never forget

[Mozartian]

[stevie]

ok....and your point is?

[Torp]

ok....and your point is?

I think the point is that we need to always be cognizant of the fact that wars don't lead to peace.  That's my take anyway...

[BoliverAllmon]

ok....and your point is?

it is the anniversary of 9/11. it was a tragic happening and need to remember the once that were lost.

[Siberian Husky]

but randomly..no one cared

[rob47]

never forget that things a lot worse than 9/11 are also happening in the rest of the  world. A lot more often.

[stevie]

it is the anniversary of 9/11. it was a tragic happening and need to remember the once that were lost.

rob said it, yes it was tragic, but there are many more things thatve happened, lives been lost, that noone cares about.

[musik_man]

rob said it, yes it was tragic, but there are many more things thatve happened, lives been lost, that noone cares about.

So you make a point of not caring about these lost lives.  Nice Plan.

[m1469]

rob said it, yes it was tragic, but there are many more things thatve happened, lives been lost, that noone cares about.

I wouldn't say nobody cares about the other things.  Just because something specific is remembered and contiuously learned from, yet there are many other happenings around us, does not mean it does not deserve the attention.  People remember catestrophic events because they are blarring reminders of what goes on "around us" everyday, but sometimes gets ignored.

I don't remember 9/11 merely for the event itself, and not even for the people lost, though they deserve the rememberence just as anyone else in the world.  I remember 9/11 (and many other things) as a wake up call to be more alert to what I am thinking about, how compassionate or not I am being, what I am cherishing in life, and the fact that I feel I can always do better at living these things. 

As a very small child, I felt "similarly" when an ant was crushed under foot.  But over time, I felt more shocked when an entire colony was ruined. 

Life is simply precious.


m1469

[da jake]

These replies are simply ignorant.

1. Just because other tragedies, some far costlier in human life, are not as talked about as much as 9/11 doesn't mean that  9/11 shouldn't be talked...it means that the others should as well.

Darfur is a much greater humanitarian tragedy than 9/11, but it is by no means more significant.  An American life is worth the same as anyone else. However, the act itself goes beyond a sheer death toll. 

2. 2000 civilians were butchered on American soil during peace time.

Consider the ramifications of that.

9/11 caused domestic and security changes in the United States as well as a HUGE shift in American foreign policy (two countries invaded and occupied.)  The entire world economy felt the shockwaves of the WTC's collapse. Travel to and from the United States will never be the same. The fact is, 9/11 is one of the most significant events we will ever have lived through.

[pianistimo]

i will never forget the hum vees and people who looked in shock at what was obviously a botched military plan.  though i love our country, and i love the effort that goes into having a free nation, our military should never have allowed young boys who patriotically went into the war to die so fast and tragically.  this doesn't make me feel any better about 9/11 or feel any kind of retribution.  we needed a better plan to get saddam, have the people of iraq create government faster, and to get out of there.  i know this is hindsight and i am not a military person, but some kind of special forces? to get saddam?  and then leave.  i don't really know the in's and out's and maybe this was the only way.  i mourn all the deaths and am torn in my heart each time i hear about insurgents.  i want to get our boys out fast.  as fast as possible!  it's terrible that they should die if the country they are fighting to free doesn't really want their help.  at least we put them back from weapons with chemical warheads for maybe 10 years.  (my own guesstimate).  for that, maybe it was a sacrifice that was pondered (as to how many lives would be lost that way vs this way).  also, i believe that many things that we don't understand and don't agree with maybe have a grander scheme or design.  there is place in my heart for israel and i wonder if God is protecting his people there, too, by eliminating so many weapons in iraq and making it a bit safer in the region (excepting the smaller weapons, of course).

[stevie]

So you make a point of not caring about these lost lives.  Nice Plan.

not not caring...but maybe id feel more comfortable being ignorant.

[rimv2]

People care more than they show

Its unfortunate but that speaking ones true feelings is considered awkward and weird

[bernhard]

Since this is a Remembrance Day thread, why not spare a minute for Bhopal? (How many Americans even know what Bhopal is or what happened there?)

The corporate criminals (I guess you could call them terrorists in more than one sense) responsible have taken refuge in and are protected by the US government who (typically) has refused all orders of extradiction by Indian government.

