I hurt myself :'(

[jamie0168]

I've been working on a chopin etude that has my RH flying up and down the keys. Apparently, I've been having a rough time with "pressing" the keys instead of using my arm weight. It's creating alot of tension and it came to a halt two days ago. My wrist is hurting so badly  , I can't turn door knobs without flinching. My professor told me to stop playing for a couple of days, which is driving me crazy...considering I have a competition coming up. I've been taking infammatories and icing it, but it still hurts like a **** . I'm very depressed about this whle thing. Just looking for a little emotional support and alerting those of you who have never been injured from playing with bad technique.

[allthumbs]

Greetings

Wow, that's terrible!

I've never had that happen, but as an older player, I know I have to warm up for 5-10 minutes or so and then tackle pieces of increasing difficulty or face my forearm muscles fatiguing prematurely.

I find myself stretching my forarms at regular intervals and taking small breaks so I don't overstress the muscles.

If I play on a daily basis, the degree and rate of fatigue becomes diminished over time. But, as one who does piano as a hobby and not a vocation, I haven't been able to acheive that goal on an ongoing basis.

IMO, I would seek out a repetitive stress therapist (one with a working knowlege of piano technique would be a bonus) and isolate what may be causing your problem. I understand such injuries could become very problematic and chronic.

Good luck

Cheers

[perfect_pitch]

DAMN.... I'm one of those people who don't have the best technique, due to too many past teachers who never gave a damn about posture or technique. I'm trying to play Chopins Etude Op 25 No. 12, and my wrist is starting to hurt trying to play the piece close to the speed. Same with my Liszt HR No. 6 - That B flat octave passage is sore as hell... And I have small hands as well. I can just BARELY reach a 10th... and I'm 20 years old.

[da jake]

Is the 6th Rhapsody the one with that huge stretch?

Every sane person with hands your size rolls it, I think. (I myself have trouble reaching a major tenth) I think Liszt would have too, actually.   

[Kassaa]

When does it hurt? If you pull your wrist up or down? Or is it a constant pain?.

[lava]

Hi. There's a good chance you've got repetitive strain injury, which can also be caused by working on a computer. I've had that too. For me it was impossible to turn door knobs and water taps as well. Is it a constant pain, even when you wake up?

My advice: go to see the doctor as soon as possible! And prepare mentally not to play piano for a couple of months. I know that sucks, but If you carry on you might permanently damage your arm.

I had it only in my right arm, so I studied some pieces for the left hand alone.

[rapmasterb]

is it possible to damage yourself from practising tremolos? Im practising and octave tremolo at the moment and its d - e-flat. I have medium sized hands and but even still its a bit of a stretch and it sometimes hurts immediately after i practise it. Should i stop or is this just muscle fatigue?

[thalbergmad]

For many years, i have had acupuncture to sooth any stresses or strains. I also have my hands and forearms massaged every month.

This has kept all aches and pains at bay and i find i can play for hours without fatigue.

The downside is a lotion i apply that smells like a zookeepers boots. But it is price worth paying.

[jamie0168]

It's not a constant pain...only when I move it up or down or twist it. And it seems to get worse through the course of the day. If the doctor tells me that I can't play for a month, or even a week, I'll go insane!!!!!!!! I...I just can't do that! I know it's for my well being....but......a whole month! Heck no!!!!!!!!     

[arensky]

It's not a constant pain...only when I move it up or down or twist it. And it seems to get worse through the course of the day. If the doctor tells me that I can't play for a month, or even a week, I'll go insane!!!!!!!! I...I just can't do that! I know it's for my well being....but......a whole month! Heck no!!!!!!!!     

So sorry for your injury  but it sounds like you have the begining of CTS (Carpal Tunnel Syndrome), which means that lava is right, you should probably stop playing with your RH for awhile. Time for LH pieces, and do what the doctor, hopefully one who understands musician's problems, tells you. Also, did you do this on your own or were you following instructions from your teacher? If the latter is the case you should reevaluate this person's advice, as this where it's gotten you...sorry, maybe I'm out of bounds saying that, but there's no need for you or anyone to be in pain from piano playing. Any good teacher does not let this happen to her/his students. OK, what's more important, this competition or the rest of your piano life! Nip this in the bud now! You'll be glad you did. And you still have a LH, but go EASY on it! Scriabin Prelude and Nocturne, Bach/Brahms Chaconne in d minor, and Ravel Concerto. All good pieces and when you're better your LH will be more proficient. I injured my RH  (slipping on ice) about a month and a half before my senior recital, which included the "Revolutionary" Etude. Best thing that ever happened to my LH! All I did for two weeks was practice the LH of that etude. My RH was OK after a couple of weeks, just badly bruised (lucky...).

Anyway, this is RH vacation time for you!          Do the right thing.......

[thierry13]

If you're up to the challenge, play a Chopin- Godowsky study for the left hand alone. It would be amazing.

[xvimbi]

Although it is admirable to receive suggestions for what to do with your left hand during the time your right hand is out of commission, I think you should focus on the injured hand.

