Playing with rock bands

[kghayesh]

Hi,
I have some friends who made a rock band and they want me to play piano/keyboard with them. They mostly play Coldplay stuff, u know (The scientist, clocks,.....etc.)

In the meanwhile, i am preparing to have my orchestral debut next year and i am practicing many hard pieces that need a lot of time (Chopin's first ballade, Revolutionary Etude, Pathetique sonata).

I think of playing with this rock band as a way of getting used to accompanying (not playing solo). Of course it is much easier than playing with an orchestra or even accompanying any other instrument (violin, cello, flute.....etc.), But, i think it can be considered as a preparation...

Am i right, or it is just a waste of time??

[nightmarecinema]

Well, I suppose if you've never played with anyone before, it is in fact a good place to start. I'm sorry that it has to be playing Coldplay, but I'd at least see how it works out.

[donjuan]

Music is never a waste of time!

also, music is usually very alienating and antisocial.  If you can use it to get to know your buddies better, then go to it!

[clef]

yes it should help your accompaning skills.  definently at least a good start to preparing yourself

[jeremyjchilds]

Go for it,

Playing with contemporary groups does a lot for a pianist's rythm, since so much of modern pop and alternative music is rythmically charged.

Have fun, and don't forget to break out a fast beethoven sonata (moonlight last movement, for example) on the most obnoxious synthesizer sound you can find

[Bouter Boogie]

You should do it! It'll give you more experience in music

[dinosaurtales]

This reminds me of a story from when I was in High School.  Some of my friends had formed a rock band - the lead guitarist was very good - he actually took lessons and practices his scales!  Good for him!  Anyway, I got the invite to "sub" for their regular keyboardist (back then the keyboards were NOT what they are now ) and I thought it sounded like fun.  The reason they really wanted me was one of their "songs" was Inagodda da vida (sp?) with the arpeggio at the beginning, which their other player was having trouble with.  Well, I ripped the sucker off fine, and they were all pleased for a little while.  Trouble is, I am the most un-jazzy person ever put on this planet. They basically told me I was too "perfect" for the band, and I needed to "mush" my notes more.  Which I understood, but had no talent for doing!  egad!     

So to you I say good luck.  We're all counting on you!     

[timothy42b]

This type of work is less demanding technically, but will offer different types of challenges.  For a well rounded pianist this kind of performance experience is essential.

To make yourself more salable, you probably ought to pick up accordion as well.  Lots of accordion gigs out there, some of them pay fairly well. 

[timothy42b]

Oh, almost forgot, and this is critical.

Bring ear plugs.

Never never never perform in this kind of setting without ear plugs.  And you'd better practice this way first so it doesn't feel so strange. 

[kghayesh]

Bring ear plugs.

What??

Why should i do that?

[prometheus]

This is good experience.

If the band really plays loud earplugs should be used. A bit of bad luck because of the shape of the buidling and you could be hit with a wall of sound all through the concert, which is very bad. But with reasonable stage sound levels and playing balleds it should not be a problem. Just be aware of it.

[timothy42b]

What??

Why should i do that?

(Taking the question completely seriously.)

Rock bands and almost any other commercial performing band nowadays use amplifiers.

The volume of sound is painful.  But you will quickly get used to it.

Because your hearing has been damaged.  Permanently. 

You can live with pain, but you want to avoid loss of hearing, especially as a musician.

This is not a maybe, like maybe if you drive with a seatbelt it won't matter, because you might never have an accident.  This is absolutely 100% certain.  If you are in loud environments and do not protect your ears, you WILL have damage. 

Wear earplugs. 

And sunscreen, though Vonnegut did not say it. 

[donjuan]

(Taking the question completely seriously.)

Rock bands and almost any other commercial performing band nowadays use amplifiers.

The volume of sound is painful.  But you will quickly get used to it.

Because your hearing has been damaged.  Permanently. 

You can live with pain, but you want to avoid loss of hearing, especially as a musician.

This is not a maybe, like maybe if you drive with a seatbelt it won't matter, because you might never have an accident.  This is absolutely 100% certain.  If you are in loud environments and do not protect your ears, you WILL have damage. 

Wear earplugs. 

And sunscreen, though Vonnegut did not say it. 

