hurricane katrina

[pianistimo]

i was going to name my second child 'katrina' but changed to 'alexis.'  i'm glad about that now.  but, i can see girls names for hurricanes.  take a look at the bedroom floor after a search for something to wear.  ?!

hope this hurricane doesn't demolish too much.  or, anything, preferably - but it does look pretty strong.

[pianohopper]

I heard a story about a woman who gave birth during the storm, so she decided to name her daughter Katrina -- much better than Lashandra, I thought.

[quote author=pianistimo link=topic=12103.msg127606#msg127606 date=1125266094

hope this hurricane doesn't demolish too much. or, anything, preferably - but it does look pretty strong.

As I guess everybody's heard, it is pretty bad.  It demolished basically everything in New Orleans, homewise.  My family is from down there, and some were staying, but phone lines are down, so we don't know exact details.  (Ham radio operators are relaying information for the Red Cross, I think.)  It will be at least 2 months before school is able to start over again. 

I find myself worrying about the French Quarter.  It is such a wonderful place, if anybody has been there they will know.  Anybody had fresh beignets at Cafe du Monde?     Fortunately I heard there hasn't been too bad damage in that area, but it's historical, and so maybe the buildings are weaker.

The fly-over pictures are just shocking --- entire neighborhoods swamped, with just the rooftops sticking out.  The Lake Ponchartrain Causeway is out, and it is the longest free-standing bridge in the country, maybe even the world, I believe. 

The dangerous part for people staying there has become, not only the germs in the water, but the looters.  For one, the sewers must have backed up unbelievably -- they never had good sewer systems.  Then there's all the DEAD BODIES floating around, that also is contamination.    But now people have gone crazy stealing stuff, which could have been predictable seeing all the rich people left at first notice.

Insurance claims are expected to be over $25 billion dollars!!!!  And hundreds, maybe thousands dead.  National Guard deployed forces are about 21,000 strong.  Mainly they are there to rescue stranded survivors and try to stop looters. 

I do not usually pray.  But I am now, for normalcy and life to go on.  For all the displaced people to find comfort and temporary solace.  For my family and all the other families who have lost their houses and property to get compensated. 

I know it will never be the same as it was.  Perhaps the cycle will continue until what was is forgotten.  But I hope they can all rebuild shadows of a former lifestyle, at least.

[pianistimo]

i'm very sorry to hear that your family was affected!  prayer and genuine help is always appreciated, it seems.  i am amazed at what the coastguard and people in the red cross do (and others).  very selfless.  i know not all are praying for themselves, so i pray for them that they are protected while they rescue people.  it's crazy, the things that they are now showing on tv - as you mentioned (all the flooded areas).  what's scarier, also, is that it could happen to any one of us at any time from any situation (wind, fire, terrorism, etc).  knowing that people care makes a big difference.  it must take a long time to recover from this kind of damage - but, not impossible. 

ps  i decided a while back to send all my insurance papers, copies of social security numbers, and stuff like that to a second party - so that, in case of some catastrophe, i would have back up copies.   

[llamaman]

I track this storm. As soon as a storm is forecast to become major, I track it. I can't believe the snobbiness of some people. My god, if a huge hurricane is coming your way, you should not stay in the path of it. You would think they had learned their lesson from hurricane Camille.

[goansongo]

It seems like the majority of people that lived there were black...  Is this correct?  Just wondering because you see a whole lot of black people and only a few white people.

[Siberian Husky]

well its the "dirty" south

[abell88]

It seems like the majority of people that lived there were black...  Is this correct?  Just wondering because you see a whole lot of black people and only a few white people.

Apparently there is a small, rich area of New Orleans which is mostly white; the majority is black and poor -- many with no cars, no money for hotels, etc.

[leahcim]

It seems like the majority of people that lived there were black...  Is this correct?  Just wondering because you see a whole lot of black people and only a few white people.

Racist weather now?

[prometheus]

All the rich people got out. So the black people are left.


New Orleans must be one of the most embarresing moments in US history. It shows how retarded US society is. On points like government structure, class structure, government priorities, gun laws, corruption, crime, drug policies, enviromental and ecological issues etc. This could never happen in Europe, ever. Maybe it could not even happen in Cuba.

Some of those black people can't even speak english. My father thought they were immigrants from south america that can speak spanish or portuguese. Seems they haven't even learned one language.

