Nothing special

[ted]

Another poster, I think it was xvimbi, very rightly cautioned us about becoming too high and mighty concerning our music. Music and art are not exempt from the ordinary courtesies and manners of conversation. To take an example, my wife is supremely accomplished in knitting, tailoring, dress design, cookery and gardening. If I venture into the kitchen and ask what the spicy aroma is, if I query the extraordinary shape of a multiple cable stitch, if I ask what the peculiar plant growing outside the back door is, I do not expect a sarcastic and condescending response and indeed, I have never received one. In reciprocal fashion, if she, or anybody, makes a remark about the sound of my piano music I answer politely and factually.

It is this old fantasy of "Art" and "Music" with capital letters, somehow divorced from and above the real human world. The recent spate of posts about "non-musicians" sadly confirms that this outdated elitism is alive and well. To be able to express deepest thoughts in music or art is, or ought to be, the rightful possession of everybody, not the exclusive preserve of a few of us, immensely privileged by world standards, who take it upon ourselves to say our knowledge is the most precious variety.

When I was young I tended to do the same thing, fed by the traditional pompous load of historical nonsense about musicians. Working on the waterfront, in factories, in offices and seeing what people put up with in other parts of the world cured me of it in a big way.  Choosing to create in music does not make me any more special than the person who creates in the garden, knows how to repair a car or does any one of a thousand things I know sweet Fanny Adams about.

[pianistimo]

yes.  but, people like to discover new things or to disprove a point that someone has made 10 15- 100 years ago and make something new come to light.  this is done by reading a lot.  a lot of journals. then, you can walk up to your professor and say - 'i know something you don't know' (hahha - not really) and then have them slap you back with 'have you considered this source?  or, look here - and they show you you're wrong.' 

then you go back to the drawing board.  hoping to impress someone someday with something at least manageably related to the music you play.  and, for those people who are single and looking to hook up with a musician - what is to stop them from learning musicology like people learn jokes.

when you speak knowledgeably about a subject, your object of desire becomes dreamy eyed and thinks you know about the moon and the stars too.  (of course, there are some things that are strictly enjoyed by the eyes or the senses and they are probably AS YOU SAY ! the more beautiful. 

but, ted.  what if you meet a blind person?  what do you do then?

ps  to make my long winded paper about mozart cadenzas short and sweet - most people think that it is ok to just put in any old cadenza into mozart.  i am trying to say some are better than others.  and, also, at the same time, i wanted to show that mozart himself had specific ideas about what he wanted in his piano concerto cadenzas.  sometimes people just accept whatever is played.  when something doesn't sound quite right, there's often a reason.  the deeper you get into music, the more you can explain why something doesn't sound quite right.  for instance, i don't like really long cadenzas in mozart, or those that modulate a lot.  i don't like beethoven's cadenza for the 467 (or is it the 466?) even though it is played.  basically i like mozart cadenzas and wish that we could find those that went missing.  AND< i wish that people could compose cadenzas like the murray perahia cadenza.  badura-skoda's tend to be a bit longer, but i suppose that it depends on the size of the piano concerto too and trying to balance everything. 

last year i spent a lot of time listening to various cadenzas and piano concertos of mozart.  it was facinating for me because i never really did in-depth study of music.  i just accepted what other people did as right.  if they are pianists.  they're right.  well, sometimes you say, hmm - that's their tastes.  now i have more of my tastes (whether traditional or contemporary or a blend).   

[ted]

Pianistimo:

Sorry, it might be because I stayed up too late last night, but try as I may, I cannot see the connection between my post and your reply, even less the relevance of blind people and Mozart cadenzas. Are you sure you posted in the right thread ?

[maul]

Haha, I was just thinking that. Anyway, I totally agree with you. Some people just enjoy feeling superior to others, and it's sad really. Instead of helping, they must hinder. I've met many people smarter than I in certain subjects, and I've always asked them questions to which they responded politely to. I'm sure some people with knowledge in various areas all have the "superior" attitude, but it does definitely seem higher with those involved in music and art. I myself have never looked down on someone for asking me a stupid question about music. I realize that they obviously don't have the same understanding I do, so I try to convey it to them.

[xvimbi]

Ted, you expressed in an extremely eloquent and elegant way exactly what I alluded to in that other thread. I have to tip my hat. You always seem to "get it right"

PS: And you must really have a wonderful wife. Say hello to her from me

[Motrax]

This topic should be pinned, in my humblest of opinions.

Very nicely stated.

-M

[ted]

xvimbi:

Yes, she is also much braver than I. She left her family, country and cultural background of thirty-three years to embrace a life which must at times have seemed insuperably different. We celebrate twenty-five years together this Sunday, as it happens. Like me, she learns mostly through intuition rather than by rules. She seems to know how a dish was prepared and what ingredients were used without need of a recipe. There is a minor downside, in that on the occasions we eat out I consider the event successful if at least one dish passes muster with her.

[stevie]

Pianistimo:

Sorry, it might be because I stayed up too late last night, but try as I may, I cannot see the connection between my post and your reply, even less the relevance of blind people and Mozart cadenzas. Are you sure you posted in the right thread ?

hahaha, pianistimo is pianonut....go figure

[pianistimo]

read my lips.  (mouths:  "high and mighty is someone who insists on women performing one or two functions")

[ted]

Pianistimo:

Sorry, but you have really lost me altogether now.  Perhaps another poster can enlighten me concerning the relevance of Mozart cadenzas, blind people and distribution of tasks by gender to the gist of my original post. At the moment I cannot see that any connection exists.