If the band uses amplifiers, they also have the power to turn the music DOWN. Personally, I think wearing ear plugs while trying to make music is like painting with drunk goggles, so maybe you should try to talk your band members into turning it the *** down before bringing the ear plugs.  if they are the beligerent type who insist on having it loud, they might not be the type to consort with, and not worth playing with.  If everyone turns their amps down, everyone can be heard, and no one goes deaf.  If everyone turns it up, then everyone can be heard and everyone goes deaf.  I know some really stupid rock fans who just have to crank it because they have already suffered hearing loss.  From that point it just turns into a negative feedback loop
donjuan

[bearzinthehood]

On the subject of hearing loss, I'm thinking of wearing ear protection when practicing the piano.  My parents' grand is loud as hell and sometimes my ears ring after playing loud pieces...

[timothy42b]

If the band uses amplifiers, they also have the power to turn the music DOWN. Personally, I think wearing ear plugs while trying to make music is like painting with drunk goggles, so maybe you should try to talk your band members into turning it the *** down before bringing the ear plugs. 

In an ideal world perhaps you would be correct.

But speaking practically this is simply not possible.  Rock bands are a service industry.  Without amplification they don't get hired and don't get paid.  Even non rock bands use significant amplification so they can play larger venues and make more money.  The crowds expect a rock band to be loud and that's what the customer demands.  If you want to stay in business you supply it. 

Really, it isn't that hard to learn to play with earplugs in. 

[donjuan]

In an ideal world perhaps you would be correct.

But speaking practically this is simply not possible.  Rock bands are a service industry.  Without amplification they don't get hired and don't get paid.  Even non rock bands use significant amplification so they can play larger venues and make more money.  The crowds expect a rock band to be loud and that's what the customer demands.  If you want to stay in business you supply it. 

Really, it isn't that hard to learn to play with earplugs in. 

ok.... so maybe turn it up when they perform in Central Park in New York in front of 3000 people, but for the 100s of times they go over the piece in rehearsal (in Joe's garage) they can turn it down to prevent hearing loss.  Just because the music needs to be loud in performance doesnt mean it has to be loud in rehearsal...  Its all ratios, right? if they write down the settings for each instrument, then they can all increase it at the same amount on performance night.  Say, in practice the electric guitar uses setting 4 and the bass uses setting 3.  the ratio is then 4:3 and when they have to perform in a larger area, they can turn it up to 8:6.  same ratio... whats the difference?

[nightmarecinema]

Two things:

One - when playing with a band and rehearsing, the minimum volume is the minimum volume of the loudest instrument. With many rock bands (including ones I play with), the drummers have to play loud. Why not have them play quieter? Because when the drummer hits like a pussy it sounds like sh*t. To get a good sound, you can't play quiet - you don't have to crank your amps up to 11, but you have to be heard over the unamplified drummer. This means playing slightly louder, so that you can be heard. This means, depending on the band, a bassist, guitarist(s), vocalist (usually), and sometimes a keyboardist. So no, you can't play at a volume where earplugs are unnecessary.

Two - when you play at louder volumes, you can't simply change the ratios. When you turn up the amp, the sound changes (tube amps, anyway, ALL sound better REALLY, REALLY loud). And when you turn up the amp, what was previously the perfect amount of bass is messing with your sound, and you have to readjust everything. It's not as simple as you might think.

[pita bread]

Just because the music needs to be loud in performance doesnt mean it has to be loud in rehearsal...  Its all ratios, right? if they write down the settings for each instrument, then they can all increase it at the same amount on performance night.  Say, in practice the electric guitar uses setting 4 and the bass uses setting 3.  the ratio is then 4:3 and when they have to perform in a larger area, they can turn it up to 8:6.  same ratio... whats the difference?

You don't know much about rock music do you?

[rc]

Two things:

One - when playing with a band and rehearsing, the minimum volume is the minimum volume of the loudest instrument. With many rock bands (including ones I play with), the drummers have to play loud. Why not have them play quieter? Because when the drummer hits like a pussy it sounds like ***. To get a good sound, you can't play quiet - you don't have to crank your amps up to 11, but you have to be heard over the unamplified drummer. This means playing slightly louder, so that you can be heard. This means, depending on the band, a bassist, guitarist(s), vocalist (usually), and sometimes a keyboardist. So no, you can't play at a volume where earplugs are unnecessary.

Two - when you play at louder volumes, you can't simply change the ratios. When you turn up the amp, the sound changes (tube amps, anyway, ALL sound better REALLY, REALLY loud). And when you turn up the amp, what was previously the perfect amount of bass is messing with your sound, and you have to readjust everything. It's not as simple as you might think.