You can read the full story here (randomly chosen amongst many other sites)

https://www.studentsforbhopal.org/what_happened.htm

You can read the corporate business side of the story here (what saints these guys are! It reminds me of the immortal words of Bruce Willis on “Last man standing”: “You may piss on my back, but please don’t tell me it’s raining”).

https://www.bhopal.com/

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[pianistimo]

the state of the world is a mess.  i don't think we are exempt from catastrophe either, as we are seeing.  we must individually do our best and not stress out over the past and the sins of others.  if one gives up or turns their back, it is wrong.  so we have to just keep going (like climbing a mountain) and try to make past mistakes better.

one of my mom's friends decided to learn about environmental engineering, and ever since she graduated has been going around to places like now louisiana and helping clean up and make things better for others.  especially with drinking water.  to fix these problems requires help from people who are knowledgeable about fixing the problems.

my husband's brother, who is a russian orthodox priest, has been in the area and then requesting aid from large corporations for specific things.  also, i think counseling victims and in general helping as much as he can to get aid to victims.  people on our block are having yard sales and donating the proceeds to the red cross.  also, at school, penny auctions. and, some restaurants have donated a day or two of complete proceeds to the victims of Katrina.  maybe as piano teachers, we should think about donating some of our income and asking students to make the check out to red cross or whatever charity instead of us. 

for the still current war in iraq, maybe encouraging the spouses left at home - and praying.  the power of prayer is a matter of life and death sometimes.

[rimv2]

Since this is a Remembrance Day thread, why not spare a minute for Bhopal? (How many Americans even know what Bhopal is or what happened there?)

The corporate criminals (I guess you could call them terrorists in more than one sense) responsible have taken refuge in and are protected by the US government who (typically) has refused all orders of extradiction by Indian government.

You can read the full story here (randomly chosen amongst many other sites)

https://www.studentsforbhopal.org/what_happened.htm

You can read the corporate business side of the story here (what saints these guys are! It reminds me of the immortal words of Bruce Willis on “Last man standing”: “You may piss on my back, but please don’t tell me it’s raining”).

https://www.bhopal.com/

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Way to make a dreary topic more dreary, guy.

And wouldnt a refusal of extradiction cause more trouble than it's worth. That is unless there was a lack of evidence to merit throwing to the mob. Or maybe this country is a stupid as the world thinks it is. Or maybe just its government. Or maybe little girls can come out the tv screen.

[da jake]

Union Carbide was irresponsible and evil in their comportment in India and the disaster Bhopal was a terrible tragedy.

Still, American investment and (even outsourcing of US jobs) is improving the lives of countless millions in the developing.

Globalization is the way of the future.

Bernhard: Nice attempt to shift focus away from an American tragdedy by tacitly suggesting that Americans are as bad as the people who attacked them on 9/11.

Americans are baby-killers! Imperialists! Bush = Hitler! End the Palestinian Holocaust! IDF = SS! OMG1!111one Troops out of Iraq now!!!

[BoliverAllmon]

Union Carbide was irresponsible and evil in their comportment in India and the disaster Bhopal was a terrible tragedy.

Still, American investment and (even outsourcing of US jobs) is improving the lives of countless millions in the developing.

Globalization is the way of the future.

Bernhard: Nice attempt to shift focus away from an American tragdedy by tacitly suggesting that Americans are as bad as the people who attacked them on 9/11.

Americans are baby-killers! Imperialists! Bush = Hitler! End the Palestinian Holocaust! IDF = SS! OMG1!111one Troops out of Iraq now!!!

LOL

[da jake]

Perspective

In India, the Pew study surveyed 2,042 respondents between May 1 and May 29, 2005. All respondents were randomly selected from people between the ages of 18 and 65 living in urban areas. As with the data gathered in China, the survey researchers have a 95 percent confidence that their error rates based on sampling are within plus or minus two percentage points.

Positive opinions of the United States have jumped in India to 71 percent of respondents in 2005, compared to 54 percent in 2002. Positive opinions of Americans have also increased to 71 percent, from 58 percent three years ago.

Indians opinions of Americans' qualities are high: 86 percent of Indians surveyed labeled Americans as inventive; 81 percent find Americans hard working; and 58 percent said Americans are honest. When asked where a young person should go to live a good life, the U.S. was listed more often than any other country (38 percent).

When asked about their own country, 83 percent of Indian respondents said they believed that India was held in generally high regard around the world, with 13 percent disagreeing. Satisfaction with the way things are going in their own country rose from 9 percent in 2002 to 41 percent in 2005.

[BoliverAllmon]

Perspective

very true.

more perspective

unemployment rate in US=4.9%

rate in Spain=over 20%

[xvimbi]

very true.

more perspective

unemployment rate in US=4.9%

rate in Spain=over 20%

Wow, did they really jump from 11.4% in 2003 and 10.4% in 2004 to >20%?

What are your sources?

