How dangerous

[BoliverAllmon]

How dangerous would you say it is to play a Bach piece for college audition?

[prometheus]

Very. They might shoot you.

[BoliverAllmon]

oh really? (sarcasm is flowing)

[arensky]

Prometheus is right. And if they don't shoot you, Bach will!

[pita bread]

Yeah, Bach likes to reach up from the grave and pull the piano-bench from under the pianist.

[gorbee natcase]

Seriously I dont see any reason why not, why what are you thinking about and ,Bach articulatly brilliant, music too

[pita bread]

Humor and sarcasm aside, yes it is definately a good idea to perform Bach for auditions. He is the master.

[prometheus]

I don't get these topics. Why should judges condemn student pianists playing 'masterworks' not like a grandmaster pianist? Students already aren't allowed to play later Beethoven sonatas because it 'violates' them according to some. We can't play Mozart because it needs to be played 'perfect'.  Now Bach is off limits too?

Sure, playing Bach bad will hurt. But playing any piece bad will hurt. True, it will be harder to hide things when you play Bach (meaning, a famous work). But this can just as well be positive. Sure, playing obscure modern pieces will help you hide your inability to play them. If you really play them bad they may not realise because they don't know the piece.

Playing 'masterworks' shows taste in music. I don't see why playing 2nd rank or 3rd rank works is being humble towards the composers or something. It just tells people you don't know anything about music. The pieces you select tell a lot about your taste and view in music. You better select some good ones. If you select Beethoven Op. 49 No.1 or something because you are afraid to butcher the real sonatas then you are just stupid.

[BoliverAllmon]

I am not afraid to butcher the Bach. I am more curious how it is looked upon. I know that your faults are exposed mightily, therefore is the tradeoff worth it? Do judges enjoy listening to Bach or is it like the Appassionate? They have heard it too many times to get excited about it.

boliver

[prometheus]

If everyone heard all those famous big composers too much already why are they still the most popular? After all these years no one seems to get sick of them, especially Bach.

I don't know which Bach pieces are overplayed, probably the prelude fogue no.1 book I is one of them. Maybe no.24 book I too.

There is another big factor. Stand out. Really, mistakes standing out doesn't seem like a problem to me. But playing a WTC fugue the judges already heard thrice that day, thats not good obviously. Also playing three sets of preludes and fugues from WTC isn't a good idea either. Personally, I would play fugues only. No one does it because of some stupid tradition. Plus the fugues are better music anyway. You stand out instantly. If they are offended, I wouldn't want to study with such snobbish conservative people. Everyone knows Bach never intended them to be played in pairs. Fresh interpretation will help too. But only play it differently if you think its justified.

Maybe Busoni's transcriptions of the organ works are a good idea. Busoni's pianism is more brilliant than Liszt or Rachmaninoff. There are a lot of nice pieces here. I like BWV 639, but also the St. Anne BWV 522, BWV 564 is stunning too. Maybe even the famous fugue & toccata in D minor BWV 565. Everyone knows the first measure but I don't know if it's overplayed in churches or something, because I don't go there. Plus not very many people seem to care about Busoni, except the Chaconne.

So yeah, you should definitely avoid playing the warhorses/pieces everyone is going to play. But everyone is supposed to play Bach. So why not for a audition?

[BoliverAllmon]

thanks for the reply.

I have to play two contrasting pieces. I have a chopin waltz and looking for something different. It would have to be slower, softer, and lyrical. Thought Bach might be a good choice, but not sure.

boliver

[bernhard]

Both Scarlatti (e.g. k69 or k213) and Couperin have beutiful lyrical pieces that are well off the trodden path (and if you want to go really obscure, try Jacques Duphly).

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[BoliverAllmon]

what site has all those scarlatti midi's? I would like to check out those.

boliver

[bernhard]

what site has all those scarlatti midi's? I would like to check out those.

boliver

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4737.msg44794.html#msg44794
(Jacques Duphly)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,11466.0.html
(Scarlatti midis & Mp3)

[pita bread]

Why should judges condemn student pianists playing 'masterworks' not like a grandmaster pianist? Students already aren't allowed to play later Beethoven sonatas because it 'violates' them according to some. We can't play Mozart because it needs to be played 'perfect'. Now Bach is off limits too?

My sentiments exactly. Why shouldn't a student learn a late Beethoven if he/she wanted to? What's wrong with learning something you don't completely understand while you're young, when you'll have all the years ahead of you to grow old with the piece and let that bond mature like a good friendship?

[arensky]

Thank you pita bread,  I think you're dead on!