I don't entirely agree with this approach, it's the unmusical side of rock attitude where the audience has to have hearing fatigue after two songs.

Too many drummers follow the idea that louder = better, and the end result is compressed dynamics, just like cranked distortion. Softer drumming doesn't sound bad, one of the best local bands I've heard was able to go right down to a whisper with the drummer keeping perfectly balanced in the mix. I was impressed. Other drummers will pound their skins wavy, crack cymbals and still ask to miced. I have no idea where the notion that soft drumming sounds like *** comes from.

Tube amps tuned to 11 as well. Cool as it is to be able to feel the music through your balls, most of the professional bands I've heard relied on the PA to deliver their sound using a miced amp at reasonable volume. Then again, the majority of bands aren't professional at all.

I like a lot of rock music, but don't like the standards of most rock musicians.

[donjuan]

You don't know much about rock music do you?

I played guitar in music class in my high school over a period of 4 years and in that time, I heard many MANY performances of the small shitty rock bands of the school.  I heard enough and learned enough through playing rock music with an ensemble to know that music doesnt have to be loud to sound good and also,

One - when playing with a band and rehearsing, the minimum volume is the minimum volume of the loudest instrument. With many rock bands (including ones I play with), the drummers have to play loud. Why not have them play quieter? Because when the drummer hits like a pussy it sounds like ***. To get a good sound, you can't play quiet - you don't have to crank your amps up to 11, but you have to be heard over the unamplified drummer. This means playing slightly louder, so that you can be heard. This means, depending on the band, a bassist, guitarist(s), vocalist (usually), and sometimes a keyboardist. So no, you can't play at a volume where earplugs are unnecessary.

I learned that the drummer doesnt have to beat the hell out of the drums to sound good.

We also used the ratio thing for all our amplified instruments including the electric guitars, the bass, and the keyboard and found that it worked VERY WELL when we performed in a big hall for many people.

nightmarecinema, I wouldnt be surprised if you have suffered hearing loss and that explains why you need the drums to be loud, or as you say, why you cant have them soft because "it sounds like *** when the drummer hits like a pussy."
 also,

So no, you can't play at a volume where earplugs are unnecessary.

now thats just stupid.

[kghayesh]

Looks like the topic has made some controversy here...

I have practiced with those guys a few days ago. And my god, i was so surprised to what happened. Now, it is so obvious to me that classical music kicks *** any other kind of music.

We played a couple of Coldplay songs (Clocks, The scientist). I played from the score coz i thought it would be so dumb to memorize all those repeated chords. The other guy thought like, what the hell i was doing. To my surprise, i was the only one who went by a steady pulse throughout all of the piece. I didn't stop at all and went ok throughout all of it. All of them had some bad spots and stopped in some parts. So, it was like i was playing sometimes with the vocals alone, sometimes with the drums and guitar and sometimes with the guitar alone.

Althought these guys listen to a lot of rock and they have some experience in playing rock music, but it seems that classical music lets you learn music the proper way.

And about the noise of the amps, during practice, we keep it down to a manageable level, maybe at concerts it will be another issue, but until then it is pretty fine.

[leahcim]

Too many drummers follow the idea that louder = better

That's to do with the fact that a well developed torso suitable for beating drums at volume has the evolutionary advantage of attracting groupies, isn't it? "Music" is just a side-effect [modulo the Ringo Starr effect, but he was hand picked to break the rule]

Although it's unlikely a drummer is going to put much thought into the reasons behind it - no more than another species of ape would ponder the reason for his bright red backside

[nightmarecinema]

Alright, let me clarify. It does, obviously, depend on what kind of music you're playing, and where you are rehearsing. We rehearsed in the drummers room, and also in another of the band members attic. In such a small area, the drums were not going to sound good played quietly for the songs we were performing (Ramble On, Message in a Bottle, and another that doesn't apply to this). That is, the acoustics just naturally sucked, and were going to be loud.

Now, it is possible to play the drums quietly and have it sound good, but the problem is that too many people equate quiet to not hitting with as much force (as I termed it before - actually as my band teacher put it - hitting like a pussy). You still give it quite a good rap, but you don't use the same technique. This technique however, doesn't sound great for the aforementioned songs - by Led Zeppelin and the Police.

Suffering hearing loss would have nothing to do with the drums sounding good. It would just mean that it was harder for me to hear the drums, so that has nothing to do with it.

I may have missed replying to something - point it out if I did.