[Siberian Husky]

yeah susan..what the *** are you talking about?

and i say this in the most politest fashion as not to get banned from PF just yet

[pianistimo]

i'm talking about alienating yourself from people just because you think that they are trying to be 'high and mighty.'  what if someone is just interested in a subject.  does that mean they are high and mighty.  i could call all my prof's high and mighty.  would that help me?  no.  they are smarter than i am and i can learn from them.  i already know enough about cooking, cleaning, and taking care of children, thank you.

as you get older, you learn to get along.  you don't alienate yourself (burning bridges). if everyone did that, they would have no friends.  are you saying that if someone is smarter than you, you won't associate with them?  that's crazy.  how do you learn?  always by yourself, i guess.

for me, i'd rather be around people smarter than myself.  it's more interesting.  of course, for me, it isn't that hard.  but, for you, ted (and you do sound smart) - i think you should just take information for what it's worth.  if you can use it...use it.  if you can't- let others use it.

[ted]

Pianistimo:

Thanks for your explanation but I now struggle to see how my original post advocated alienation in addition to the other three aforementioned topics. I referred not to intelligence, ability or learning per se, but to common courtesy and manners from one human being to another regardless of the field of interest. Knowledge of art and music does not give its bearers greater licence to make fun of people ignorant of these things than an understanding of growing turnips gives somebody a right to ridicule a person strange to the ways of the garden.

I know I sometimes struggle to put ideas into English but I had obviously not realised the extent of my ambiguity. I shall have to do better next time.

[pianistimo]

one of the things you learn in life is to take criticism.  i actively look for it.  not that i like to feel bad all the time, but usually smart people are also more critical.  you just take it with a grain of salt.

i understand what you are trying to say about your wife, being that she is willing to make sacrifices for you and be satisfied and at peace with herself.  perhaps some women should not try so hard (i fail to understand why you brought in your wife unless you weren't talking about high and mightywomen).  some women are just really curious and cannot control their urges to expand on the gardening, cooking, cleaning.

as a family grows and gets older - a woman has more of a chance not to sacrifice her husband and children on the altar of education.  (i am more traditional, too, in the sense that i like to take care of my own children - but i don't look down on people who work 1/2 day or even full time if their economic situation dictates). 

proverbs 31 is full of ideas of smart women.  i mean it even says "she considers a field and buys it" - so she might be a woman that likes real estate.  (if your wife enjoys taking good care of you instead - that's nice, though!)  there's other stuff too: she makes her arms strong.  who would have thought of that for a biblical idea?  she probably takes care of stuff that her husband can't get to.  and, she probably has a business (albeit home based - back in those days - and sometimes now). 

one thing i have noticed, is that there is less of a tendancy to lose one's mate to a workplace romance when there is a home business.  your family works together and there's no room for someone squeezing in and taking over the bigger part of one's day with their own needs instead of one's mate. 

you're probably going to say again - what does this have to do with high and mighty?  well, a lot because - you combined high and mighty with the humility of your wife.  i get the connection - yet, i was immediately drawn to the idea that you might not like smart women.  i'm just saying that i think women can be smart, too, but they don't have to flaunt it over men.  "the teaching of kindness is on her tongue."  your wife sounds kind.

[ted]

I am sure these miscellaneous points (Mozart's cadenzas, blind people, bright women, learning from criticism, workplace romances and biblical quotes) have much interest and are very genuinely expanded on, but they have absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread. The subject is very simple - whether or not music is an important enough pursuit to give its devotees the right to abandon politeness. I assert that it is not. If the particular example of my wife is not to your taste then substitute anybody - the professor, the doctor, the butcher, the shopkeeper or the man who empties the jumbo bin behind the factory. The particular occupation is immaterial.

[pianistimo]

i'd  rather listen to a 'high and mighty' musician than gather another recipie.  (*goes out in the backyard to garden and think of some other distraction to add to this thread)

on second thought.  let me have that recipie.  i'll talk to the musician later.

considers the difference between good recipies and bad recipies.  the good ones have little drops of ingredients spilled over the exact amounts.  you have to sort of guess and remember what exactly was it. two eggs or three?

ps  if you and your wife lived next door, i'd probably try to be her best friend.  it's just that my mom relys on my dad so much that if anything happened to him, she'd be lost.  i might, too, since my husband is really devoted (as you are to your wife) as well.  lately, he's been encouraging me to expand on my comfort zones.

[maul]

This thread is *** hilarious.

[ted]

Yes Ian, indeed it is. However, I think I have now ingested a surfeit of hilarity and all things considered, my withdrawal from the discussion is now propitious.

I don't suppose you'd care to take over the wheel would you ? The main thing is to keep pushing the accelerator even if we don't know where the car is going.

[pianistimo]

you know, it's funny, but i've listen to 'all things considered' on npr.  then, there's this saturday morning car show (car talk) where people call up and make noises to explain what the trouble is with their cars.  later on after that,  'from the top.'  now this is a 'high and mighty' show for little kids 6, 7, 8 - to young adult.  they play better than most of us, yet show very little difference from their peers in terms of just enjoying life and making the most of their music.

i think as one gets older, you think you have to act older.  be mature.  know so much.  when really, you should just play music, jam, and have a good time.  when people play the music IT IS much better than talking about it.  for me, i can't help thinking about music in many forms.  when i am not listening or playing, i like to discuss.  unfortunately, i am narrowing down my focus of discussable things to concertos this year and my family will soon tire of it.

[maul]

Nah ted, I think I'm going to get the hell outta here. The car appears to be spinning out of control with an imminent crash approaching.