[thalbergmad]

And in what year

[rimv2]

A tragedy that happens a in a country of great power and many errors is not really a tragedy.

Didnt you all get the memo?

It was sent out with the "Communism, the Better Alternative" and "Rich People Actually Care About People Other Than Themselves" reports.

[anodibu]

unemployment rate in US=4.9%

rate in Spain=over 20%

unemployment rate in US Q2 2005 = 5.1%
rate in Spain = 9.6%

according to https://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/41/13/18595359.pdf

[prometheus]

The US is the only state that has been found guilty of terrorism by the world court.

[da jake]

Nobody cares what the "World Court" says.

[rob47]

there is no doubt the firefighters/random civilians who died helping others will always be remembered.  It was a huge tragedy.  I will never forget those who helped out, sacrificing their lives for, in most cases, complete strangers in need.

I just randomly hate everything, on both sides, that happened afterwards.  It makes it an even greater tragedy.

[Mozartian]

there is no doubt the firefighters/random civilians who died helping others will always be remembered.  It was a huge tragedy.  I will never forget those who helped out, sacrificing their lives for, in most cases, complete strangers in need.

I just randomly hate everything, on both sides, that happened afterwards.  It makes it an even greater tragedy.

I agree.

Please people, can we honour the dead without getting into the politics? Please?

[rimv2]

We could try. But every other member from a foreign country will try to tell us we are not allowed to . Sometimes some foreigners' attitudes and half assed notion about this country are agrevating, but, then again, sometimes they are right on the mark... ehem...  bush... cough....

after 9/11 he said a few words to the people then left

after the war on Iraq he said a few words to people and pretends like it doesnt go on... endlessly

after 2004's hurricanes he said something to the people then left

after katrina he just looked around then left

What has this bloak actually done?

Really?

[prometheus]

Nobody cares what the "World Court" says.

Of course the US is going to say it is irrelevant since they judged against them in the case of US vs Nicoragua

I understand that to the US the international community is 'nobody' when they don't say what the US wants them to say. After the US refused to pay the fine the UN general assembly accepted a resolution putting pressure on the US. Only El Salvadore and Israel voted with the US on this isssue. The first because it was involved in the US vs Nicragua conflict and the other because they need the US to veto resolutions to make sure the UN doesn't take actions against Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States

Before this negative ruling the US accepted the ICJ. After the ruling was not in their favour they stepped out.

After the US refused to pay the fine and after mocking the ICJ, UN and the world community they increased terrorist activities and the CIA ordered the attack of 'soft targets' ie civillians and in total about 30 000 people were killed, though there have been claims of 57000.

And this isn't the only case where the US secretly supported rebellions by right wing militants against democratic left wing oriented regimes they didn't really like. The US removed and put regimes in place in almost every south american country.




Surely, Osama Bin Laden killed no one in 9/11. Those weren't real people in those towers. They were heretics, unbelievers, in other words 'nobodies'. 

[perfect_pitch]

These replies are simply ignorant.

1. Just because other tragedies, some far costlier in human life, are not as talked about as much as 9/11 doesn't mean that  9/11 shouldn't be talked...it means that the others should as well.

Darfur is a much greater humanitarian tragedy than 9/11, but it is by no means more significant.  An American life is worth the same as anyone else. However, the act itself goes beyond a sheer death toll. 

2. 2000 civilians were butchered on American soil during peace time.

Consider the ramifications of that.

9/11 caused domestic and security changes in the United States as well as a HUGE shift in American foreign policy (two countries invaded and occupied.)  The entire world economy felt the shockwaves of the WTC's collapse. Travel to and from the United States will never be the same. The fact is, 9/11 is one of the most significant events we will ever have lived through.

I think what everyone is trying to say is that when something bad happens to America, they go to great deals to make sure that the whole world has to care.

As other people said, 9/11 is not the worst tragedy ever to have happened, but the americans make such a great deal as if other countries don't have problems and horrors of their own. EG... The Bali Bombings, do any of the americans know what the heck happened then???

[da jake]

And this isn't the only case where the US secretly supported rebellions by right wing militants against democratic left wing oriented regimes they didn't really like. The US removed and put regimes in place in almost every south american country.

Why are you involving Cold-War era foreign policy in this discussion? The US' main goal was stopping the spread of Communism, which they did successfully. In retrospect, they made a lot of mistakes, killing a LOT of people (Chile being the biggest all-round blunder, imho). But the choices made in getting rid of Communist influence were the only conceivable ones at the time. If you had the historical perspective you would be able to make the distinction.