[timothy42b]

I think this thread illustrates a couple of unexpected lessons.

One is that a lot of piano players have very little idea of what goes on in the working music world, as far as volume of sound, economics of making a profit, etc. 

Another is that (don't take offense) piano players see themselves as the star, and not a team member.  Don't you think it a little arrogant and self important to expect that the rest of a rock band will turn down their amps so as not to annoy you?  You may not see it that way BUT THEY WILL. 

Anyone who's done even one paid gig should realize if you go in with an attitude, you'll never be hired back.  Regardless of your skills.  That may not be true for a solo concert pianist, but I guarantee you it is true for everybody else.  (I've got lots of gigs over better players because I happened to be easier to get along with.) 

I think what this thread really illustrates is that a little commercial experience is extremely important, and you all ought to be trying to perform at other types of venues besides recitals and competitions.  You need more real world exposure. 

[nightmarecinema]

I agree with this ^ - Jaco Pastorius (one of the best electric bassists ever) stopped getting gigs because he was too cocky.

By the way, I'm a guitarist first, pianist second.

[rc]

I think this thread illustrates a couple of unexpected lessons.

One is that a lot of piano players have very little idea of what goes on in the working music world, as far as volume of sound, economics of making a profit, etc. 

Another is that (don't take offense) piano players see themselves as the star, and not a team member.  Don't you think it a little arrogant and self important to expect that the rest of a rock band will turn down their amps so as not to annoy you?  You may not see it that way BUT THEY WILL. 

Anyone who's done even one paid gig should realize if you go in with an attitude, you'll never be hired back.  Regardless of your skills.  That may not be true for a solo concert pianist, but I guarantee you it is true for everybody else.  (I've got lots of gigs over better players because I happened to be easier to get along with.) 

My experience with rock bands was in the audience and as a guitarist (stereotypically the egotystical player in a band). I know I had the ego and was hard to work with as a kid, but I got over that. Afterwards I was always invited back. Even now that I have no interest in guitar people are still wanting me to play with them. Developing a professional attitude makes you very much in demand.

My beef is from a practical standpoint; it's more enjoyable when the volume isn't damaging yours or the audiences ears. Not only in the long run, but even in the short-term if the music is too loud the audience gets hearing fatigue and everything starts to sound the same.

A bigger, louder wall of sound is part of the ole 'RAWK attitude' going back to Sabbath and Deep Purple, but it makes no sense.

a little commercial experience is extremely important, and you all ought to be trying to perform at other types of venues besides recitals and competitions.  You need more real world exposure. 

I can agree with that. Sometimes the world of classical piano seems like a bubble seperate from everyone else... It's good to be able to relate music to the layman.

[jbmajor]

A bigger, louder wall of sound is part of the ole 'RAWK attitude' going back to Sabbath and Deep Purple, but it makes no sense.

I can agree with that. Sometimes the world of classical piano seems like a bubble seperate from everyone else... It's good to be able to relate music to the layman.

The "rock attitude" isn't supposed to make sense.  It's all about letting loose and having a good time.  If you're worried about a few cilia getting rocked (no pun intended) then you're probably in the wrong place.  I can tell the difference between good loud and bad loud too when it comes to rock bands.  The balance of sound is what's most important, and if that's properly addressed it shouldn't have to be excessively loud to sound good.  For the bands/fans who need it turned up to 11 all the time, well, they're a different breed and pay the price later (if they even know any better or care for that matter  ). 

I was raised on rock myself, and having only recently discovered first hand the great musical depth of classical music, on the flipside of the coin it's increasingly apparent that because it is so rigidly structured, there's a dimension of raw human spirit that many of it's most diligent practitioners may be overlooking.  It's almost like classical music is bound by chains...to me rock is something that shatters them.  While I have great respect and admiration for all who practice and perform some of the most difficult music ever written (I know, I have tried some Rach, Chopin, Beethoven, etc. and am moved by much of their work), I think many could benefit from opening up to a whole new level of musical understanding through rock music (real rock, not the poppy stuff they play on top 40 these days  ).  Not everything has to be technically demanding to be impressive (although a lot of rock can be as well).  For me, rock music strikes a perfect chordal balance of feeling, raw energy, and musical integrity.

This is a good thread too, a lot of interesting posts in here. 

[nightmarecinema]

I definately agree with jbmajor - I think rock is underrated by too many classical pianists who don't understand the depth of alot of it.

jbmajor, what kind of rock do you listen to?