Even the major speaks like a MTV ganster, I thought he would beat up Bush instead of talking with him. Actually, this may be a good point because they don't have some elite rich kid as Bush as major but actually a real person. But it's still funny.

The US is half third world country, half superpower.

[leahcim]

Yeah, we don't have criminals or looters here in Never Never land..none of those Europeans don't speak English...places like Moss Side and the East End are full of sweet loverly people, salt of the earth types and cockerny sparrows. Literacy is through the roof - our wallets are bulging, whatever colour you are.

Did we ever get that sarcasm smiley?

[prometheus]

It gets a lot worse if everyone has a gun. Which they actually have to shoot the cops or the police, according to the constitution. And find me a european city with as much crime and poverty.

I am not saying the US is a bad country. I am saying that the US is two countries. A good one and a bad one. And this disaster clearly shows all the sides of the bad half.

[leahcim]

It gets a lot worse if everyone has a gun. Which they actually have to shoot the cops or the police, according to the constitution. And find me a european city with as much crime and poverty.

Which tabloid is this?

Everyone doesn't have a gun. Not even close. There are plenty of guns here if a place loses law and order. I recall people fighting over bread in supermarkets the last time a couple of vans parked to dispute petrol prices - and that wasn't anything like a disaster. Let's not kid ourselves that we're any more or less civilised.

As for crime and poverty it's everywhere I've ever been.

[llamaman]

They shot those looters didn't they?

[leahcim]

They shot those looters didn't they?

I think some of it's overstated - sure there are the opportunists looting shops for TVs etc but that's not an New Orleans invention.

It seems there are also aid workers getting legitimate supplies [and unofficial folk getting necessities rather than TV sets and hi-fis] that have been mistaken for looters - well I guess technically the latter are, but what are they to do if they need food etc and the shop keepers have deserted the place?

Quite a bit on wikipedia about it.

[prometheus]

Well, I don't live in the UK. No things like that don't happen here. Maybe I was wrong and the UK is just as bad. But then again the UK isn't a socialist country.

I never read a tabloit. The US constitution gives people the right to bear arms to protect themselves against their own government.

Apperently you cannot enter the city without a weapon. At least not last night. The New Orleans police broke down and those people are looting too, because they have to.

[leahcim]

No things like that don't happen here.

Right, all those bikes are left unlocked because there's no crime.

AMSTERDAM — Twelve people who were present during the riot at the Feyenoord-Ajax football match in April have turned themselves in to the authorities.

They were among the 17,000 mobile phone owners who received an SMS on Tuesday asking for their cooperation in identifying the rioters.

The mobile phones were logged as being in the area where football fans fought with police.

5 April 2005
AIVD to investigate rise of right-wing Dutch youth

Lonsdale ... 'Let us Dutch people gradually eliminate the immigrant together'?
Police and security service AIVD are to investigate extreme-right youth, many who wear Lonsdale clothing, as police spark concern over the radicalisation of Dutch teens. The Cabinet wants to know how violent or dangerous these groups are, Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner says. The latest incident saw teens dressed in Lonsdale clothing clash with Turkish immigrants in Venray on 2 April. The city council later bans several demonstrations to ward off renewed violence. In Uden, police arrest four youths following an arson attack in March at a local Islamic primary school. Despite the flash points, anti-Islamic violence has gradually declined since a sudden rise after the murder of Theo van Gogh last year.

Hilversum is stunned by the deaths of five members of a local family in a murder-suicide. A 46-year-old traffic officer with the national police force KLPD shot and killed his 42-year-old wife with his service pistol in the family home, before killing his three sons, aged eight, six and three. He then turned the gun on himself. The family was buried on 23 April at the cemetery Begraafplaats St. Barbara. Police say "a complex of factors" in the "private life" contributed to the tragedy.

Anti-social tenants face life in 'container homes'

Government and opposition MPs are teaming up in a legislative bid to house anti-social tenants in special iron huts to reduce city disputes and prevent people from being forced onto the street. The plan from the Christian Democrat CDA, Liberal VVD and opposition Labour PvdA is focused at troublesome tenants who have long been a nuisance factor. This is the first time that such a plan is being discussed on a nation-wide basis.

Sounds loverly. Especially these anti-social tenants, Americans are they?

....shall I go on, or is the fantasy coming to a close?

[diegosmom]

So is most everybody on this forum from Europe then? I wasn't aware of that.

[prometheus]

Do you want to compare those very minor incidents to what happens in New Orleans right now?

