Are beliefs inseparable from identity, and are values the same as beliefs ?

[m1469]

Well, that's my question.


m1469 

[Torp]

Yes and no, respectively.  That's my answer.

Jef

[m1469]

Yes and no, respectively.  That's my answer.

Jef

Hey, Mr, that's sneaky.  I forgot I asked this question... LOL.  I was so frustrated with the religious debate thread that I started thinking about this stuff and decided that part of why people get into such arguments with it is because we, perhaps, see our beliefs as our very identity.  It then becomes difficult not to take things personally, and to just discuss different viewpoints.

bye  bye,
m1469

[pianistimo]

i would say that our identity, if we choose it to be, is with God.  without Him we could not have life by ourselves.  emergency rooms are full of praying people.  when everything goes well, we think we can do it all ourselves.  when we realize we can't, we can have hope in God.  there is no other hope.  my identity has changed from wanting to be 'like man (not a man)' to being 'like God.'

i think there's a scripture that says 'as a man thinks, so he is.'  that must mean how you think affects your belief system, which then affects what you do (values) and prioritizes it, leaving you a definate identity for others to see.  sometimes it's not very perfect, but God says that he'll make up the slack.  i want to have the fruits of the spirit:  though i don't in fullness yet:  love, joy, peace, longsufferring, etc. i cor 13

[6ft 4]

my identity has changed from wanting to be 'like man (not a man)

rofl

[pianistimo]

ok laugh now.  i'll sick thalbergmad on you.  i don't care how tall you are.  he will beat you.  (goes back to calm bible reading).

[Torp]

I was so frustrated with the religious debate thread that I started thinking about this stuff and decided that part of why people get into such arguments with it is because we, perhaps, see our beliefs as our very identity.

There's no reason to get frustrated.  The debate simply "is."  The reason you're frustrated is because you're allowing yourself to get "attached" to the debate.  It is nothing more than words on a page.  Granted, the players on the stage often take their parts very seriously, but, in the end, whether you allow the play to effect your emotions and your being is your choice.  Think of the debate as an anology for life.  The key to happiness is to "be" who you are, regardless of the circumstances.  If your happiness or state of being is determined by your situation then you will always be at the mercy of the situation.  ("You" and "your" are meant in relation to the general population, not meant as an "attack" on YOU specifically).

Our beliefs are very much a part of our identity.  That is why changing them is often times a seemingly insurmountable task.  Nonetheless, our beliefs are something that occur on the conscious level.  There is much that occurs on the unconscious level that is part of our identity.  In retrospect I might say that beliefs are inseparable from our identity but I don't think they represent our complete identity.

Many scholars have spoken about the benefit of moving along a path guided by a vision of our "higher" self.  Pianistimo views this representation as God, I do not.  Her spiritual guide on her journey to betterment is the Bible and her accomanying faith.  My spiritual guides have come in many forms.  Some from the Bible, some from Buddhist and Taoist teachings, some from life situations, etc. I do not see the bible as the ultimate authority.  I simply see it as a document that provides a tremendous amount of insight into human behavior and thought.  For me, other such documents exist.  When I "argue" in the religious debate room it often helps me to further clarify and reaffirm why I believe what I believe.  I assume that the exercise does very much the same thing for pianistimo.  This, unfortunately, is often the case with arguments.  No one ever really convinces the other person of anything.

I had attempted, earlier in the religious discussion, to move beyond the whole religion vs. science debate.  I think it is fruitless.  I do believe that every human being is on a spiritual path.  Unfortunately, we spend so much time debating about the validity of someone's proposed destination we never endeavor to gleen the really useful information about how someone's journey is progressing.  We spend so much time trying to convince others of the errors of their ways that we totally miss the potential lessons they may have to offer us.  Again, we get attached and miss the benefits of detached observation.

While I disagree almost completely with pianistimo's beliefs and path, I respect immensely her devotion to it.  For her, she has a clear guide and a strong ship to weather the most severe of storms.  Continuing the metaphor, however, I cannot (perhaps better, will not) sail on her ship.  It doesn't work for me; there are too many inconsistencies with what I've seen and, yes, with what I have come to believe.