I wonder how it could have come this far that you are in such pain that you can hardly use your hand. Weren't there any signs of that already a few days earlier? Usually, such severe symptoms don't show up after just one practice session. If there were sysmptoms already before, you will probably pay more attention to them the next time. OK, enough yelling

Does the pain get worse at night? That would be typical for CTS. CTS is common in pianists (more common even in violinists) and in general in people who repetitively use their hands/fingers while the wrist is bent. But CTS is a collection of nerve-related symptoms that arise primarily because of swelling in the carpal tunnel and the resulting pressure acting of the nerves running through the tunnel. In this case, you should also feel tingling in your fingers (particularly thumb and index finger) and perhaps pain radiating up the arm. Holding the wrist straight and not using the hand for a couple of days so that the swelling goes back down should take care of it.

Another common reason for pain in the wrist is playing for a long time with stretched, tensed hands, such as octave and large-chord playing. This often shows up as pain on the outsides of the wrist.

Whatever it is, if the pain hasn't subsided by the time you read this, you should of course go to a doctor (ideally, an orthopedic surgeon, specializing in the hand). Applying ice can't hurt, massaging is fine, but also consider wearing a splint. It is best to keep your right hand still for a few days until the pain has gone away completely. Don't go to a grocery store, however, to get the splint; have the doctor give you the appropriate one if s/he deems useful.

Finally, during the recovery time, I would not so much focus on the left hand, but in fact intensely focus on the right hand. Try to analyze exactly what led to the problems you are having and fix those problems. If you don't know the causes of your problem, and you start playing a challenging Godowski staudy for the left hand, you will likely end up with the same problems in your left hand.

Best of luck!

[jamie0168]

Thanks for the info. I'll see a doctor asap. Today, I had my first lesson since the injury. My wrist had not been hurting all day long! My professor's piano is quite heavy  ( play-wise) and by the end of the lesson, it was hurting again. I've been resting it for four days now. I've also been very careful with the mistakes that led to the injury. I play single notes very slowly, and every time, I make sure that my entire arm/shoulder/back/wrist/hand/ fingers are relaxed. This has been very confusing...the way my professor put it, I'm not supposed to play when it hurts, but continue to retrain my technique so that it doesn't happen again. So, basically, I'm sitting here with my wrist hurting like hell, and all I can think about is fixing the problem, yet when I play for more than 30 minutes, it starts hurting again.
My professor said it could be beginning signs of tendonitus, considering that my fingers or thumbs haven't been tingling. I'm very scared.

[leahcim]

This has been very confusing...the way my professor put it, I'm not supposed to play when it hurts, but continue to retrain my technique so that it doesn't happen again. So, basically, I'm sitting here with my wrist hurting like hell, and all I can think about is fixing the problem, yet when I play for more than 30 minutes, it starts hurting again.

It could take a long time to heal permanently - that's to say you can hurt some part of your body and then even doing something properly that wouldn't normally hurt or cause injury, might hurt because you are injured.

The answer to "hurts if you play for more than 30 minutes" is probably "play for periods much less than 30 minutes" and focus that time on playing properly [which is easier said than done if you don't know what that is]

Does this professor know? That's a difficult call I guess but you'll have to decide whether the professor knows and you've failed to follow his instruction leading to injury or whether he's never corrected bad technique and the best thing you can do with your left hand is wave goodbye

[xvimbi]

Does this professor know? That's a difficult call I guess but you'll have to decide whether the professor knows and you've failed to follow his instruction leading to injury or whether he's never corrected bad technique and the best thing you can do with your left hand is wave goodbye

That might be a bit drastic. There are very few individuals who can really fix somebody's problems right away. It's not even clear yet what the injury is.

I do agree, however, that you should not be playing for 30 minutes! There is a class of injuries that tolerates no activity whatsoever, e.g. shoulder injuries (rotator cuff). They take months to heal, and a single second of activity might destroy the healing process, and one has to start all over again. It is often similar with wrists. I remember when I had wrist problems (primarily caused by tension across the hand when playing chords in a cramped way), I could play for a few minutes, but then the inevitable bit of tension crept in and my wrist started to hurt again. I waited until there was no pain (about one or two days), then started playing again very gently. I paid utmost attention to proper movements. Slowly, over time, my injury healed completely, and I had retrained myself. However, nobody could really help me. Nobody could tell me what to do. I had to feel it for myself. There are obvious signs of wrong movements that any experienced teacher can spot, but often the most natural-looking movements can be dangerous, and awkward-looking movements might turn out to be absolutely comfortable and easy. I started reading about anatomy and proper movements and realized that I did many things wrong. As I mentioned many times before, Thomas Mark's book helped me tremendously, and so did watching the Taubman videos.

Don't be too scared. It is very likely nothing serious, but it is a warning sign that you need to look into analyzing your movements. Practically every pianists ends up injured sooner or later. Unfortunately, not everyone learns from those experiences. They may never heal completely (Rachmaninoff and Gould are perfect examples for that).

Take it slow. Good luck.

[jamie0168]

Does this professor know? That's a difficult call I guess but you'll have to decide whether the professor knows and you've failed to follow his instruction leading to injury or whether he's never corrected bad technique and the best thing you can do with your left hand is wave goodbye  

Actually, this professor DOES know. I must have developed this bad technique over the summer. I know this because he was telling me that I was way too tense with this piece during our first lesson of the semester. I noticed my wrist hurting a week and a half later. So he already knew that I was doing something wrong. I also tried hard to implement his suggestions into my practice time, but unfortunately, teachnique isn't something that changes overnight, or during the course of a week. He's always correcting bad technique. I'm certainly not worried about my professor's teaching skills. It's my understanding skills that I'm worried about.