You are really embarrasing yourself right now. How do the things I said have anything to do with there being no crime at all in europe. I am talking about the total failure in the US.

Do you actually know what happened in New Orleans? Did you see what I said? "government structure, class structure, government priorities, gun laws, corruption, crime, drug policies, enviromental and ecological issue, etc" I am not just talking about crime.

Actually, I keep my bike unlocked. But that has nothing to do with this.

[jeremyjchilds]

This is a very sad week...

But according to our propaganda-infused canadian media...it must somehow be all Bush's fault...

[llamaman]

Well, he could at least send a few people to help drain it. If help doesn't come soon, some of it might be declared a dead zone.

[prometheus]

He cut the dikes money in half while experts were already screaming out loud that something needed to be done otherwise the city would be gone if it got hit by a hurricane.

My country is largely below sea level so we have the best specialists in the world. Several people went to the NO area to look how bad the water managment there was. They knew this was going to happen. Bush was also told. He knew thousands of people were going to die and he knew 7 days ahead that NO was going to get hit.

Also compare the rescue effort to the one in NY on 11/9. Totally opposite. The one in NY was a first world rescue operation. The one in NO is a third world rescue operation.

I am not sure who should have organised the whole thing. Apperently because of the state government vs federal government problem no one knew who was in charge so no one did something.

Plus that most of the people in NO are second rate citizens. Seems people are brave saving white laywers and economists in NY but no one wants to safe black drug addicts. Notice how they gave tourists and guests of big expensive hotels priority.

[jeremyjchilds]

He cut the dikes money in half while experts were already screaming out loud that something needed to be done otherwise the city would be gone if it got hit by a hurricane.

My country is largely below sea level so we have the best specialists in the world. Several people went to the NO area to look how bad the water managment there was. They knew this was going to happen. Bush was also told. He knew thousands of people were going to die and he knew 7 days ahead that NO was going to get hit.

Also compare the rescue effort to the one in NY on 11/9. Totally opposite. The one in NY was a first world rescue operation. The one in NO is a third world rescue operation.

I am not sure who should have organised the whole thing. Apperently because of the state government vs federal government problem no one knew who was in charge so no one did something.

Plus that most of the people in NO are second rate citizens. Seems people are brave saving white laywers and economists in NY but no one wants to safe black drug addicts. Notice how they gave tourists and guests of big expensive hotels priority.

If that;s true, then that is pretty sad...

[prometheus]

Well, those experts also say thet everywhere around the world everyone laughs at the dutch dike obsession. The dutch expert, supporting his american collages, told that they were also laughed away. So it's not just an american thing. But everyhing that went wrong together, is. It's not just an issue of dikes, but also of bring back the swamps so the water has a somewhere to go. The swamps were all removed to make place for oil industry.

In Europe there were also floods, germany, switzerland, and some other countries. A few years ago they promiced to fix it by giving rivers more space and creating swamps. This has not been done. In my country we did do this and it can still go wrong.



You see this is a pretty poor situation. Inbetween a huge river and a lake and very close to sea in a hurricane heavy area.

Bush also refused to sign Kyoto. The water in the bay of Mexico is very hot, 28 degree s celcius. The hotter the water, the stronger the hurricane. So there will be strong hurricanes in the future.

[pianohopper]

Now, many people have been complaining about the poor response to help.  But if you think about it:

1) Nobody could get in to help while the hurricane was on, or the helpers would become victims themselves.

2) 9/11 was a first-world rescue effort because the police, firefighters, etc., were still in the city and could get around easily.  Plus, this was just in one concentrated spot.  New Orleans is a huge place.  It's not that simple to stop looters and rescue people immediately when they could be anywhere. 

Well, I don't live in the UK. No things like that don't happen here. Maybe I was wrong and the UK is just as bad. But then again the UK isn't a socialist country.

I never read a tabloit. The US constitution gives people the right to bear arms to protect themselves against their own government.

Apperently you cannot enter the city without a weapon. At least not last night. The New Orleans police broke down and those people are looting too, because they have to.

Now, people in the city were allowed to steal food and water.  But there are the lunatics who broke into Wal-Marts and stole guns.  These people are insane --- firing at the same people who are trying to help them.  Fortunately, nobody has been killed yet.  But Charity Hospital had to stop evacuating patients by helicopters because the bastards were shooting at them as they left.  And what does being a socialist country have to do with anything? 