[rc]

The "rock attitude" isn't supposed to make sense.  It's all about letting loose and having a good time.  If you're worried about a few cilia getting rocked (no pun intended) then you're probably in the wrong place.  I can tell the difference between good loud and bad loud too when it comes to rock bands.  The balance of sound is what's most important, and if that's properly addressed it shouldn't have to be excessively loud to sound good.  For the bands/fans who need it turned up to 11 all the time, well, they're a different breed and pay the price later (if they even know any better or care for that matter  ).

I was raised on rock myself, and having only recently discovered first hand the great musical depth of classical music, on the flipside of the coin it's increasingly apparent that because it is so rigidly structured, there's a dimension of raw human spirit that many of it's most diligent practitioners may be overlooking.  It's almost like classical music is bound by chains...to me rock is something that shatters them.  While I have great respect and admiration for all who practice and perform some of the most difficult music ever written (I know, I have tried some Rach, Chopin, Beethoven, etc. and am moved by much of their work), I think many could benefit from opening up to a whole new level of musical understanding through rock music (real rock, not the poppy stuff they play on top 40 these days  ).  Not everything has to be technically demanding to be impressive (although a lot of rock can be as well).  For me, rock music strikes a perfect chordal balance of feeling, raw energy, and musical integrity.

This is a good thread too, a lot of interesting posts in here. 

That's the appeal of the rock attitude, it's so energetic and fun. You don't play classical music when you're hanging with friends or partying, you put in rock; it gets everyone energized, people can relate/know the words/dance to it... Rock has its place and I still like a lot of it, but my temperament is more suited to classical and jazz, it just took a while to find that out . Recently I've really taken a liking to Queens of the Stone Age though, Rated R is starting to look beat-up from being carried around everywhere 

[jbmajor]

I definately agree with jbmajor - I think rock is underrated by too many classical pianists who don't understand the depth of alot of it.

jbmajor, what kind of rock do you listen to?

  I play guitar too...I consider myself a guitar man who has a soft spot for piano.  Melodies on piano are untouchable I think (with the treble and bass), that's what draws me to the instrument.  But the sound of a guitar and the music it is native to (rock, blues, etc) are what I grew up on and listen to the most without tiring of it.  I listen to a variety of stuff, used to be Guns 'n Roses growing up, along with AC/DC, Dire Straits, Rage Against the Machine... now I'm 26 and still like all of them, but have been getting into the older stuff....Rolling Stones, Beatles, Hendrix, Clapton, Stevie Ray Vaughan, also starting to find out for myself if Led Zeppelin is really everything people say there are or simply overrated....I do like some of their stuff though.  Ozzy/Black Sabbath's earlier stuff is also good- No More Tears has some cool piano in it.  I've also always been a Tom Petty fan, learned some of the first stuff on guitar from his songs.  He also has some excellent piano based song ballads.  Guns 'n Roses has November Rain and Estranged which were a couple of the first songs I learned on piano.  The group Muse has a few piano based tunes, Apocalypse Please, Butterflies and Hurricanes, and Ruled by Secrecy which are very cool if you can tolerate the singer's voice, lol. 
  And then of course there's Billy Joel and Elton John, who have some of the best piano rock out there, especially Bennie and the Jets (Elton), and the album Songs in the Attic has a lot of live Joel songs that sound very good (Captain Jack, Streetlife Serenader, etc) very worth a listen.  Streetlife Serenader was one of the first songs I learned completely from the authentic transcription.  I'd listen to the cd to and from the music building at my school where I picked apart the songs; made it more interesting to listen to them being played and trying to play the way I heard them.   
  I've been away from a piano for months now after I moved....it'll be interesting when I get behind a grand again to see what I remember.   

[clef]

If the band uses amplifiers, they also have the power to turn the music DOWN. Personally, I think wearing ear plugs while trying to make music is like painting with drunk goggles, so maybe you should try to talk your band members into turning it the *** down before bringing the ear plugs.  if they are the beligerent type who insist on having it loud, they might not be the type to consort with, and not worth playing with.  If everyone turns their amps down, everyone can be heard, and no one goes deaf.  If everyone turns it up, then everyone can be heard and everyone goes deaf.  I know some really stupid rock fans who just have to crank it because they have already suffered hearing loss.  From that point it just turns into a negative feedback loop
donjuan

that would work exepct for 1 thing...