But I guess that xvimbi has a point. I probably shouldn't be practicing that much. But you guys have got to know frustrating it is to not practice for an entire day! It's not a nice feeling. But I will try harder to take it easy on practice time.

[Appenato]

. In this case, you should also feel tingling in your fingers (particularly thumb and index finger) and perhaps pain radiating up the arm. Holding the wrist straight and not using the hand for a couple of days so that the swelling goes back down should take care of it.

so.. if one experiences tingling... that's a bad sign.... yeh? and should be looked at by a doctor? my mom had CTS so badly that finally a year or so ago she had surgery on both (I think it was both) wrists. She quilted a lot... I had to stop quilting a few years ago because I ruined my wrists doing that and piano.... But now it's weighing more into my wrists and just recently it's gotten so bad that I can't even hold a pencil.  Has anyone seriously been to the doctor and had good suggestions from them aside from altogether ceasing playing the piano for a while?? I'm a performance major and everything I do is hand-intensive, especially because of the music oriented degree.... Last time I went to a specialist he was useless in doing anything for me. ergh...

[leahcim]

Actually, this professor DOES know.

Fair enough - sounds good. 

[xvimbi]

so.. if one experiences tingling... that's a bad sign.... yeh? and should be looked at by a doctor? my mom had CTS so badly that finally a year or so ago she had surgery on both (I think it was both) wrists. She quilted a lot... I had to stop quilting a few years ago because I ruined my wrists doing that and piano.... But now it's weighing more into my wrists and just recently it's gotten so bad that I can't even hold a pencil.  Has anyone seriously been to the doctor and had good suggestions from them aside from altogether ceasing playing the piano for a while?? I'm a performance major and everything I do is hand-intensive, especially because of the music oriented degree.... Last time I went to a specialist he was useless in doing anything for me. ergh...

Wow, I would say you have to see a doctor ASAP! If you have had this for a while and it is now getting so bad that you can't hold a pencil anymore, you are likely already in advanced stages. Stopping to play for a while would be easiest you can do. You don't want to let it advance to where you need surgery. That will put you out of commission for a longer period of time.

What I can't understand at all is that music departments have very little guidance to offer when it comes to injuries, yet practically every musician has them. This field is retarded when it comes to the physiological aspects of making music, pardon my words, but that's how I see it. Everybody gets drilled in cramming as much repertoire in as possible, but nobody gets taught the basics. And the basics of your movements you will need to evaluate. There is no reason anyone should get CTS from playing the piano, provided the movements are correct. Have you talked to people around you?

So, my advice is:

1. Seek medical attention as quickly as you can. Make sure you find an orthopedic surgeon who specializes in the hand. Don't stop until you have found one who can help you. They will most certainly tell you to stop playing for a while. Do not consider this "no help". That is actually the best scenario, and you are probably lucky, if the solution is that simple.

2. Retrain. You can't get rid of CTS if you don't change your technique. That's what led to it in the first place (unless it's something external, like quilting). It might be a good idea to take a Taubman course or work with a Taubman or Alexander teacher if there is nobody else in your department who can help you.

I would advise you not to take this lightly. Many a career was stopped cold in an early phase, because initial warning signs were ignored. The best advice in this respect that I have heard from a seasoned pianist (Andre Watts) was "Never, never, never play through injuries!".

I wish you the best of luck!

[jamie0168]

Well, I went to the doctor today (no, he doesn't specialize in hand or musician injuries, but he's atleast a doctor.) He wasn't much help. He gave me some extra strength inflammatories and told me to rest it. He couldn't tell me how long. It hurts so badly right now. Typing even hurts now. And I swear to the piano gods that I only practiced for maybe ten minutes today.....and it was all ghost playing! (Ghost playing is playing without pressing the keys down, for those of you who don't know.) I can't believe that it's hurting this badly! It's not even enough to make me cry or anything...but it certainly makes me want to cut my hand off! I sure hope these inflammatories work. I just won't practice at all tomorrow. The only thing this hand will touch will be ice. I've got to get this better...I don't know how much longer I can take this!

[xvimbi]

Well, I went to the doctor today (no, he doesn't specialize in hand or musician injuries, but he's atleast a doctor.) He wasn't much help. He gave me some extra strength inflammatories and told me to rest it. He couldn't tell me how long.

One has to be realistic here. What your doctor told you is all one can do at this point. For CTS/RSI, there is really no pill that miraculously wipes away the symptoms. The only way is to stop doing what caused it in the first place. This means first of all rest - complete rest. It looks like you shouldn't be playing at all, not even two minutes. Get a splint as well. Then try to figure out what really caused your condition and retrain.

So, again, when the doctor tells you to rest your hand, he is not of no help. He is actually very helpful, because he is telling you exactly what you should do. If you keep playing and the pain doesn't go away, it's because you are not following doctors order.

Be patient!

[c18cont]

...today,
To see if I still Feel....