Well, he could at least send a few people to help drain it. If help doesn't come soon, some of it might be declared a dead zone.

Not that simple, Llamaman.  Before you can drain it, you have to patch up all the burst levees and canals.  More than a few people are needed.  I am not sure how they drain the city --- but it will take a very long time to drain. 

[leahcim]

You are really embarrasing yourself right now. How do the things I said have anything to do with there being no crime at all in europe. I am talking about the total failure in the US.

You didn't say much at all, just a list and then said it wouldn't happen in Europe. Much of your list simply does apply to places Europe - especially drug laws, class, guns, poverty, crime etc. Mebbe you should rewrite it saying what you meant?

I'm not embarrassed. As you showed, you don't know much about Europe at all - once the UK was mentioned - which is part of Europe - you back-pedalled and decided it didn't count because it wasn't "socialist" - are those right-wing teens in my "minor" list socialists?

Is setting fire to a school "minor"? Is someone shooting 4 or 5 people, including children "minor"? Where did he get the gun - was it issued by the great socialist state? I'd suggest if the average European had your attitude towards _deliberate_ loss of life in the event of a disaster the situation will be far worse.

When you expanded your comments you emphisised mainly the gun constitution in the US - these weren't introduced by Bush and claimed that "Everyone has a gun" - those statements were false - if you're not  blushing with embarrassment perhaps you're used to telling lies? Perhaps you should look at few more European countries too, just in case there's one that has lots of guns [hint : there is]

What happened in New Orleans is called "weather" Look at history and you'll see that there's been plenty of it and much of it far worse. If you read some of the news reports you'll see restaurants were talking about reopening a day or 2 afterwards - clearly it was far worse than some expected, and I wouldn't be surprised at all that many people stayed for reasons other than poverty and the colour of their skin. There is racism, black people and poverty in Europe too - perhaps not in your street, but there is.

Is Fats Domino a poor black man?

What the people are doing w.r.t anti-social behaviour during the disaster is very likely to happen in places in Europe - as my list showed, and it was just a few examples of anti-social behaviour because you played the "UK doesn't count" card - you have people so anti-social in your country they riot at sports events and you're proposing to move some people to special iron huts because they are too anti-social when the sun is shining [we are talking about it here too AIUI] A few of those "minor" events were race-related too, because I got the impression you might have been critisising the American treatment of blacks - that wouldn't happen anywhere near us, as you said - oh no. Never.

Do you think they will sit back if a disaster hits, listen to the radio and await instructions? Or just do something "minor" like shoot 4 people and set fire to a school

As for the further Bush comments - how would signing Kyoto have changed the climate last week or even changed it at all? It's largely a fop to the issue. Hurricaines are a lot older than the lastest political fad.

Could they have done more etc etc? Quite possibly, but maybe not so much as the gift of hindsight suggests.

[llamaman]

Pinaohopper, you have a point. I completely overlooked that.

[pianohopper]

Update:  CNN reports that two major fires have broken out on the waterfront.  Disastrously, the fires cannot be fought because, although there is much water in the city, none of it is pressurized.  Attempts to use fireboats and water tankers were unsuccessful.  "Fifty-foot flames also engulfed an industrial district along the Mississippi River and threatened to spread from warehouse to warehouse. "

The fires were probably started by looters, whether intentionally or accidental.  " Earlier, a CNN crew saw looters leave the mall carrying filled Gucci and Brooks Brothers bags." 

In times of disaster, there is always an opportunity for criminals. 

[dinosaurtales]

I totally can't believe some of you guys think it's actually Bush's fault!  I can't imagine hating anybody bad enough to actually think they cause bad weather!

[llamaman]

No, its because of global warming over the last few years. Look at this list of Cat 5 Hurricanes since data began being recorded in 1851:

Rita-2005
Katrina-2005
Emily-2005
Ivan-2004%
Isabel-2003
Floyd-1999
Lenny-1999
Mitch-1998
Georges-1998
Andrew-1992%
Hugo-1989
Gilbert-1988%
Gloria-1985
Allen-1980%
David-1979%
Anita-1977%
Edith-1971%
Camille-1969%
Beulah-1967%
Betsy-1965
Cleo-1964
Hattie-1961
Carla-1961
Donna-1960
Ethel-1960
Cleo-1958
Carrie-1957
Janet-1955%
Hazel-1954
Easy-1951
Dog-1950
Miami-1947
Long Island Express-1938
Long Key-1935%
Galveston-1932
Lake Okeechobee-1928
Indianola-1886

And that's all folks. Hmm......it doesn't seem as though there were many Cat. 5 hurricanes until 1954, when names started to be used.........wonder why that could be 

A few of these made landfall as category 5's. They are marked with a %.