the drum kit is the only instrument that has a set volume, and that is pretty loud, so all the other instruments need to match it by using amps.  if you turn them down then the drum kit will be the loudest and it will be hard to hear the other parts.  and you should have an amp for your digital piano/keyboard so even with earplugs you should be able to hear it all fine

[nightmarecinema]

  I play guitar too...I consider myself a guitar man who has a soft spot for piano.  Melodies on piano are untouchable I think (with the treble and bass), that's what draws me to the instrument.  But the sound of a guitar and the music it is native to (rock, blues, etc) are what I grew up on and listen to the most without tiring of it.  I listen to a variety of stuff, used to be Guns 'n Roses growing up, along with AC/DC, Dire Straits, Rage Against the Machine... now I'm 26 and still like all of them, but have been getting into the older stuff....Rolling Stones, Beatles, Hendrix, Clapton, Stevie Ray Vaughan, also starting to find out for myself if Led Zeppelin is really everything people say there are or simply overrated....I do like some of their stuff though.  Ozzy/Black Sabbath's earlier stuff is also good- No More Tears has some cool piano in it.  I've also always been a Tom Petty fan, learned some of the first stuff on guitar from his songs.  He also has some excellent piano based song ballads.  Guns 'n Roses has November Rain and Estranged which were a couple of the first songs I learned on piano.  The group Muse has a couple piano based tunes, Apocalypse Please and Ruled by Secrecy which are very cool if you can tolerate the singer's voice, lol. 
  And then of course there's Billy Joel and Elton John, who have some of the best piano rock out there, especially Bennie and the Jets (Elton), and the album Songs in the Attic has a lot of live Joel songs that sound very good (Captain Jack, Streetlife Serenader, etc) very worth a listen.  Streetlife Serenader was one of the first songs I learned completely from the authentic transcription.  I'd listen to the cd to and from the music building at my school where I picked apart the songs; made it more interesting to listen to them being played and trying to play the way I heard them.   
  I've been away from a piano for months now after I moved....it'll be interesting when I get behind a grand again to see what I remember.   

Ah, that's how I started out rock. HUGE Led Zeppelin fan, love probably 80% of all of their work. From there I moved to Guns N Roses and AC/DC and then to Ozzy - but just with Randy Rhoads. Well, then we skip two years of my history and end up now, where I listen to a healthy amount of metal, like Opeth, Pain of Salvation, Nevermore, Soilwork, etc. Great stuff in its own right.

I agree about the melodic capabilities of the piano - and as versatile as it is, there are somethings that attract me to the guitar more, as you said.

[brewtality]

Ah, that's how I started out rock. HUGE Led Zeppelin fan, love probably 80% of all of their work. From there I moved to Guns N Roses and AC/DC and then to Ozzy - but just with Randy Rhoads.

Respect! As you can probably tell from my username and profile pic, I am a huge fan of Zakk Wylde and Randy Rhoads. Especially Randy, he is still my idol. Btw there are some nice piano/keyboard parts on Blizzard of Ozz like in Revelation (mother earth) and Mr Crowley. Though admittedly, they are overshadowed by Rhoads' titanic playing.

[nightmarecinema]

Respect! As you can probably tell from my username and profile pic, I am a huge fan of Zakk Wylde and Randy Rhoads. Especially Randy, he is still my idol. Btw there are some nice piano/keyboard parts on Blizzard of Ozz like in Revelation (mother earth) and Mr Crowley. Though admittedly, they are overshadowed by Rhoads' titanic playing.

Still my idol , but no longer the best in my opinion (Allan Holdsworth), or my favorite (Shawn Lane), or my favorite musician (Daniel Gildenlow - Pain of Salvation)

[leahcim]

Still my idol , but no longer the best in my opinion (Allan Holdsworth), or my favorite (Shawn Lane), or my favorite musician (Daniel Gildenlow - Pain of Salvation)

Holdsworth's more Jazz though and probably better than most because of that. At least years ago when I looked at a book, the chords were just 'eh? what's he playing?"

Crashing into a bus didn't help RR. Although of the school that do "nylon string intro followed by fast single notes" there hasn't been _that_ much advancement - certainly not if you consider that most of RR's stuff were songs, not "album for guitar players to buy".

If you hear that solo vai did with FZ on, IIRC, shut up and play yer guitar, it's very rough compared with the well produced stuff that followed - I think a lot is in the production as much as significantly better playing - similary I had an early Yngwie live EP import that was terrible compared with the clean sounding studio stuff - he couldn't even play Hendrix snippets as well as your average joe playing in a cover band who wouldn't rate a mention in Guitar Player, let alone the pages and pages of guff about Paganini and virtuosity they printed when YM first appeared.