John Cont

[lostinidlewonder]

I really think an important part of our piano development is learning how to play uncomfortable things in a comfortable manner.

In all etudes we must control the particular technical aspect it focus on with an effortlessness excecution. A key word is SLOWLY. This etude is often taken too fast to start with and thus people neglect determining what is the softest, most effortless touch we could produce. Also neglecting to carry the hand and using individual fingers to poke at the notes is a no no.

You should NEVER EVER EVER feel stressed of strained or tired from your piano playing. If you do you must stop, of course I wouldn't suggest doing this if you are peforming I would like to think we all can play piano with 100% physical ability until we die, but that is not the case. As we age we get weaker, our body starts to break apart (so i hear from my age 50+ students all the time!) So an idea of efficiency is a key point to our future playing. Yes perhaps at the age of 20 you can play this etude inefficiently and feel tired and drained but make a good sound, but at 50 you wont be ble to do it unless you found the easiest, most effortless way FOR YOU to play this piece.

Doctors can't do much about any muscular and nerve aches you have. They can only prescribe medicine and perhaps reffer you to a physio specialist. The best thing to do is rest and reassess the piece you played to cause the pain. Perhaps if you have no idea how to reduce the pain the piece gives you you are simply not ready for this piece yet. It takes a strong minded person to realise this though, most of us don't like to think we aren't ready for something.

[nightmarecinema]

My advice is to rest it and ice it. I injured myself playing the guitar - tendonitis in my hand and wrist (I think). I iced it everyday and didn't play...well, I played a little, so I know what you're feeling like - but DONT play, at the end I realized and stopped. After about a week it was feeling better, and after probably two the pain was gone.

Tendonitis is not permanent if you stop it early enough, so I would hope that you did in fact catch it in time.

Look on the bright side - at least you don't have focal distonia (which one of my guitar teachers has...after dedicating half his life to it - 8-15 hours a day EVERYDAY)...ouch.

[gaer]

I injured my hands typing. I have never had one moment of discomfort from playing the piano except during a period when I was too busy in a forum I loved. I loathe repetition, and I'm extremely lazy about practicing. I've taught myself to learn very fast, and I continually move from one piece to another. What I do probably would be impossible for a competition pianist, but the idea is to continually change what your hands are doing so that you don't repeat the same movements for long.

This does not work for typing, and that's how I hurt myself. The typing temporarily inflamed my hands so that I had playing problems for the first time in my life.

It got so bad, I could barely play one key at a time (on the piano) with my RH. At the time I was teaching piano and brass, and I needed to accompany a horn solo (Strauss 1st Horn Concerto), and you can imagine my irritation when unable to play the RH. I played only the outline of the accomapiment, playing the rest in my mind, then made it through the accompaniment as written once or twice, to send of an audition tape. It was hell.

I would not recommend this solution to anyone, but here is what I did, and you can't be sure that part of your problems are not coming from typing.

1. I stopped using a mouse. I switched to a 4 button trackball that allows me to skip all sorts of things like double-clicks, holding a button while dragging, etc.

2. I retaught myself to use the trackball with my LH. If you think about it, typing overuses the RH.

3. I cut down on my typing sessions.

4. I got a macro program to do everything in the world possible with one key so that I only have to type text.

I was desperate to find a way to continue talking to people around the world. I have to be very careful, but I seldom get anything more than a twinge now, and when that happens, I quit. Period.

At the same time, as some of the pain went away, I began playing again. I avoided repeating anything, using the time to build up reading skills to the max. I constantly switched movements. A couple minutes doing something with scales (always music, never exercises), something else that used arpeggios, things that jumped, things that contracted and expanded my hands. Things that caused my wrist to move in as many ways as possible (without causing strain) felt good, as if I were stretching everything. I was careful not to overdo.

In other words, mostly I concentrated on any piano music that stretched my hands in any way that was relaxing WHILE playing. I think it took about a year to regain full use of my hands, although I got good results almost immediately.

Doctors were USELESS.

Since then I have done more than a few marathon practice sessions of four or more hours—no pain. There has to be NO pain, or such tiny amounts of pain that are no more than discomfort, and each day it should get better.

But this is only my story. And you can't play through an injury. This will destroy your hands. The only way you can continue to play with this condition is to find a different way to hold your hands and to find music that doesn't hurt, and you have to wait until you are not experiencing serious pain as soon as you touch the piano. I agree with others who say that this would be a great time to explore LH only music. I did this.

If you can find such music that does not hurt, try to figure out WHY it doesn't hurt. And if you have any success, concentrate on the greatest variation of movements you have ever used but discarding anything (for now) that causes pain. If you have not been a relaxed pianist before, now is the time to explore how other people play seemingly without effort.

Try to watch videos of very old pianists who played well. When you are young, you can get away with some really bad habits. When you are old, you can't play that way. See if you can find out how these "old guys" were still able to play with speed, power and accuracy.

And you have to stay away from the piece that seems to have caused you the pain until someone is able to give you an answer (if one exists) to WHY this music is causing the pain.

Good luck. I've been where you are. I was lucky, but I also make huge changes that I did not want to make to regain use of my hands, including playing only with the LH until the irritation in m RH got better.