I probably should have posted all of this in the religious debate room; so I apologize if I've hijacked or diverted this thread from its original intent.

The important thing about values is to determine what ours are.  A good exercise is to obtain a list of values and then rank each of them based on two factors.  First, how important to you is that particular value.  Second, using the same ranking system, rate yourself on which values you live by.  The big questions we're trying to answer is, "Are our behaviors consistent with our values?"  If we learn that our behaviors are out of balance with our values....well....we've got some interesting choices to make, don't we? 

Jef

[pianistimo]

yes! rating oneself is much more fruitful that arguing or fighting or trying to change someone else.  it's like seeing a speck in another's eye and not the beam in ones own.  for messianic jews, this time of year is full of introspection.  the fast of yom kippur is about humbling oneself and realizing the power God has in judgement.  before the day, people try to make amends with people that they are 'in the outs' with, clear debts, and make themselves ready to appear before the congregation and God with a clear heart and conscience as much as possible. 

of course, we are never totally clear of concience without some sort of repayment for sin.  our sin is always with us.  we need someone to cover our sin.  in buddism, you may reach a sort of enlightenment, but it is a false kind of emptying of oneself.  you don't do it for the right reason (for God's glory) but for others to admire and say that 'you look holy.'  well, only God is holy.  so i disagree that there are many ways.  i believe there is only one way.  of course, this makes me look like i will fight a war to win.  but, i don't have to fight, because God will do the fighting when He returns.  He is said to return as a true King with a real army and a real mission, and He will win the war.   it has to be a war because the change needed is radical.

rev.20:1 "and i saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.  and he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not DECEIVE THE NATIONS any longer, until the thousand years were complete...."  this is a little bit about what the war is fighting.  deception.  of whole nations. 

when people come to know God and His ways, they will be shocked and disappointed at the deception of their minds and the blessings they missed for not following Jesus Christ's example, and setting another one up instead.  "blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first ressurrection; over these the second death has no power (SECOND DEATH - this is coming to those who believe other religions even when Christ returns - it is a war with casualities although EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON HIS NAME even at that time WILL BE SAVED).  they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign WITH Him for a thousand years...."  we have a future beyond death.  not a sort of neverending cycle of reincarnations.  that would mean that we never truly die.  this is a deception.  or, that we can reach enlightenment without the help of the Holy Spirit. 

[m1469]

Jef, your response is very thoughtful.

There's no reason to get frustrated. The debate simply "is." The reason you're frustrated is because you're allowing yourself to get "attached" to the debate. It is nothing more than words on a page. Granted, the players on the stage often take their parts very seriously, but, in the end, whether you allow the play to effect your emotions and your being is your choice. Think of the debate as an anology for life. The key to happiness is to "be" who you are, regardless of the circumstances. If your happiness or state of being is determined by your situation then you will always be at the mercy of the situation. ("You" and "your" are meant in relation to the general population, not meant as an "attack" on YOU specifically).

Okay, yes, I was frustrated with the debate thread.  And to the senses, it is simply words on the page.  I guess what's bothering me is that these words reflect attitudes.  The part of it all that I am struggling with the most, is that there is this constant desire, it seems, to find out who is better, stronger, more right.  It is not just the religious thread, it's the threads which try to constantly compare the sexes, races, who is the most... who is better... and in the end it's the attitudes behind them.  There is often not "the spirit of" seeking understanding (though I suppose for some, understanding may result).  And this is in the world, not just in a given forum.  And, yes, I am having a time of struggling with the world.  I think I have been in constant bewilderment and disbelief since I became conscious of my being, which I did quite young. Why do we do this ?  Where does it get us ?  I find myself thinking somewhere in my core, "this can't possibly be the way life is" (all of the seeming problems of the world).  And in some crazy way, I do indeed see it differently (I think there is perfection), but I rarely know how to express this (it is one of my motivations in the arts).