And yes, the international community is a joke, in every way. The UN spends their time haranguing Israel about "human rights abuses" while Syria sits on the council. Huge corruption (Oil for food scandal), shocking ineptitude (millions died through failure in Srebrenica, Rwanda, and now currently in Darfur and elsewhere)...and we care what these powerless morons think? What a joke.

PS: I'm not even American

[prometheus]

Why are you involving Cold-War era foreign policy in this discussion? The US' main goal was stopping the spread of Communism, which they did successfully.
 In retrospect, they made a lot of mistakes, killing a LOT of people (Chile being the biggest all-round blunder, imho). But the choices made in getting rid of Communist influence were the only conceivable ones at the time. If you had the historical perspective you would be able to make the distinction.

The goal does not justify the means. If you observe what happened in the anti-communist frenzy you will observe total paranoia and delusion in some US policy makers. The whole fear for communism was totally blown out of proportions. Those choices weren't the only ones conceivable. They were madness back then. Plus killing innocents is never acceptable. Let alone ordering your contras to attack civillian targets.

And yes, the international community is a joke, in every way. The UN spends their time haranguing Israel about "human rights abuses" while Syria sits on the council.

Its just a cycle, the fact that Syria sits on the concil is meaningless. The UN can't do anything to fix the Israel problem because of the US veto on the SC.

Huge corruption (Oil for food scandal), shocking ineptitude (millions died through failure in Srebrenica, Rwanda, and now currently in Darfur and elsewhere)...and we care what these powerless morons think? What a joke.

Things went terribly wrong with the most absurd situation being Iraq. Lets not forget that several countries are guilty of these. But I do not understand. Surely doing totally away with the UN would be way way worse. Rather than attack 'powerless' morons, lets look at who is blocking action in the UN. The US is directly involved with all of our examples. I am not saying they are entirely and solely responsible for all of these situations. But if they at least tried surely half of them would have turned out better.


But this all has nothing to do with it. The international court made a decision and only El Salvarode and the Israel agreed with the US while 20000 people were being killed with support and by the US. Frankly, your 'nobody' was a huge majority of the countries representing basicly all people of the world living outside those three countries.

Its not that they didn't know or that they made a mistake they weren't aware of or that they had no choice. And the regime in Nicaragua wasn't even communist, they just were too socialistic for the US. And they continue to stick their neck and power into every conflict if something is to be gained. And everytime the goals justify their means. Sometimes, while US diplomats are trying hard to resolve the situation peacefully the pentagon has people trying to excalate the situation to the advantage of the US.
The US is to be as responsible for its actions as I am.

If you are involved with so much conflicts where innocent people are killed it should be no suprise if some people descide to attack back. Frankly, the US is a democracy so the people are responsible for their government. It would be hard for me to say the people that died in 9/11 are innocent if it wasn't for the major flaws in the degree of democracy in the US.

In terms ocasualties 9/11 is meaningless. In terms of reaction and change in the world, its a major event. It just tells us that one US citizen equals 1,000 people from a third world country, maybe even more.

[da jake]

The goal does not justify the means. If you observe what happened in the anti-communist frenzy you will observe total paranoia and delusion in some US policy makers. The whole fear for communism was totally blown out of proportions. Those choices weren't the only ones conceivable. They were madness back then. Plus killing innocents is never acceptable. Let alone ordering your contras to attack civillian targets.

McCarthyism was pretty messed up, but I think paranoia was inextricable from the problems that Western World was facing against Communism. You can't say that it wasn't warranted. Curtailing of civil liberties i.e., suspension of Habeas Corpus in Civil War, internment of Japanese, Fighting communism in the cold war , and now the Patriot Act and invasion, occupation, and reconstruction of hell-holes are all ugly solutions that were/are ultimately better than the alternative. Just because these solutions are hideous doesn't mean that they are wrong.

Again, killing civilians by accident is acceptable when it ultimately saves far far more in the long run. I could give about a dozen examples. Inaction or incompetitence ala UN is far worse, in my opinion. Look up Srebrenica, Rwanda, Darfur etc...

Its just a cycle, the fact that Syria sits on the concil is meaningless. The UN can't do anything to fix the Israel problem because of the US veto on the SC.

Yeah! The UN is a hopeless, corrupt, powerless body that the US doen't take seriously (with good reason).

Things went terribly wrong with the most absurd situation being Iraq. Lets not forget that several countries are guilty of these. But I do not understand. Surely doing totally away with the UN would be way way worse. Rather than attack 'powerless' morons, lets look at who is blocking action in the UN. The US is directly involved with all of our examples. I am not saying they are entirely and solely responsible for all of these situations. But if they at least tried surely half of them would have turned out better.