Gary

[nick]

Well, I went to the doctor today (no, he doesn't specialize in hand or musician injuries, but he's atleast a doctor.) He wasn't much help. He gave me some extra strength inflammatories and told me to rest it. He couldn't tell me how long. It hurts so badly right now. Typing even hurts now. And I swear to the piano gods that I only practiced for maybe ten minutes today.....and it was all ghost playing! (Ghost playing is playing without pressing the keys down, for those of you who don't know.) I can't believe that it's hurting this badly! It's not even enough to make me cry or anything...but it certainly makes me want to cut my hand off! I sure hope these inflammatories work. I just won't practice at all tomorrow. The only thing this hand will touch will be ice. I've got to get this better...I don't know how much longer I can take this!

Stop playing anything! Think about why it is so important for you to hurt yourself so you can play well! Arn't you more important that that? The degree, competition, standing with others etc?
     Your technique is obviously the culprit, so once you heal and begin playing, you must change how you play. I am still experimenting with technique and can only offer my observations as of late: When striking a key, if once the key it hit there is only enough pressure to keep the key down, the wrists seem to be most relaxed. Using weight for tone production on the other hand seems to cause the wrists to work more. (when supporting the weight of the arm by a finger, you can take the other hand and feel the contraction under the wrist). My wrists feel "light" as long as there is no pressure(more than needed to keep the key down) on the keybed once the key is struck.  Something to think about.

Nick

[xvimbi]

Doctors were USELESS.

Now, I have to officially protest against statements like these.

What does it mean "Doctors were USELESS"? When is a doctor useful?

Do people with RSI expect to get cured within a day? Do they find a doctor useful when told "Oh sure you can keep practicing for hours a day"? Does it make them feel better to get some pills?

We have a tendency to screw ourselves up by doing stupid things and expect the doctors to fix it. I would say "We are useless!"

When it comes to RSI, a doctor's actions are limited. Rest is the only cure, perhaps assisted by ice or anti-inflammatories. OK, you would say, one doesn't have to go to a doctor to be told that. Well, one should.

First, one should see a doctor to get a proper diagnosis. It makes a difference whether it is tendonitis, the onset of Carpal-Tunnel-Syndrome, a late stage, focal dystonia or something entirely else. One should know.

Second, assuming one has health insurance, it is a lot cheaper to get treatment through a doctor than to buy it off the street. This includes anti-inflammatories that require prescription, splints (which should be fitted) as well as physiotherapy.

It is vital, though, to go to the RIGHT doctor. Don't go to a family doctor. Hand-specialists are rare, so they have be properly researched. Hand-specialists who play the piano well are of course even rarer, so don't expect to get retrained by doctors (on the other hand, don't expect a Taubman teacher to be able to make a proper diagnosis).

So, please be reasonable with your expectations and act accordingly.

[gaer]

What does it mean "Doctors were USELESS"? When is a doctor useful?

Sorry. I should have qualified that statement.

The doctors I saw were unable to give me any advice that was helpful. I did not have a great deal of money to spend on going to see specialists. If I had found the "right doctor", perhaps I would have gotten very fine advice.

And the doctors I talked to did not specialize in this kind of problem, which they told me. It might look as though I am attacking doctors. I did not mean to do so.

I was merely posting my personal experience, some of the things I did that worked for me. They might not work well for other people. They might not work at all for other people.

[retreating quietly and going to hide…]

Gaer

[xvimbi]

Sorry. I should have qualified that statement.

The doctors I saw were unable to give me any advice that was helpful. I did not have a great deal of money to spend on going to see specialists. If I had found the "right doctor", perhaps I would have gotten very fine advice.

I didn't intend to yell too loud, but wanted to point out this common fallacy

I don't know what advice you got, but if it was "give it some rest", then it was good advice, and the doctor was useful. If the doctor said "I don't know what it is, and I don't know what you should do", then the doctor was not useful.

I am complaining, because most people equate doctors with being "useful" when they prescribe something, and with being "useless" when they don't. It doesn't matter what they prescribe and whether it actually helps or not, as long as they give us something to swallow. It makes us feel good (placebo effect).

Doctors are often deemed useless, or at least annoying, when they suggest to us to change our habits or lifestyle, which is really often the right way. They are deemed useful when they let us get away with what we are doing and point out ways to compensate for our problems, which will only lead to more problems in the long run.

So, to settle this issue I would suggest to give it some rest
 

[c18cont]

Worked for me...Rest is indeed the best answer,

I have learned at my more advanced age to practice in moderation....I am regaining much of my old skill, and managing my wrists well also...

In fact, I must confess xvimbi was the one to encourage this as well as avoiding repetitive actions...a much better result is being accomplished now than hurting myself all the time...

Regards,   John Cont

[xvimbi]

Worked for me...Rest is indeed the best answer,

I have learned at my more advanced age to practice in moderation....I am regaining much of my old skill, and managing my wrists well also...

In fact, I must confess xvimbi was the one to encourage this as well as avoiding repetitive actions...a much better result is being accomplished now than hurting myself all the time...

"Confess" has an aspect of reluctancy

Anyway, I'm glad it worked for you. I sometimes wonder if the things that I recommend actually help anybody

[ted]

These numerous threads on forums about injuries and stress never cease to horrify me. Firstly, I sympathise with you, as it must feel terrible to have to put aside the activity which gives you the greatest joy.