When Vai's played with bands his playing is far less flashy and imo there's not a lot that touches Blizzard from the modern superstars of guitar when they are playing in bands and writing songs. OTOH, there's clearly not the same level of "Look at what I can play" that RR could have done on a solo instrumental guitar album - so Vai et al have better shredding evidence on record.

e.g I'd be mightly impressed with Yngwie's "virtuosity" and using the word "classical" if he approached Mangore on the nylon strings and followed that up with something that really did approach Paganini or Bach on the electric.

As it is, Richie Blackmore put "J S Bach" on the album sleeve, and pinched lines from him, quite a few have played distorted guitar, out of time with an orchestra too. Tull's Ian Anderson even had the sense to play something that fit without the amps. Rush / Randy Rhodes and countless others have done Grade 2 nylon strung intros, even Stairway and a few other Led Zepp acoustic bits could pass or even outdo most of them.

[nightmarecinema]

Randy Rhoads had been planning on leaving Ozzy after the Diary tour and going back to school to study classical guitar. It would have been really interesting to see what he was planning on doing solo, but unfortunately we won't get to. Although his live Suicide Solution solo was a good scope into the depths of his playing.

Yngwie is not classical. As much as people want to call him classical, he's not. He comes close on his album with the orchestra, but that's really boring. Really a great player, and when I saw on G3 he did a version of Voodoo Chile that I think was pretty good, despite adding his own shrediness to it - and by the way, Yngwie isn't as original as you might think...he's a faster Ritchie Blackmore, between the classical ideas, scalloped frets, right down to the persona.

But if you want to hear technical and musical virtuosity, check out Shawn Lane (rock fusion guitarist). If you want to hear the best rock songwriting ever, listen to Pain of Salvation.

[Jacey1973]

Go for it! Playing in bands is so fun. I used to be in a band at school (playing piano/keyboard - we mainly did Manic Street Preachers/Radiohead covers because we were obsessed with those bands), at college we had a singing/"stars in their eyes" type competition and i got to be in the backing band for that playing all sorts of pop music from 50s-present day.

It is so fun and such an easy change from classical - you will find it tonnes easier than playing classical piano. What makes it so enjoyable is being with others in a small group and achieving music together.

But then i always find my way back to classical...somehow playing piano part to something like Coldplay's "Clocks" gets boring within 2 minutes.

[solitudewithin]

Well my expierience playing in a rock band goes back at high school. It was fun and in any case you can benefit as a musician, exchanging ideas with the other band members and stuff. But i have a question. I have seen many keyboardists play standing for hours. How they manage to play relaxed while not sitting at all? Are there any tips to that concept?

[nightmarecinema]

Well my expierience playing in a rock band goes back at high school. It was fun and in any case you can benefit as a musician, exchanging ideas with the other band members and stuff. But i have a question. I have seen many keyboardists play standing for hours. How they manage to play relaxed while not sitting at all? Are there any tips to that concept?

Practice standing up.

[clef]

Well my expierience playing in a rock band goes back at high school. It was fun and in any case you can benefit as a musician, exchanging ideas with the other band members and stuff. But i have a question. I have seen many keyboardists play standing for hours. How they manage to play relaxed while not sitting at all? Are there any tips to that concept?

if you have a problem with standing up, then don't.  Many keyboardists don't stand up, and you don't need to.  I barley ever stand up when playing, you can see on my display pic that my keyboard is on an ujustable stand, so I can do either. 

[invictus]

If you play standing up, straight erect up, your wrist will have to bend at an unusual angle, it can make it sore, CTS, tendonitis and lots of other injuries

If you play half standing, its almost the same as abovementioned, but less worse, still, you will still die from it 

If you play sitting down, fine

UNLESS you are playing a mini keyboard with this high stand, then you can play standing up, which is probably optimal

Oh yea, practice headbanging while standing and while playing, get long hair too.

EARPLUGS ARE NECESSARY
My ears are very sensitive, even playing at this small orchestra of about 20 people, my ears start hurting already, but hey I am synaesthetic and I have perfect pitch!