Mistakes were made in Iraq, but the whole plan hasn't failed. A free and consensual democracy is emerging, despite all the whack sh*t that is happening over there. Just wait and see!

The UN in theory is great, but in practice is a complete joke. I think the whole institution should be rebuilt from the ground out. That may end up happening.

But this all has nothing to do with it. The international court made a decision and only El Salvarode and the Israel agreed with the US while 20000 people were being killed with support and by the US. Frankly, your 'nobody' was a huge majority of the countries representing basicly all people of the world living outside those three countries.

I don't care! Honestly, what bearing does this ridiculous ruling have on reality. (respect my alliteration) 

If you are involved with so much conflicts where innocent people are killed it should be no suprise if some people descide to attack back. Frankly, the US is a democracy so the people are responsible for their government. It would be hard for me to say the people that died in 9/11 are innocent if it wasn't for the major flaws in the degree of democracy in the US.

This is absurd. Are you somehow suggesting that people killed on 9/11 were somehow guilty? The Islamic fundamentalists who attacked the US and ultimately want to destroy it will keep doing that, regardless of the United States' Foreign Policy. As smart-guy Victor Davis Hanson said, (im paraphrasing) "They hate [the US] for who we are and what we represent, not what we purportedly do".

In terms ocasualties 9/11 is meaningless. In terms of reaction and change in the world, its a major event. It just tells us that one US citizen equals 1,000 people from a third world country, maybe even more.

OK. You've established that you don't have any historical perspective and aren't able to understand world politics. Im satisfied.

[xvimbi]

The UN in theory is great, but in practice is a complete joke. I think the whole institution should be rebuilt from the ground out. That may end up happening.

It won't. The US is too big a player in world politics. Without a strong US committment, there will be no functional UN. Sending Bolton to the UN has made this clear to everybody. The US is obviously not interested in giving any power to anybody else. Either things get decided in Washington, or they don't get decided at all, or decisions will be ignored. The UN have their headquarters in the US, but support from the US was practically non-existing over the decades. If the US had any good intentions, the UN would have worked from the beginning. It's a good way for the US to keep tabs on the rest of the world and then go along, as long as US interest are fulfilled, or boycot everything as soon as there is resistance to the US' stance.

It's the same with the World Court. The US hates the idea of somebody else making decisions for them or over them. That's why it is so important for them to keep the economic and military edge. Once they can't invade or bribe other countries anymore, they won't have the means to affect world politics to their liking. They are scared of China becoming an economic power that would rival their own. It was almost hilarious to watch Congress gasp for air when the Chinese intended to buy an American oil company.

Let's face it, if the US wanted to, the UN would work, the International Court would work, Kyoto would work, and there would probably be world peace, but the US doesn't want to, because it would empower the rest of the world and thus weaken the US' position.

[BoliverAllmon]

unemployment rate in US Q2 2005 = 5.1%
rate in Spain = 9.6%

according to https://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/41/13/18595359.pdf

I can stand corrected I was using my economics book. It is a new edition. I may be quoting it wrong. I thought it was spain that was over 20%.

here is something though. GDP in USA=36,731
CHina=966
India=486

people in mexico make more than those "boomin" economies. got from here.

https://www.studentsoftheworld.info/infopays/rank/PIBH2.html

[da jake]

here is something though. GDP in USA=36,731
CHina=966
India=486

Wrong. Has to be per capita.

[BoliverAllmon]

Wrong. Has to be per capita.

yeah per capita. I didn't write that in. OOPS. yeah our GDP is somewhere around 11 trillion. also I got the spain's unemployment thing from a report from 2002. it wasn't twenty percent more like 16-17%

boliver

[rimv2]

A tragedy is not just a tragedy when it hits close to home.

Giant wave hits the Asian coast.

"Oh my god how terrible, we must help them"

People drown and blow up in america.

"Serves them right, and how dare they even contemplate a memorial"


Note to the rest of the world: When an american says never forget, that american is more than likely talking to other americans, so shut up an and let them have their memorial

"But america picks on other countries."

NO. the american government picks on other countries.

Americans are just trying to get by with the ever rising cost of living.

Americans dont care about what any country in the world is doing as surely the same sentiment is felt by many others, less they be of a nation currently invovlved its a conflict.

All these accusatory arguments as to why America cant have this day as its memorial is just point less.

Or at least show the people a little courtesy by saying "the us goverment blablabla" and not  " Americans/america blablablabla"

they run the foreign crap but do not truly represent the people