I do not know a lot about technique and most of what I do think I know is probably wrong. However, at fifty-eight I have never experienced any of these horrible things, not a one, despite playing physically hard things for hours on end.

Therefore I feel duty bound to make some sort of amateurish conjecture about what causes this depressingly common phenomenon. Even if I am wrong at least I have tried to help. I think that it possibly has its roots in the simultaneous occurrence of TWO things. Firstly, there exists the repetition of precisely the same movement pattern to an extreme degree, either in the nature of the piece or the mode of practising. I would therefore expect a piece like Winter Wind, for instance, to be potentially more harmful than Mazeppa because its repetition of playing pattern is relentless, whereas the latter piece, though difficult, has much more variety of movement and texture. Secondly there appears to exist a sort of mental stress or compulsion in the person amounting to a monomania. I see this in typists in the workplace - they turn their hands into mindless machines to get to some imposed deadline - it would be surprising if the body did not protest.

I don't imagine these comments will help a great deal because they are another diagnosis the patient does not want to hear, as xvimbi has rightly pointed out.   

[gaer]

I didn't intend to yell too loud, but wanted to point out this common fallacy

I don't know what advice you got, but if it was "give it some rest", then it was good advice, and the doctor was useful. If the doctor said "I don't know what it is, and I don't know what you should do", then the doctor was not useful.

Agreed.

I am complaining, because most people equate doctors with being "useful" when they prescribe something, and with being "useless" when they don't. It doesn't matter what they prescribe and whether it actually helps or not, as long as they give us something to swallow. It makes us feel good (placebo effect).

In fact, a doctor I was teaching told me the same thing.

Doctors are often deemed useless, or at least annoying, when they suggest to us to change our habits or lifestyle, which is really often the right way. They are deemed useful when they let us get away with what we are doing and point out ways to compensate for our problems, which will only lead to more problems in the long run.

So, to settle this issue I would suggest to give it some rest

I understand your point perfectly. However, it was through suggestions given to me by other people who had developed similar hand problems and regained full use of their hands that I found a solution. Many people do not realize, for instance, that a great deal of typing on the computer can be a huge problem.

That was really my only point, apprently not expressed very well or clearly. My intent was never to criticze doctors, believe it or not.

I just wanted to make that clear.

Gary

[xvimbi]

However, it was through suggestions given to me by other people who had developed similar hand problems and regained full use of their hands that I found a solution. Many people do not realize, for instance, that a great deal of typing on the computer can be a huge problem.

I completely agree. If you read through past posts (only if you are interested, of course), you'll see that this is indeed often pointed out. I usually go so far as to remind people that playing the piano does not happen in a vacuum, separated from the rest of life. Any good attitude towards proper movements and posture at the piano must also be maintained for everything else, such as using a computer or watching TV. Many people think it is enough to have good posture while sitting at the piano, and then slouch on the sofa or go play Doom for hours using computer mice. This doesn't work, because the bad effects of slouching will show up during piano practice, and then it is usually the piano playing (or even a particular piece) that is blamed for that, and falsly so. The first step to curing an injury is always finding out what the true causes are.

Happy playing

[gaer]

I completely agree. If you read through past posts (only if you are interested, of course), you'll see that this is indeed often pointed out.

I've read everything I've found so far, for instance all of this thread and links I found, but there is a LOT of "stuff" in this forum.

Ironically, I sometimes get into trouble for typing a word in all caps, because this is just one of a zillion finger saving tricks I use, since making something bold, italicized or adding color uses more keystrokes, even with hot keys. And this formatting is often lost when moving from one editor to another. So I hope no one will misinterpret an occasional all caps word as shouting.

I usually go so far as to remind people that playing the piano does not happen in a vacuum, separated from the rest of life. Any good attitude towards proper movements and posture at the piano must also be maintained for everything else, such as using a computer or watching TV.

This is so true, and my personal experience is that the computer keyboard is potentially much more dangerous for me than the piano. Perhaps this makes everything I posted here absolutely no help, since simply playing the piano daily was a huge part of the recovery of my hands. All the different movements I use feel so natural at the piano. It's one of the few places I feel totally relaxed, or natural. But you can understand my horror when I found out that the computer was destroying my ability to play.

Many people think it is enough to have good posture while sitting at the piano, and then slouch on the sofa or go play Doom for hours using computer mice. This doesn't work, because the bad effects of slouching will show up during piano practice, and then it is usually the piano playing (or even a particular piece) that is blamed for that, and falsly so. The first step to curing an injury is always finding out what the true causes are.

I absolutely agree, and this can be almost impossible. It involves really getting in tune with your own body and discovering exactly what feels good and what hurts. I'm so attuned to potential problems now that even a twinge alerts me to the fact that I have to change something immediately, and I do agree with all here who have recommended resting.

However, if this discussion or any other like it alerts someone else to potential problems BEFORE they happen, that would be a wonderful thing. And we just never know what will help. For instance, if anyone had suggested that using a trackball and changing to the use of it with my LH would make a huge difference, I would have been skeptical. In fact, this may not help another person on the planet. But who knows how many other people might be injuring themselves, right now, overusing a mouse with the right hand?

