mom.  suppose a study might reveal more of why men/women choose certain aspects of beauty over others.  in church i learned more about what makes people stay married longer.  it's seeing the inner beauty of your wife/husband as much as outer.  to appreciate anotehr person despite the flaws.

[Tash]

I am so beautiful, its sickening...

Really, people start loosing thier lunch around me....

Disclaimer: I'm not that ugly...

-Tony-

tony is so HOT right now!!

as for myself depends on what time of the day, and which day of the week you see me on, eg. sunday morning is probably not an attractice sight...actually even now, sunday arvo isn't a most attractive sight, messy hair, sitting in my mismatched trackies, giant socks and fingerless gloves...i'm so HOT right now hahaha

but like i once said in a pictures thread, you'd have to be pretty ugly to be ugly, and i haven't seen anyone here is quite repulsively ugly

[pianistimo]

how did that happen?  i accidentally quoted myself.

agreed with tash about nobody being really ugly.  it's all in the piano playing.  music makes people beautiful.

[e60m5]

I am beautiful no matter what they say
Words can't bring me down
I am beautiful in every single way
Yes, words can't bring me down
So don't you bring me do-*gets shot*

 

[Antnee]

I am beautiful no matter what they say
Words can't bring me down
I am beautiful in every single way
Yes, words can't bring me down
So don't you bring me do-*gets shot*

 

That's so Beautiful... Sniff, Sniff. 

 

-Tony-

[thalbergmad]

When i was born, the midwife slapped my mother.

[bernhard]

When i was born, the midwife slapped my mother.

Still, your case is not as bad as that of the guy, who, when he was born, was thrown in the bin while the parents lovingly cuddled the placenta...

[thalbergmad]

Thanks Bernhard.

Just dishing up the Sunday roast.

[pianistimo]

that's terrible.  some babies grow out of ugliness, you know.  my dad thought my son looked like winston churchill when he was born (i was appalled he said that) but it was sort of funny because he was bald for the longest time, and then his hair grew in only around the base at first.  he was fat (the fattest baby i ever saw).  now that he's sixteen and grown tall, he's got a good physique. is about 6 foot with very little fat. (never give up on the ugly babies - though every mom thinks her baby is cute.  i used to cover his baldness with all kinds of hats).

[gorbee natcase]

The question is misguided and misleading.

“Is the grass green?”

implies that “green” is a quality of the grass, when this is not at all the case. “Green” is simply a verbal label – a name – we give to the inner feeling (visual) we experience when we look at grass.

Likewise, “beautiful” is not a characteristic of objects/entities, but rather the name we give to the inner feeling we experience when we look at something.

To call someone beautiful does not really tell you anything about someone, but tells you a lot about the inner feelings the person doing the qualifying has towards someone.

To say: “So and so is beautiful” is ultimately a sentence with defective syntax. The correct use of language should be: “So and so, when I look at you I experience this overwhelmingly pleasant feeling, which I call beautiful”.

All adjectives (qualifying words) fall into that category.

Now if you read the numberless threads dedicated to bashing/canonising pianists/composers you can have quite a laugh by what the posters are revealing about their inner feelings, while believing they are qualifying the pianist/composer.

Hence the correct saying: “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”.

In the Universe everything is neutral. It is us who either like or dislike it.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

you are certainly on the ball on this one. I was being so general as to accetain what people would reply in responce, as I was not out to offend or bias I wanted to see how individual people reacted to the question and interpret I was even a little curious as to weather i would get slated for it. (human beings such gentle creatures, lol) but seriously If I say someone is beautiful I am not refering to one aspect weather it be physical or personality, I am simply mean are you beautiful ie kiwi fruit is not aestheticly beautiful but it tastes good so I would say it is beautifull, I is a gorbee natcase a blister even a touch of daring doo brevado I have spiwit

[jeremyjchilds]

I'm beautiful (in a handsome sort of way...)

[ako]

Still, your case is not as bad as that of the guy, who, when he was born, was thrown in the bin while the parents lovingly cuddled the placenta...

Bernhard, your humor kills me... I agree with another member that how good I look depends on what day it is or actually what time of the day it is and what I'm wearing...basically how I present myself.

[paris]

You is

 lol

[bernhard]

that's terrible.  some babies grow out of ugliness, you know. 

Newborn babies always resemble their grandfathers: bald, wrinkled and toothless. 

[-unavailable-]

I agree with bernhard it is someone elses oppinion whether someone is beutiful or not,and someones oppinion may not be the same as someone elses. Some people might think im ugly as heck while other people might think im the sexiest guy in the world.

[Waldszenen]

I'm fugly and I don't give half a crap.

[tds]

i like fugly people the same.

[klavierkonzerte]

people see you the way you see yourself i totally belive in that.

if you belive you are beautifull, act beautifull and have confidence no one would ever see you ugly

how are everyone suppose to see your beauty if you yourself don't see it.

[Kaylia_D.]

ha ha ..you guys are make me laugh! We may not all have symmetrical faces and bodies that society deems to be beautiful...but we all posses some quality whether inner or on the exterior that i should be considered beautiful 

[Kaylia_D.]

BTW sorry for the bad grammar in the previous post 

[Mozartian]

-

[rob47]

i'd say im more pretty than beautiful

[ted]

Some will have noticed that I have not posted on the forum for a week. I was so astonished by Bernhard's earlier assertions regarding the red/green qualia of colour perception that I had to look up everything I could find on it. I initially hoped that a cute argument might exist wherein I could assume a given person's colour qualia was continuous and homomorphic to another's. Then, I "seesaw by the neatlight of the liquor" that a brilliant application of something akin to the mean value theorem would show that all colour qualia are logically the same.

Alas no, it would seem that Bernhard really is right, both pragmatically and philosophically. The endless papers, theses and arguments go back at least to Russell (1926) (Russell is still wonderfully lucid and enjoyable to read, even if he is out of fashion) and beyond that, associations exist with Aristotle and Socrates. The subject of what we now call qualia is intimately tied to the mind/body problem and indeed, to the development of post-modernism, monism,dualism and practically every philosophical topic you can think of.

However, the disappointment of finding myself unable to construct a philosophical argument against Bernhard regarding colour is more than offset by finding the total subjectivity of meaning of musical sound, long a cherished warhorse of mine, amply reinforced by dozens of philosophers. 

[Siberian Husky]

i look like a posie

[Dazzer]

i'm ugly

-= sits at the fishing hole with rod in hand =- haha

[thalbergmad]

I have a sort of bulldog chewing a wasp look.

[Bouter Boogie]

Dunno what I am