Hmm....there seems to be a lot, now what years are they spread across, late 60's, early 70's. The year of the strongest la nina.

On a sidenote, 10 of these storms were borderline, meaning they had speed of 155 mph, that were recorded.

[prometheus]

In most European countries to poor people weren't utterly defeated in the class war. And we also didn't import slaves to work on cottage farms. The US has a racist heritage. Sure, Europe does have less big cities so the problems are smaller, but they did try and battle them while poor people are largely ignored in the US.

I didn't say everyone has a gun in the US. Well, I did say it but obviously that isn't what I meant. Depending on the state it is very easy to get a gun in the US. Did you say those looted Wal-Mart's had guns in them? It's not the same in every country in Europe but in my  country it is totally insane to sell weapons in a normal shop.

Also, the US has this 'get what you can get' attitude. Very different from what people think here. There is also less respect for the law and less trust in the government. Europe is more socialistic and the US more liberal so in our country the government is more active in protecting the citizens. If a disaster happens people know, or believe, they will get help. So they don't get desperate.

There also isn't a state government vs federal government problem in any European country. This doesn't mean it will be clear who is in charge in all cases but it will be a lot more clearer.

Europe signed Kyoto. The US did not. Sure, Kyoto wouldn't have prevented this hurricane. But Europe is doing something. The US is ignoring the problem. In the US the government still claims that scientists don't know for sure if the greenhouse-theory is correct. They also don't mention it in official documents. In Europe we think we know the theory is correct, or we assume it is. And we act on it. Don't tell me there isn't a difference here.

Most European countries don't have an army in Iraq and afghanistan. Surely, the pressure on the military is a lot less with the exception of the UK.

All the things that made this disaster worse are less in Europe. I never said Europe is perfect. I said this disaster shows all the things that are wrong in the US. I didn't say that this disaster shows all the things that are perfect in Europe. I did say this wouldn't have happened in Europe.

Crime, it is off the scale in New Orleans. Murder is 10 times higher in NO than the US average. So there are about 50 times more murders in NO than in average in Europe. Sure, its not a very fair comparison but it does show how bad it is in NO. The relation between poverty and crime does not have to be proven, right? If this disaster happened in Florida it would have been less worse. Florida's murder is about average for the US.


Let me clear up some stuff. I don't believe Bush controls the weather.

Leahcim those are incidents. The fact that this policeofficer went insane and killed his wife and children with his police side-arm (thats where he got it, though he took it home illegally but after this incident more control was put in place) doesn't mean crime is as bad as in New Orleans. The murder rate before the incident in that town is probably below 1 in 100,000 while in NO it is about 50 in 100,000.

When those teenagers set that school on fire, at night, I am not sure if you think they all got killed, a few classrooms burned out, this was major news. This is unheard of. We don't have gangs and ghetto's like in NO. They probably don't even have schools in ghettos.

I don't see what the ideology of those teenagers have to do with it. Actually, our secret service did research and those teenagers aren't even right wing, they are fucked up. Actually, I don't really agree with that but the government doesn't see them as extreme right wing.

I don't see why Bush should have written the US constitition for my point to be made. It's not like Clinton cared much more about these problems. There isn't really a difference. I don't have anything against Bush, I don't have to blame Bush personally.

What happened in New Orleans is called "weather" Look at history and you'll see that there's been plenty of it and much of it far worse.

1) Nobody could get in to help while the hurricane was on, or the helpers would become victims themselves.

2) 9/11 was a first-world rescue effort because the police, firefighters, etc., were still in the city and could get around easily.  Plus, this was just in one concentrated spot.  New Orleans is a huge place.  It's not that simple to stop looters and rescue people immediately when they could be anywhere.

They had 7 (seven!) days to prepare a resque. They knew NO would be flooded. They knew everyone had to be evacuated. They also knew the crime rates in NO and that it would become chaos. There is always looting when a place in evacuated, in Europe also. But leaving all the criminals in NO to die and loot and destroy the city when you have 7 days to prevent that then something went really wrong.

In times of disaster, there is always an opportunity for criminals.

Thats my point. NO just had so many of them.