We just never know!

Gary

[jamie0168]

I really appreciate all the support and advice. I'm actually quite proud of myself: my RH hasn't touched a piano in four days. Okay, I lied...I did touch a piano, but I retained control of myself (I might have played 7 notes total with my RH in the past four days, which isn't bad for a person like me.) I know you guys have to understand...piano is part of my everyday life: if I don't practice piano for a day, it's like not brushing youer teeth or eating, it just doesn't feel right. But I beat it, and my wrist is feeling much better. I don't think it's fully healed, but it's on its way .
You know, these past weeks have been very emotional for me. There was one point when I seriously thought that I might not have what it takes to have a career as a pianist (some might think I was overreacting.) And for a person whose had that dream ever since she was four, you can imagine how heart-breaking that feeling can be.
But I'm over that now, and with hard work and retraining, I think I can pull myself out of this rut. I've got to be careful though...I don't want it to start hurting again just two days after I start playing again. I'll be sure to take it slowly. I'm certain of what caused all that tension in my wrist and that will be my main priority this year: to retrain my technique < Jamie looks down the looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong road ahead>

[burobbi]

hey jamie hi five man. im also another nut who cant get my hands off the piano. it got me into trouble several times. (: cheers.

i get injuries when i cut my nails. i seem to be under this nail-cutting curse. i realised that everytime i cut my nails, i will injure EXACTLY ONE AND ONLY ONE fingernail. the injury may manifest itself in the form of overcuts/painful edges etc. once i cut my nails perfectly one day and i was so happy i started to congratulate myself. the very next day, while picking a ball from a pool table i brushed across this small rusty nail and my right middle had a cut something like 1+mm deep. it refused to stop bleeding for almost half an hour. ow! ): then another time i cut my thumb only. and true enough it got hurt. when i practised the yellow river concerto i chipped my right index nail. since then it always chips regularly and sometimes even to the extent of bleeding etc.

i know someone who practised islamey (balakirev's oriental fantasy) and he mangled his right hand. during a national piano competition semifinals. - - " freaky.

[c18cont]

I should not tell horror stoties I know,

But one should serve to remind us that if we intend to play, we need to take ABSOLUTE care in all we do that has an effect on our hands, first of all..never forgotten.

Know a man locally, that by general agreement of many, was a VERY fine organist...He took off the last two fingers on the left hand, with a radial arm saw, while making some simple item for his wife.....Those saws  are, simply put....,  dangerous, and one must be careful ALL the time you use one.......

John Cont

[jamie0168]

<presently crying> my wrist hurts so badly today. I don't know what I did to it. A person asked me today if I was considering changing my major due to the injury....at first, I thought nothing of it and said "Heck no!" Later, as I was walking down the hallway, I started thinking,  "Oh my God, what if I don't have what it takes to have a career in piano?! If I can't make it two years in college without messing things up, how can I expect to make it my entire career life?" (You'll have to understand that as a person, I'm very emotional) I've been so upset ever since. My wrist is killing me and my lesson is tomorrow. I know he's not going to let me play due to the pain...
Down to business, doctor time! Who would you recommend? an orthopedist, massouse, or chiropractor?

[ted]

It hurts badly even with no playing ? See a doctor immediately. I don't know what the system is where you live, but here I would go to my trusted family doctor first and he would no doubt refer me for tests. I think it has gone on too long to mess around with; it might be something serious.

[xvimbi]

<presently crying> my wrist hurts so badly today. I don't know what I did to it. A person asked me today if I was considering changing my major due to the injury....at first, I thought nothing of it and said "Heck no!" Later, as I was walking down the hallway, I started thinking,  "Oh my God, what if I don't have what it takes to have a career in piano?! If I can't make it two years in college without messing things up, how can I expect to make it my entire career life?" (You'll have to understand that as a person, I'm very emotional) I've been so upset ever since. My wrist is killing me and my lesson is tomorrow. I know he's not going to let me play due to the pain...
Down to business, doctor time! Who would you recommend? an orthopedist, massouse, or chiropractor?

I assume you didn't play the piano. So, why does your wrist hurt? As mentioned in previous posts, it is often an activity away from the piano that is the underlying cause, for example computer work. It may not surface at the computer, so it surfaces at the piano (which will bring everything out that we do wrong in other activities). In my case, a very big contributor was my sleeping habits. I used to sleep with my hand tucked under my chin. It looked awfully cute (so I was told), but lying there for hours with the wrist at 90 degrees was not good. Believe it or not, I had to retrain myself how to sleep! Well, my doctor got me a splint, and slowly over time, my CTS went away. OK, I also got a trackball, and like gaer did, I also trained to do computer work with my left hand. Typing is actually much easter on the wrists if one uses the one or two-finger method, rather than ten fingers.

Anyway, the gist is, look carefully at whatever you are doing throughout the day to identify potential culprits. I would recommend getting a splint in any case (must be fitted by a doctor) to immobilize your wrist, which helps the healing process, because you won't be able to accidentally reinjure yourself.

That means it's time to find a good doctor. Ask around in your music department. Hopefully, somebody else has already done the research and knows a "useful" specialist. The doctor should be an orthopedic surgeon specializing in the hand. The doctor can then recomment a physiotherapist/chiropractor. Where is violinist when we need him (his wife is exactly such a doctor). You could PM him.