You are right, or, I agree with your concept above.  And, I realize that I need more of this as it relates to life itself; seeing a deeper sense of reality (is how I interpret the 'stage' part of it all).  In my relationship with the world, I have realized for a while the need to not let the circumstances "around me" determine my happiness.  I have been able to live this at times, however, I do not wish to become calloused nor neglect my desire in life to live generously (for me that is not living, either).  I suppose there is some kind of balance to be found.

The rest of your message, I read, and I need to digest it some more. 

I probably should have posted all of this in the religious debate room; so I apologize if I've hijacked or diverted this thread from its original intent.

This was a perfect place to have posted these thoughts, and I am appreciative.

The important thing about values is to determine what ours are. A good exercise is to obtain a list of values and then rank each of them based on two factors. First, how important to you is that particular value. Second, using the same ranking system, rate yourself on which values you live by. The big questions we're trying to answer is, "Are our behaviors consistent with our values?" If we learn that our behaviors are out of balance with our values....well....we've got some interesting choices to make, don't we?

he he... yeah.  I have been working with this exercise and have found I am searching... or... should I say finding my soul.

m1469

[pianistimo]

it's a war with ourselves we are talking about, not peace, right now.

matt. 25:32 "and all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats..."  (this is not a platonic attitude that God has)  "and He will put the sheep on His right hand, and the goats on His left."  (a separation at that TIME)

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.  for i was hungry and you gave me something to eat; i was thirsty and you gave me drink; I was a stranger and you took me in; naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to me."

this is where we do self examination.  not in terms of what serves us and our own purposes of enlightenment.  of course, there are many people who ARE enlightened and that are peaceful people.  this is not for me to judge - who is righteous and who is not.  but someday ALL WILL COME BEFORE THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF GOD.  it is then, that it will be TOO LATE - so it is not a matter of one side trying to be better than another.  it is a warning to those that have time and chance to repent and turn to God.

[Torp]

It is not just the religious thread, it's the threads which try to constantly compare the sexes, races, who is the most... who is better... and in the end it's the attitudes behind them.  There is often not "the spirit of" seeking understanding (though I suppose for some, understanding may result).  And this is in the world, not just in a given forum. 

Yes, the world does seem to be very much interested in clear winners, right vs wrong, black vs white.  I long ago gained comfort that my spritual path did not fit within the confines of the small box provided by religions based on biblical theologies.  Quotations of those theologies have never served any purpose other than to strengthen my belief in my own path.  I believe that much stife in the world would disappear if people would seek to understand people's own unique paths instead of trying to force their own upon them.  We should not only embrace the differences among people, we should encourage them.  We should encourage the growth of the individual in order for them to further their own unique strengths.  We often "celebrate" diversity only so long as those that are "diverse" from us are diverse in ways that are acceptable to us.

To me, interacting with people is like interacting with music.  The most rewarding musical experiences I've had are with music that was the most difficult for me to understand initially.  I had to change and grow in order to really understand the music.  The same can be said for people.  It is not the things I share in common with people that really make them interesting, it's the things that I don't share, that are new, that are challenging.  This makes me take a new look at who I am and what I believe.  It is a tapestry against which I can view my own limited beliefs and feelings.  It helps me realize that it is all just perspective.  And perspective is just like anything else, the more we stay attached to it, the more difficult it is to simply see and enjoy what is really happening around us.

[m1469]

To me, interacting with people is like interacting with music.  The most rewarding musical experiences I've had are with music that was the most difficult for me to understand initially.  I had to change and grow in order to really understand the music.  The same can be said for people.  It is not the things I share in common with people that really make them interesting, it's the things that I don't share, that are new, that are challenging.  This makes me take a new look at who I am and what I believe.  It is a tapestry against which I can view my own limited beliefs and feelings.  It helps me realize that it is all just perspective.  And perspective is just like anything else, the more we stay attached to it, the more difficult it is to simply see and enjoy what is really happening around us.

I appreciate this analogy. 

m1469

[stevie]

barely possible if at all mildly, but infinitely fairly when upon once becomes reminded of the possibility of barely possible mildness.