I also don't see what Fats Domino has to do with it. Tiger Woods is insanely rich, Domino probably isn't even rich. So there are no poor black people in the US? The gap between rich and poor in the US is a lot bigger in the European average. If it wasn't the problems in NO would have been less because there would have been less crime. So the disaster in NO shows this problem.

[dinosaurtales]

No, its because of global warming over the last few years. Look at this list of Cat 5 Hurricanes over the past 50 years due to warm water:

Katrina-2005
Emily-2005
Ivan-2004
Isabel-2003
Floyd-1999
Mitch-1998
Andrew-1992
Hugo-1989
Gilbert-1988
Gloria-1985
Allen-1980
David-1979
Anita-1977
Edith-1971
Camille-1969
Beulah-1967
Betsy-1965
Hattie-1961
Carla-1961
Donna-1960
Ethel-1960
Janet-1955

I will add more, and go up to the last 100 years, later. Notice any patterns?

looks to me like there are 4 or 5 nasty ones in a short period, followed by a few years off, followed by 4 or 5 nasty ones, etc.  ?    I think it's always been warm in the Gulf

[TheHammer]

Prometheus, although I quite agree with your general statement, your argumentation includes several mistakes, or at least weak points...such as:

And we also didn't import slaves to work on cottage farms.

Obviously not... well, I assume you didn't, and I did neither. Nor did European countries to a very large extent. BUT "THE AMERICANS" DID NOT DO THE LIKE IN THE PAST CENTURY AS WELL. So, what's your point? Germans killed 6 million Jews, so we have an anti-semitic heritage? From which follows...what? Completely pointless.

There also isn't a state government vs federal government problem in any European country

Dude, that's so wrong... Germany just has re-elections in two weeks because of EXACTLY this problem. Our school system is said to be mediocre because of this problem, etc.

Europe is more socialistic and the US more liberal so in our country the government is more active in protecting the citizens.

I think in the US liberal and socialistic mean about the same (in contrast to Europe, where "liberal" is applied to describe a very free handling of the market by the state. Anyway, most recently, European states have become much more American in this respect, so I wouldn't be so proud about it...

They had 7 (seven!) days to prepare a resque. They knew NO would be flooded. They knew everyone had to be evacuated

I don't think they had seven days to prepare. Katrina came in to existence August 24th and hit 29th... and it wasn't quite predictable up to two days beforehand. Even then... the situation in NO at least would've probably not been so bad if this levee didn't break.

Again, I think the US government made quite some mistakes, the situation is pretty miserable, and if there is only a slight proof for discrimination going on (I don't think so for now), then that is outrageous.
I wouldn't blame Global Warming as much as human impact on the Mississippi Delta, destroying natural protection against a flood. But I think you are still right...Global Warming is an issue, it MUST be an issue, because mankind has recently (last three centuries) burnt most of all fossil fuels into the air there are on this planet, so we are quite likely to have induced *some* change in weather.
Same with oil by the way. If I am unlucky enough to live as long, I will probably be able to see earth being pumped out of it. We are already facing a probable energy crisis RIGHT NOW, because of our much too strong depence on it... so don't whine about high prices (which are higher in Europe anyway... 1,40€/litre in Germany, if you want to know) and...oh, wait, I disgress...sorry.

Anyway. I need this controversy-thing. 

[gilad]

On the race question there i hear that 67% of New Or. is black.
I saw on Skynews that their are a lot of black oragnistions taking up issues about the media coverage being given to the situation,
Their one representative showed two different papers with one showing a picture of black man carrying a bag walking chest deep in water, the caption read: a man after LOOTING a store.
Then the other showed two white folks in the same situation and the caption read " two people ......... after FINDING food in a store.
anyway, food for thought.

[leahcim]

I also don't see what Fats Domino has to do with it.

https://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168254,00.html

I didn't say everyone has a gun in the US. Well, I did say it but obviously that isn't what I meant.

Fair enough, that was funny and the world needs comedians.  I'll ignore the other stuff you obviously don't mean in this post too and call it a day

[leahcim]

On the race question there i hear that 67% of New Or. is black.

Yeah, it's roughly 67% black - The poverty level is around 25% individuals / 14% households.

"Poverty level" isn't a very good stat to compare across countries though - because it takes into account the general level of wealth and most would probably agree that being "poor" in some countries is better than others - but if you're interested look up the similar povery stats in Europe.