Finally, there is no reason to even think about giving up on the piano. It's most likely just a little injury (as long as you don't let it advance). Most pianists have them every now and then. When you go to lesson, take the opportunity to talk about retraining, proper motions, etc. Make a plan for what you could be doing during your injury timeout. There are so many things one can do without losing any time towards advancing pianistic abilities. Use the time constructively, and you'll probably learn things that you would not have otherwise learned.

Good luck!

[gaer]

You know, these past weeks have been very emotional for me. There was one point when I seriously thought that I might not have what it takes to have a career as a pianist (some might think I was overreacting.) And for a person whose had that dream ever since she was four, you can imagine how heart-breaking that feeling can be.

"Having what it takes" has nothing to do with dealing with being injured. Think of athletes who have been close to winning a major championship who had to drop out because their bodies gave out. The fact that you were desperate to keep practicing, even when injured, shows you have drive, ambition, dedication.

Now is your chance to find out how to do more with your mind and less with your hands. Practice for shorter periods but getting more out of the time. And maybe to have more fun, since varying what you practice will have many benefits beyond helping you protect your hands.

But first you have to get well. Good luck!

Gary

[burobbi]

yup. dont overstress yourself.
here in singapore i know this pianist, he is 3 years my senior (my friend's brother). rodney bay. hes an excellent pianist- powerful and with a phenomenal technique. from what i heard he practised balakirev's islamey for one whole year (most unfortunately with (i heard) a wrong technique). when he took part in the national piano & violin competition 2003, during the semi finals, he said he felt something pull in his wrist, and he lost control over his playing; it was simply momentum that kept his fingers going, and he had no control over them. later when he saw the doctor it seemed that some vein or some tendon had hardened somewhere. and like for a long time he couldnt play anything, and got really really tired after a while of playing. even now, 2 years later, i hear from another friend his left hand still does not really listen to him.
you see the severity? do see a doctor. you can basically go to anyone for consultation, but of course, do not let anyone do physical therapy on your wrist unless you are absolutely sure of what the person is doing. it can be risky. (:
cheers.

[lis]

Read Michael Gelbīs "Body Learning" or anything you can find on the Alexander technique... Good Luck!

[jamie0168]

I've got a long list of doctors to see this week. I saw the chiropractor today and he said that I have tennis elbow, which confuses the heck out of me. Does anyone know any musicians (not tennis players) who have gotten this? I live in a small town, so the number of specialized doctors is very limited, but I'm trying to find somone who specializes in the hand.

[gaer]

I've got a long list of doctors to see this week. I saw the chiropractor today and he said that I have tennis elbow, which confuses the heck out of me. Does anyone know any musicians (not tennis players) who have gotten this? I live in a small town, so the number of specialized doctors is very limited, but I'm trying to find somone who specializes in the hand.

I had trouble with BOTH elbows at the exact same trouble as I developed problems in my wrists and fingers. The RH was worse. I used to play tennis a great deal. I never got a tennis elbow from tennis.

Do you see how these things are connected? One thing becomes inflamed, and then you subconsciously begin doing something new, unnatural, and it "spreads". I'm not a doctor, quite obviously, but I'll bet that if you can see a specialist, you will find out that these different problems are connected. I've been typing too much here, so I have to keep it short. I had a bit of inflamation today, but I put in a solid hour at the piano just to "feel what's going on", and the longer I played, the better my hands felt. So in my case I KNOW that my problems still come from too much typing.

Man, I hope you get answers. I have one suggestion, and if it does not work for you, of course you should immediately drop it. But IF you feel better, as if you can safely play some, try experimenting with all sorts of pieces and see if you can identify specific passages or technical challeges that are increasing pain (which means you would instantly stop playing them) and perhaps find some things that seem to relax your hands and body. If nothing works, you have to go back to complete rest, but when my problems were at the worst, using the computer, I was able to find different kinds of music that felt especially good to my hands and movements that seemed to stretch everything in a way that just felt comfortable. During this period I found it most helpful to practice islolated sections from dozens of different selections, all very briefly, constantly switching hands, varying the movements as much as possible.

You have to get in tune with your body as you have never been before.

Once again, good luck!

Gary

[adagio]

last Spring I got the same type of injury you have, as I understand it. 

I saw the doctor right away.  He asked about bad posture, bad technique etc... prescribed rest and physiotherapy for that  epicondilitis or tennis elbow that effects the elbow, wrist and some fingers, for pianists (I had not played tennis). As I was advised, I properly exercised that arm for months. Stopped playing the piano for maybe 12 days. I had no choice, the pain was severe. Slowly, I felt better. Nearly six months later I play the piano every day but with rests every other piece of music.

My teacher, the doctor and I have not pointed out what really began that injury, but I think it can be one piece of music that I used to practice more. The right hand was difficult and I injured myself by overpractising a part of it. But I did not overpractice that much. For me a day without playing the piano is a very sad day.

Yes those injuries can happen and they do. Some will never experience them, good, but some of us know what it is. We all have to be careful.

Good luck and best wishes, I am sure that you will recover completely,