Where I live, all the teenagers are playing late Beethoven, and well. How are you ever going to understand something IF YOU DON'T DO IT!!!??? One of mine has joined the club, he's doing the 1st movement of op.111; if it doesn't work out, I'll take it away, but so far he's doing quite well
Why not let him try, instead of being a mother hen? I expect he'll have it ready by the spring.

[BoliverAllmon]

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4737.msg44794.html#msg44794
(Jacques Duphly)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,11466.0.html
(Scarlatti midis & Mp3)

thank you very much

[mrchops10]

There is another big factor. Stand out. Really, mistakes standing out doesn't seem like a problem to me. But playing a WTC fugue the judges already heard thrice that day, thats not good obviously. Also playing three sets of preludes and fugues from WTC isn't a good idea either. Personally, I would play fugues only. No one does it because of some stupid tradition. Plus the fugues are better music anyway. You stand out instantly. If they are offended, I wouldn't want to study with such snobbish conservative people. Everyone knows Bach never intended them to be played in pairs. Fresh interpretation will help too. But only play it differently if you think its justified.

You seem to be lifting an idea from Gould with this. Not that I don't respect Gould, he is maybe the greatest Bach player we have (on record). However, this particular opinion regarding the pairing, and differing quality, of the preludes and fugues is mostly bogus. At best, it is highly idiosyncratic, like his views on repeats in Bach. Unless you have a VERY specific reason to play a fugue alone, it is NOT a good idea. Does everyone really know Bach never intended them to be paired? If that's true, why did he so carefully contrast some preludes and fugues, why do some fugues contain important elements of the accompanying prelude, and vice versa? Why are the preludes even called that if they aren't a prelude to something specific? Chopin and his followers aside, prelude has a very specific meaning.

Before dismissing a several hundred year old tradition as "stupid," it's a good idea to look at it's merits. Wanda Landowska, Rosalyn Tureck, and probably Mendelssohn (?) played these works as pairs. In the end, as with all things, the proof is in the pudding. If you can make a fugue work without the prelude, (inferior pieces indeed! Try the eflat major "double fugue" prelude) go ahead. While you're at it, try "swinging" Beethoven op. 111. It really could work, I don't know, I've never tried it. But don't go degrading the accomplishments of Richter, say, who saw the preludes and fugues as inextricably linked, and still performed them brilliantly.

By the way, I don't think it is particularly "radical" or "daring" to reheat the opinions of a 60s-era pianist. I don't even think somebody as idiosyncratic and original as Gould would really appreciate it. People who get offended by breaches in tradition are not always "snobbish."  Usually those traditions have survived for a reason. I don't always go for the traditional approach in WTC, or anywhere else, but I at least try to understand it. Biting your thumb at authority just because its authority is anything but original, and usually it's pretty tiresome.

[pita bread]

Still doesn't mean you have to follow tradition. You're an artist, follow yourself. Who knows how it will turn out? Worst thing that can happen is that it turns out bad, and then you just try again with something different.

[BoliverAllmon]

I already tried once and it turned out bad. I am trying to avoid that again.

[BoliverAllmon]

what about the Allemande from the second english suite? would that work good or is it more impressive to bust out a prelude and fugue?

[prometheus]

What happened?

[amanfang]

I think Bach is a good idea for an audition, especially if you can play it well.  I know several people whose auditions went better because the judges were impressed with their Bach, and a friend who won a small competition playing Bach.  I think a lot of professors realize the complexity of Bach, and appreciate it even though it is not "sheer virtuosity."

[dmk]

I think playing Bach, particularly a fugue, demonstrates good control over the instrument.  Any classical pianist worth their salt, even if they do not perform it voluntarily or regularly, would be able to play a competent Bach

many/most of the better, maybe more prestigious is the better word, colleges will ask for a Bach. Many specifically ask for a P&F

For example:

USA
Curtis
Piano. Applicants will play from memory: (1) a complete work of J.S. Bach;.....

Julliard
A P&F from the WTC or another work containing a fugue....

AUSTRALIA
Sydney Conservatorium of Music
J. S. Bach: A Prelude and Fugue from the 48 Preludes and Fugues


FYI I know not ALL (like the RAM & RCM in the UK) ask for a Bach and the RCM in Canada merely asks for a Baroque composer, so please don't write back with a list of all the conservatoires/colleges which do not ask for a Bach!

[BoliverAllmon]

What happened?

I played a Haydn sonata first mvt. and a shostakovich prelude. They loved the prelude, but hated the haydn. I didn't play it fast enough and even enough. They didn't want anything out of the ordinary.

boliver