But UK kids :-
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4123676.stm

Better in .nl, around "the middle of the range" according to this
https://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050821/ap_on_re_eu/netherlands_hidden_poverty

Eurostat should have the figures.

[leahcim]

Obviously not... well, I assume you didn't

No slavery in Europe? Eh? Pity it was such a loaded sentence - it might as well have said "We didn't import slaves to paint Spiderman models", remove the conditional and well, FFS, we ran the #$%# place when there was slavery, let alone having it here

It still goes on today as well in good ole, wouldn't happen here Europe

[llamaman]

It looks like that yes, but what I was pointing out, is when there were high levels of pollution, the number of hurricanes was greater. Also, There is currently a voracious TD swirling around near Cape Verde. Following the same path as Andrew unfortunately. Looks like we may have another Cat. 5. Also, if you were to look at the weather records for the years with lots of strong storms E.g. 1999, You will notice a strong prominence of El Nina.

[prometheus]

The first point was actually meant to be the other way around. It isn't fair to compare rascism in europe and in the US to each other because they are totally different situations. I used 'we' because 'we' actually bought them in Africa and sold them in the US. In some sense I am rich at expense of what happened in NO, but it could only happen there.

I wasn't aware that this problem was that big in Germany. I do know they have this very fragmented structure. But in the US almost all governing is done on state level. I didn't mean to say that a similar problem doesn't exist in Europe but not to the extent as in the US? Right? This goes for all the points, some people are using straw man here. All the things that were wrong in NO are also problems in Europe. Except the problems are a lot less than in NO.

Let me rephrase the statement I made so it doesn't harm any nationalistic feelings that block the brain. It wouldn't have happened in the majority of the western cities.

I looked to check it and the hurricane was registered on the 23th. The expert on TV said they could have knew a very strong hurricane was going to hit in the area 7 days before it happened. I do not know what the basis for this was. Its probably the development from Katrina from tropical strom into a hurricane.

Yeah, there is an energy problem. Also, its 1,55 euro for a litre here, still too cheap because everyday there are traffic jams all over the place.

[leahcim]

The first point was actually meant to be the other way around.

Is there a handbook to accompany these that explains the process?

You could write a piano book - they seem to go like that

"Chapter 3 : Twist your arm towards your body - I call this jigging your arm. Now pronate your arm in the other direction - I call this jogging. At the same time your elbow moves in a semicircle. Fingers are held like a spider, which I call jabbing fingers - compare with Boggle fingers, flat fingers, tickle fingers and stabbing fingers in the exercises in Chapter 2....."

Chapter 4: "Review Chapter 3 before playing this chopin extract in Fig 1 by jigging then jogging with tickle fingers extending to boggle and, to release, quickly pronate your supinated hand whilst ending with a stabbing finger motion - take care to relax throughout....Fig 2 is similar, except the left hand jiggle needs to boogie [See chapter 1] to reach the octave. A sonorous legato tone is achieved in the last measure by using a careful splutter on the last beat of the previous measure"

Errata : Due to a few errors that weren't caught in time for press please note the following

Chapter 4: When I said jigging then jogging, of course I meant jogging then jigging. You splutter before jigging [which is now jogging] to play staccato not legato. There's no such thing as boogie at all. Fig 1 is by Beethoven.

[pianohopper]

I totally can't believe some of you guys think it's actually Bush's fault!  I can't imagine hating anybody bad enough to actually think they cause bad weather!

It is indirectly Bush's fault, if you think that he could have taken many steps early on to prevent this when, if he had listened to people, they knew there was a problem.  Although, it doesn't help to have a president who can't even spell "hurricane."  The fact is, Bush has been paying so much money into this "war" that there's none left over, after you take out all the jobs governments give themselves.  Who has profited off the war?  Daddy Bush and Cheney's friends.  Who profited off all these billion dollar highway projects?  The same people who authorized them.  And who has suffered because of it?  The People of the United States of America, who are supposed to have a government to protect them. 

Bush is damn right to take aid from the UN and everyone else who's offered. 

We don't blame Bush for the weather.  It was obviously Hugo Chavez's fault.  We should mobilize our special forces and take him out. 



And, a followup to Llamaman:  IT is expected to take up to 80 days to drain the city!!!