Here is a guide on how to be a rock star pianist:

Have your piano at about belly button height.
Bash a perfect fifth and hold it with your right hand
Raise your left arm with close fist but with pinky and index finger sticking out
Tongue slightly hanging out(optional)
Start headbanging(necessary)

[clef]

Here is a guide on how to be a rock star pianist:

Have your piano at about belly button height.
Bash a perfect fifth and hold it with your right hand
Raise your left arm with close fist but with pinky and index finger sticking out
Tongue slightly hanging out(optional)
Start headbanging(necessary)

erm no...

[sevencircles]

Playing with rockbands can be a good idea or a bad idea depending on how you are as a person.

Jordan Rudess from Dream Theater was a promising classical pianist (Went to Julliard when he was 11) but switched to rock keyboard and it has worked very well for him. He loves strange keyboardsounds and slides and pitchbends with a ribboncontroler (It´s actually very fun to do)

Vitalij Kuprij from Ukraine did the same thing but it has hardly worked as well for him. He was ones a very promising classical pianist that went to Curtis to study with Gary Graffman.

 He is rumoured to have started drinking a lot when he became a rockkeyboardist and I have no doubt about that when I heard a livealbum he did in Japan recently. Several misstakes during unisonlines and it seemed like he was nothing but a shadow of what he used to be.

[bartolomeo_]

From the replies I doubt if many of you do this very much.

Rock and related genres are, in typical playing environments, played based on memorization and feel rather than from a score.  So the first rule of thumb is that you have to know the material, so get some CDs of the material you're supposed to play and listen to them until you know stuff.

Then you have to work out the keys and chords, which generally should be done before rehearsing with the band.  I usually write these out on regular notepaper.  Sometimes I'll write out sections on regular staff paper but that isn't really customary.

Most bands have a high stage volume and a high rehearsal volume because they do not know how to control it.  Oftentimes a good deal of the problem is a drummer who can't play soft.  More experienced bands are better at controlling stage volume than are newly formed bands or bands made up of inexperienced players.  Serious keyboardists get in-ear monitors and a personal mixer.  The in-ear monitors attenuate the surrounding noise and the personal mixer allows them to hear what they want to hear.

Earplugs also work.

People who do this successfully are generally able to read chord symbols -- not just major and minor triads but the full set of sevenths, diminished, augmented, etc. in all inversions, generally but not always without the fifth.  And then play these in all manner or rhythmic variations.

Other vital skills include transcription, a very solid sense of rhythm and an ability to play in time with the drummer, and the ability to listen and play sparingly.  Any classically trained pianist who is at all accomplished has more than enough technical skill to do this, but the listening and fitting-in skills take practice in a band environment.  There are commercially successful rock acts that have keyboard players who don't play with more than one hand at once.

Organ -- and that's B-3 organ (and the clones) -- is an important part of rock and so any keyboard player serious about rock and roll will at least play piano and organ and maybe a little bit of synth.

[super5james]

Well in my experices with all kinds of music, being in a rock band will help you to become a well balanced musican itll help with ear training, your accopanying and with ensemble playing. its benfeital to do things like that. Now if you think that playing wth rock bands is not your calling then dont do it. ok

[cfortunato]

Not only is playng in a rock band fun, it's different, and teaches you things you may never learn doing classical music.  Some of the best musicians in the world can't jam.  And it's a pity.  Learn how to jam.  You'll be a better human being for it.

[invictious]

If you play standing up, straight erect up, your wrist will have to bend at an unusual angle, it can make it sore, CTS, tendonitis and lots of other injuries

If you play half standing, its almost the same as abovementioned, but less worse, still, you will still die from it 

If you play sitting down, fine

UNLESS you are playing a mini keyboard with this high stand, then you can play standing up, which is probably optimal

Oh yea, practice headbanging while standing and while playing, get long hair too.

EARPLUGS ARE NECESSARY
My ears are very sensitive, even playing at this small orchestra of about 20 people, my ears start hurting already, but hey I am synaesthetic and I have perfect pitch!

Here is a guide on how to be a rock star pianist:

Have your piano at about belly button height.
Bash a perfect fifth and hold it with your right hand
Raise your left arm with close fist but with pinky and index finger sticking out
Tongue slightly hanging out(optional)
Start headbanging(necessary)

Thanks, you helped me for life on playing standing up!

Playing in a rockband is like playing a concerto, except you don't get that many solos, and some people out there might just think that you are extraneous.

You will learn to jam, improvise, and change on live gigs when the the guitarists has a ego which is too big.

It will help you count, and allows flexibility.

Don't play standing up unless you have your piano high enough to keep your wrist straight, or you will regret it.