[pianistimo]

now i see why they are calling katrina the worst national disaster in us history.  so many people displaced at once.  this is terrible.  there are probably other areas of infrastructure in our country that needs looking at too before some catastrophe.  i guess in terms of money, it'll get there now definately.  it's just too bad it's after-the-fact.  everyone has a different agenda in govt and private citizenry.

i think nowdays (as in all times) it pays to pray and also to try to make the best decisions for yourself and your family that you can.  the people that chose not to flee at the time that it was told to them to do so made a bad decision.  now, they are complaining.  and, also, where you build or live is quite important.  california homes often slide down in mudslides when rains hit - earthquake faultlines are built up on, and i suppose the infrastructures of certain highways and bridges needs to be looked at.  you just realize that in certain areas you are taking a chance.

i hope that the idea of some cruise liners helps evacuate the area as much as buses.  my husband was mentioning that this idea recently was discussed. 

[leahcim]

now i see why they are calling katrina the worst national disaster in us history.

Because Britney would sue?

[llamaman]

Lol! Apparently it will be the most costly storm in terms of money. Not in loss of life. Those poor people in Galveston 

[BoliverAllmon]

yeah galveston was worse

[BoliverAllmon]

No, its because of global warming over the last few years. Look at this list of Cat 5 Hurricanes since data began being recorded in 1851:

Katrina-2005
Emily-2005
Ivan-2004
Isabel-2003
Floyd-1999
Lenny-1999
Mitch-1998
Georges-1998
Andrew-1992%
Hugo-1989
Gilbert-1988%
Gloria-1985
Allen-1980%
David-1979%
Anita-1977%
Edith-1971%
Camille-1969%
Beulah-1967%
Betsy-1965
Cleo-1964
Hattie-1961
Carla-1961
Donna-1960
Ethel-1960
Cleo-1958
Carrie-1957
Janet-1955
Hazel-1954
Easy-1951
Dog-1950
Miami-1947
Long Island Express-1938
Long Key-1935%
Galveston-1932
Lake Okeechobee-1928
Indianola-1886

And that's all folks. Hmm......it doesn't seem as though there were many Cat. 5 hurricanes until 1954, when names started to be used.........wonder why that could be 

9 of these made landfall as category 5's. They are marked with a %.

Hmm....there seems to be a lot, now what years are they spread across, late 60's, early 70's. The year of the strongest la nina.

ummm. you are full of crap. I don't know where you got your info. https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastdec.shtml?

here shows we have only had three cat. 5 storms since like the 1850's. and in fact, the 40's was the worst decade for major storms. we are still about the middle of the road in terms of the amount of hurricanes. oh and this site is the national hurricane center. pretty reliable, not some joe schmo reporter trying to make you feel a certain way.

boliver

[llamaman]

I got it from storm-carib.com somewhere there it shows, and wikipedia. Plus you need to look more carefully, that only shows the storms that have made LANDFALL in the U.S. as Cat. 5's.The 40's was not the worst on record, seeing as it was only those that made landfall, plus, there were no Cat. 5 landfalls, and only one Cat. 4 landfall.

[prometheus]

Well, counting the number of Cat.5 hurricanes is a really retarded way to prove that there is climate change. Plus we only have data for a few hundred years or something. Researchers used tree rings and polar ice to make temperature estimates thousands of days back. All of them show climate change in our time. A few have what is called the 'hockey stick' where temperature shoots up after the industrial revolution and flat the thousands of years before that event. Some people dispute this. The biggest critics of this data are two people outside the field, a economist and someone from the mining business. They made horrible mistakes, for instance messing up radiants and degrees so their credibility is 0.

The 'hockey stick' may still be a product of the mathematical normalisations and generalisations used instead of the actual data. It's hard to tell with that much data and different techniques to normalise them etc.

[llamaman]

But alas, it still does prove my point.

[prometheus]

I don't think it does. Hurricanes are rare and they are complex. You can't base conclusions on 30 hurricanes in the last 120 or something years. You need thousands before you can see a pattern. With only 30 measurements any pattern that can be coincidence.

Sure there are quite a few hurricanes the last few years. But the reason for this is can be anything. But if you add 1 and 1 together it does become two. If the planet warms up we would expect to see stronger storms, which we do. But if there had been no Cat.5 Hurricane the last few years that doesn't mean there isn't a climate change.

[llamaman]

What I'm saying, is that there are many more strong hurricanes in years with high la nina's, and they become strong after a strong el nino, and how do el nino's get strong? Heat, and why is there more heat? Global Warming. You will notice that in the "off" years for hurricanes, there will be more cyclones in the pacific.